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GmasterT
Hi Guys,

Firstly, been looking through, fantastic forum and advise etc, cool.gif good to see at least an attempt to help us in our easy to pick on metal boxes... rolleyes.gif

Anyway, just got a letter through with a summons for the 2nd of april from being pulled over last december and I am a bit confused about one of the charges.

The first is the speeding... A45 near wellingborough, late on a sunday eve, peaked at around 105 (iirc) while a general cruise of over 3 ish miles of around 90ish Id say. Unmarked copper followed, pulled, busted.

Can't remember the exact speed etc (its not in the letter) but I think it was 105.

the next 2 are insurance... I forgot to produce (thats one charge) so need to take my cert to prove I was covered at the time, fair enough.

The one that is confusing me is a 4th charge of driving without due care and attention. Now, this was never mentioned (as far as I remember) at the time and I certainly wasnt driving erratically, just 'progessivley.' Is this something the copper has decided to add or a default charge due to being deemed driving over 100mph?

Its got me in a pickle as I have 7 points (4 for sp30 (no idea why 4) and 3 for low tyre oversight) already and am basically unemployed since xmas with my only income at the moment is some car trading and occasional red letter style track days for a company at tracks around the country.

My other issue is I either go in alone and plead guilty and face a mega ban. Pay a solicitor for 'damage limitation' and plead guilty on all keeping costs down, or pay a very large amount (selling the car to fund so!) on pleading not guilty to undue care and attention and see if it pays off.

I have to wait untill thurs/fri this week before I can call for advance disclosure apparantly as they wont have it yet.

Any help/advise would be awesome smile.gif


NeverMind
QUOTE (GmasterT @ Tue, 13 Mar 2012 - 17:20) *
The one that is confusing me is a 4th charge of driving without due care and attention. Now, this was never mentioned (as far as I remember) at the time and I certainly wasnt driving erratically, just 'progessivley.' Is this something the copper has decided to add or a default charge due to being deemed driving over 100mph?


How quickly did you pull over once he signalled you? Did you take a while to notice him? He might try to call that inattention.
jobo
no its not ussual, unless they have considered the speeding to be careless, in which case they need to drop the speeding as you cant use the same set of facts for two different charges

it would seem a ban is comming your way, either just for the speeding or for toting ie going over 12 you would need to provied hardship arguments to avoid/reduce this

i
sgtdixie
Until you get a copy of the Police statement you won't know the basis of the careless. Once you have it wash off personal details and post here and we can see what we think. As you were NIP'd at the time for speeding no seperate NIP is required for the careless. It is not unheard of for officers to sit back in the cold light of day and assess the evidence before deciding exactly what to prosecute. The decision may have been made by the Cops Sgt having reviewed the file.

Based on your account there is insufficient info to advise in detail. Speed is generally not sufficient for Dangerous but depending on where you did 100+ it may be sufficient for careless. You will however only get points for either speeding or carelsss, not both. There will, if convicted of both, be a higher fine.
GmasterT
QUOTE (NeverMind @ Tue, 13 Mar 2012 - 17:27) *
How quickly did you pull over once he signalled you? Did you take a while to notice him? He might try to call that inattention.


Fairly quickly, I had clocked I was being followed so had steadied out, he waited untill we where near a services to flash me in


QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 13 Mar 2012 - 17:27) *
no its not ussual, unless they have considered the speeding to be careless, in which case they need to drop the speeding as you cant use the same set of facts for two different charges

it would seem a ban is comming your way, either just for the speeding or for toting ie going over 12 you would need to provied hardship arguments to avoid/reduce this

i


How do I do that? Get letters from potential/current employees or draft myself? As technically I am self employed now


QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Tue, 13 Mar 2012 - 17:30) *
Until you get a copy of the Police statement you won't know the basis of the careless. Once you have it wash off personal details and post here and we can see what we think. As you were NIP'd at the time for speeding no seperate NIP is required for the careless. It is not unheard of for officers to sit back in the cold light of day and assess the evidence before deciding exactly what to prosecute. The decision may have been made by the Cops Sgt having reviewed the file.

Based on your account there is insufficient info to advise in detail. Speed is generally not sufficient for Dangerous but depending on where you did 100+ it may be sufficient for careless. You will however only get points for either speeding or carelsss, not both. There will, if convicted of both, be a higher fine.


Will do, is dangerous the same as undue?

Many thanks guys cool.gif
jobo
no careless is a lessor form of dangerous

you need to concentrate the effect a ban would have, especialy to others
sgtdixie
BTW excess speed can be charged as both speeding and careless on the same circumstances. (Think of red lights and dangerous for instance) Common occurence, but if convicted will only be one endorsement.
NeverMind
Oh, and by the way, people are rarely prosecuted for driving with undue care and attention wink.gif


GmasterT
QUOTE (NeverMind @ Wed, 14 Mar 2012 - 10:04) *
Oh, and by the way, people are rarely prosecuted for driving with undue care and attention wink.gif


That's fair enough and I am fairly sure I am not being naive about this, but this is why I am confused by the charge, especially as it was not mentioned at the time. Anyway, I can claim for the advance disclosure either this afternoon or tomorrow so will know more then.
glasgow_bhoy
QUOTE (GmasterT @ Thu, 15 Mar 2012 - 07:28) *
QUOTE (NeverMind @ Wed, 14 Mar 2012 - 10:04) *
Oh, and by the way, people are rarely prosecuted for driving with undue care and attention wink.gif


That's fair enough and I am fairly sure I am not being naive about this, but this is why I am confused by the charge, especially as it was not mentioned at the time. Anyway, I can claim for the advance disclosure either this afternoon or tomorrow so will know more then.

Nevermind is just being pedantic about your wording... the charge people are prodecuted is driving without due care or attention.... and people are regularly prosecuted for this.
GmasterT
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Thu, 15 Mar 2012 - 10:16) *
QUOTE (GmasterT @ Thu, 15 Mar 2012 - 07:28) *
QUOTE (NeverMind @ Wed, 14 Mar 2012 - 10:04) *
Oh, and by the way, people are rarely prosecuted for driving with undue care and attention wink.gif


That's fair enough and I am fairly sure I am not being naive about this, but this is why I am confused by the charge, especially as it was not mentioned at the time. Anyway, I can claim for the advance disclosure either this afternoon or tomorrow so will know more then.

Nevermind is just being pedantic about your wording... the charge people are prodecuted is driving without due care or attention.... and people are regularly prosecuted for this.


Ah, fair enough. See, that's why I need to come here! biggrin.gif
GmasterT
Disclosure stuff here, very interested to hear what you think...

(It came with a copt of the producer and a statement saying that a man in cambs police station couldnt find a record of me producing, but as explained above, I was insured and have found the cert, I just forgot to produce after a failed initial attempt blush.gif )

Anyway:

Click to view attachment

Click to view attachment

this goes onto a second page saying '...breath test which was negative, I processed Tilling and he was allowed on his way' followed by his sig.

I can post up a copy of the summons if required?
jobo
there is no mention of any conduct that amounts to careless driving is it on the next page
are you sure its on the summons
GmasterT
Summons...

Click to view attachment
Logician
The basis for careless must be excessive speed on a damp road with side turnings, nothing else is mentioned. I would gues that if you turn up to court and talk to the CPS prosecutor beforehand, s/he might agree to drop the careless if you plead G to the speeding. Producing the insurance certificate in court is likely to lead to you being sent to a police station to get it verified, so you could forestall that by going yourself beforehand to a station, explaining what has happened and asking them to verify you were insured at the time. (insurance certificates do not mean much now when so many people take out monthly pay policies, get an annual certificate, then have the insurance cancelled for missing payment but do not return the certificate).

If the court follow their guidelines they will se you have 7 points on your licence and give you 6 more to make you a totter, rather than giving you a discretionary ban. However, whether they will do that or not is in the lap of the gods. Arguing for exceptional hardship is more difficult if you are unemployed, and it will just interfere with your casual work. Is there anyone else who would be affected by your loss of licence? Do you use your car to assist anyone else, elderly relatives, children, charities?
GmasterT
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 18 Mar 2012 - 22:56) *
The basis for careless must be excessive speed on a damp road with side turnings, nothing else is mentioned. I would gues that if you turn up to court and talk to the CPS prosecutor beforehand, s/he might agree to drop the careless if you plead G to the speeding. Producing the insurance certificate in court is likely to lead to you being sent to a police station to get it verified, so you could forestall that by going yourself beforehand to a station, explaining what has happened and asking them to verify you were insured at the time. (insurance certificates do not mean much now when so many people take out monthly pay policies, get an annual certificate, then have the insurance cancelled for missing payment but do not return the certificate).

If the court follow their guidelines they will se you have 7 points on your licence and give you 6 more to make you a totter, rather than giving you a discretionary ban. However, whether they will do that or not is in the lap of the gods. Arguing for exceptional hardship is more difficult if you are unemployed, and it will just interfere with your casual work. Is there anyone else who would be affected by your loss of licence? Do you use your car to assist anyone else, elderly relatives, children, charities?


Sadly not, no, just me really. Although I have just started my own business breaking cars so don't know if the self employed thing would help?

What about the accuracy of the judged speed? Seen as his speedo was 2mph out at 60 and he was using his own judgment re spacing on a road where he would have lost sight of me for short moments. He also seems to be making a meal of the 'traffic'. Nearly 10pm on a Sunday where we are both allegedly doing a steady 105 does not imply busy to me!
jobo
to my mind they have to drop either the careless or the speeding, if doing 105 in damp conditions is careless they cant use it again for the speeding

if they drop the speeding, then you have a chance of beating the careless, as its quite a heavy burden of proff on them

you have no chance of beating the speeding, you could request a newton hearing to argue the speed down, but you need to argue it to 99 if your going to make any differance to the sentance, a newton plea is a guilty of speeding but at a lower speed than alledged
sgtdixie
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 20 Mar 2012 - 15:10) *
to my mind they have to drop either the careless or the speeding, if doing 105 in damp conditions is careless they cant use it again for the speeding

if they drop the speeding, then you have a chance of beating the careless, as its quite a heavy burden of proff on them

you have no chance of beating the speeding, you could request a newton hearing to argue the speed down, but you need to argue it to 99 if your going to make any differance to the sentance, a newton plea is a guilty of speeding but at a lower speed than alledged

The same circumstances can be both excess speed and careless. I don't see the statement proving careless so would suggest a NG to that and a guilty to speeding. You then have the option of a newton hearing to argue the speed down or exceptional hardship plea if they are thinking of banning you.
GmasterT
Thanks guys. I think I'm still going to need representation as I doubt I'll be very confident in the court. I suppose I won't have to pay extra for the not guilty if I can get them to drop it beforehand.
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