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undersun8
Hi.

I'm posting this on behalf of a friend. They are planning on consulting a lawyer but I was wondering what to expect and if there is any obvious route to be taken. As I'm not the person who was stopped I don't have details of the ticket but can try to get those if it would help.

My friend was driving a friends car with permission late last night. As he works for a rental company he is insured to drive any car with permission of the driver. He was stopped in a 30mph zone by an officer who claimed he was speeding. My friend admitted that he was doing close to 35mph but no more. The officer claimed he was doing 40. My friend asked to see proof via photo or speed gun and also asked if whatever they were using had recently been re calibrated. The officer said something along the lines of 'No but both me and my partner witnessed it and can use our eyes to tell.' As far as I'm aware they have no image of his speed. From what I can gather when he receives information on this in the post he needs to ask for the photo. Is this correct?

Once stopped he was questioned on if he is the owner of the car, to which he said no and named the registered owner. He informed the officer that he had permission and the officer accepted this. He was then told he was showing as no insurance, that he was not insured to drive another car on his own personal policy. He believed he was but informed the officer if that was the case then he is insured through business insurance. He rang his boss to confirm and passed the phone to the officer. The officer stated that he had no way of knowing that the man on the phone was his boss, despite him being able to provide insurance information, and hung up the phone. The officer then informed my friend that he was issuing a fine of £200 plus 6 points for no insurance and 3 points for speeding. He also seized the car, which will incur a further fine to release. My friend refused to sign the ticket as he did not accept the terms. On the ticket it had several options, something along the lines of 'person has surrendered the license etc' and 'person has not surrendered the licence etc.' The officer crossed all of these options off and told my friend not to bother showing insurance documents at the police station within 7 days as the matter was going to court.

Obviously he is seeking legal advice but based on those details I was wondering if we could get some advice as to what steps should be taken and if it is worth showing the insurance documents at the station anyway.

Thanks and if more detailed is needed I can try to get that from him.
Aretnap
Regarding the speeding: there's no point asking for photos if there aren't any. There's no requirement for photos to be taken or even for a speed gun to be used - a court is entitled to convict someone of speeding based solely on the opinion of two witnesses if they're sufficiently credible - see Graham. If he admitted doing 35-ish then he's doubly stuffed - 35 is still speeding, and in terms of the likely penalty the difference between 35 and 40 is not really worth arguing about.

The no insurance is the more serious matter: first thing he needs to do is read the documents thoroughly and confirm (preferably with the insurer rather than his boss) that he was covered in the circumstances. Make sure there are no exclusions to his driving other vehicles cover - such as a requirement that the other car must have its own policy, or that he must be driving it in the course of his work.
undersun8
Ok so he would have to accept the 3 points for speeding. I assume then there is no way they are likely to offer a speed awareness course instead?

Regarding the insurance assuming the policy checks out should he take it to the police station or wait until they send him the court summons?

Thanks for the help.

I don't know if it is relevant or at all helpful but due to him being a young driver and working for a rental company he drives a reasonable number of nice cars. He is stopped regularly due to this, including one incident of 4 times in the space of 3 hours. Two of these times were by the same patrol car. I was wondering if he has records of the number of times he is stopped if that would be at all helpful should the case go to court or if it is irrelevant.


Thanks again.
andy_foster
Send three and fourpence, we're going to a dance.

If he was required to produce a relevant certificate of insurance at the side of the road, it is an offence to fail to do so unless he produces one at a police station within 7 days. This is a separate offence to the potential driving without insurance offence. IIRC if he was not required to produce a certificate at the side of the road, the seizure would be unlawful.
Gan
He must check his personal policy anyway. Some allow driving of all cars, others only if the car has its own policy. If in doubt, he needs to contact the insurance company and ask if he was insured at the time. Ask for written confirmation.

If it checks out OK he must go to the police station and tell them that he's rejecting the FPN for the insurance and wants it to be dealt with by the court. If he doesn't it will be recorded as an unpaid fine and increased.

He can tell them why and produce any certificate,policy or letter if he has one. That may be enough to persuade them to drop it.
undersun8
Thanks for the responses.

The speeding was not pursued as he was not given a ticket for the speeding at the side of the road.

Having checked his personal policy he is not insured through that but the business policy looks as though it will cover him.

He was not asked to produce the insurance at the side of the road. He is going to try to show the police his insurance policy and then see if he will still need to produce it in court. If he goes to court his lawyer will look into him not being asked to product insurance.

Thanks again.
jobo
the thing he needs to do quite quickly is confirm that he was covered on the companies insurance

im not sure from your account5 if he got a fpn for the insurance or not ? if he did, then he needs to produce his DL at a police station in 7 days, if the copper has crossed this off and the bit about surrendering it, its not an fpn and it will be going to court (probably)

some forces have an automatic policy of refunding money for ceasure if it turn out they were wrong, so if he was insured he needs to write to them asking for his money back/ return of car with out payment, with other its far more complicated

untill we knopw ecactly what he has been given its hard to say more, can you get him to post himself ?
sgtdixie
Re requesting insurance at the roadside. The legislation is quite clear that to seize there must be grounds to believe the vehicle was being driven without insurance (looks like this came from the PNC) and the driver must be unable to produce a relevant certificate at the roadside. Some people say the cop must utter some sort of specific wording re the request. In my experience when you ask a driver if they have insurance and they state they do but don't have it with them the courts have accepted this as the driver being unable to produce at the roadside. Although there is a recent stated case about what constitutes a relevant insurance document I am not aware of any such case defining how the request is made. Until we have such a stated case it is anyone's guess if this complies, albeit I am sure the 2 opposing views will appear soon.

I am not surprised the Cop wasn't prepared to accept the word of an unknown person on a phone. I have had numerous people lie to my face let alone on the phone. If it transpires there was valid insurance you can be sure some office dwelling boss will use 20/20 hindsight to say the cop should have believed Mr Anon.

You need to check your works insurance policy very closely. I would be surprised if your company agree to insure you to drive any vehicle for any purpose at any time with no caveats.

There is something very wrong with the description of the paperwork given to your friend. If it was a provisional FPN the driver MUST produce his D/L to surrender or elect court. It is usual to request the insurance docs at the same time, in fact it would be stupid not to if the driver was claiming to be covered. If I was him I would take the insurance docs in and ask the person on the front desk to write the details down. Of course we don't actually know if he has a producer or not.

I suggest you post a sanitised version here so we can actually see and assess.
mrh3369
The insurance policy will almost certainly be for any car driven in the course of their business rather than for spd on any vehicle.
undersun8
I'll find out what exactly he was given at the roadside.

I know he was given a small pink piece of paper and small yellow piece of paper. When he was asked to sign it he asked what exactly it was he was signing and the officer informed him it was him accepting he had no insurance and was prepared to take the 6 points and fine, but the officer also told him he'd have to go to court if he signed it. He refused as he didn't agree he was uninsured.

The sections that were regarding the driving license were both crossed through and where his signature should be was the word Refused.

Beyond that don't know what else was on there or its name. I believe one of the pieces was notice of seizure.

Thanks.
mickR
QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Sun, 1 Apr 2012 - 16:24) *
The insurance policy will almost certainly be for any car driven in the course of their business rather than for spd on any vehicle.



i agree.
andy_foster
QUOTE (undersun8 @ Sun, 1 Apr 2012 - 17:19) *
I'll find out what exactly he was given at the roadside.


Rather than wasting everyone's time playing chinese whispers and giving us incomplete information, why don't you help your friend by asking him to post here himself and give us the full story?
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