Full Version: loading bay ticket
I stopped in a loading bay to ask for directions as I was lost, I asked a lady who was standing outside a shop for directions which she gave me this only took 2 mins, when I got home I received a parking ticket through the post, I sent the council a e-mail explaining the situation, they replied by e-mail saying I had to pay the fine, on the original letter I got from the council it said if my representations were rejected they would send me an appeal form explaining how and when to appeal, they have failed to send a letter and the last day to pay the fine is tommorow, I want to appeal but I dont know where I stand. cheers.
post up ALL the docs - ASAP
take out personal details but leave dates and times in
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16
take out personal details but leave dates and times in
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16
Sorry not able to scan documents.
Can you not take pictures and load them. There is a sticky how to do this ?
This is in the private tickets forum at the moment, hence lack of replies. Although we need the pictures of the documents to help further.
strugglin to post photos will keep tryin.
This needs moving to the council tickets forum
How do I move it.
Got it at last.
Issued 1 Feb. 2nd working day after is 3rd Feb which is the date of service.
3rd Feb + 27 days is 1st March. That's the last day on which the council must receive an informal challenge in order to appeal it. They can disregard challenges made after that and before the NtO is served. At NtO you can make one formal appeal.
Leaving it so late and posting in the wrong forum means you may struggle to formulate a challenge in time, although there is no harm in making one a little late.
You are in for the full amount so may as well challenge if there are worthwhile grounds for doing so.
The discount period is 21 days. I'm not sure that is compliant with the regulations that say 14 days, perhaps it is different for a postal PCN.
No observation period is shown on the PCN. What does the video show?
If the whole event really did take under 2 minutes then perhaps it is de minimis.
3rd Feb + 27 days is 1st March. That's the last day on which the council must receive an informal challenge in order to appeal it. They can disregard challenges made after that and before the NtO is served. At NtO you can make one formal appeal.
Leaving it so late and posting in the wrong forum means you may struggle to formulate a challenge in time, although there is no harm in making one a little late.
You are in for the full amount so may as well challenge if there are worthwhile grounds for doing so.
The discount period is 21 days. I'm not sure that is compliant with the regulations that say 14 days, perhaps it is different for a postal PCN.
No observation period is shown on the PCN. What does the video show?
If the whole event really did take under 2 minutes then perhaps it is de minimis.
QUOTE (marvin28 @ Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 00:10) 
Issued 1 Feb. 2nd working day after is 3rd Feb which is the date of service.
3rd Feb + 27 days is 1st March. That's the last day on which the council must receive an informal challenge in order to appeal it. They can disregard challenges made after that and before the NtO is served. At NtO you can make one formal appeal.
3rd Feb + 27 days is 1st March. That's the last day on which the council must receive an informal challenge in order to appeal it. They can disregard challenges made after that and before the NtO is served. At NtO you can make one formal appeal.
Wake up Marvin!!!
There is no informal challenge. It's a postal PCN so no NtO to follow.
He states he has made formal reps by e-mail and has a response by e-mail. We need to see those.
If he has a response - a formal Notice of Rejection then his deadline is some other time in the future >>> ??
We cant tell until we see this rejection (or the text of -- as he says the response was by e-mail which is very unusual).
--
Rab - you have been moved to the correct forum.
Something's not right with your account.
An enforcement authority MUST respond to representations in writing. You state you received an email stating that you must pay the fine.
1. It's not a fine!
2. An email is not a written response;
3. As it's not in writing, it cannot be a rejection of your reps, which leads me to conclude that,
4. You didn't make representations.
Only you can unravel this conundrum by posting docs.
HCA
An enforcement authority MUST respond to representations in writing. You state you received an email stating that you must pay the fine.
1. It's not a fine!
2. An email is not a written response;
3. As it's not in writing, it cannot be a rejection of your reps, which leads me to conclude that,
4. You didn't make representations.
Only you can unravel this conundrum by posting docs.
HCA
This what the e-mail said,
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above mentioned penalty charge notice. After careful consideration of the circumstances expressed in your letter I am unable to waive the charge.
The notice was issued correctly, the vehicle was parked in a loading bay. Loading bays are provided to allow loading and unloading without causing traffic congestion or obstruction and may not be used for any other purpose. The civil enforcement officer states that he/she observed the vehicle to ascertain if loading/ unloading was taking place, no activity was observed, therefore the notice was issued.
You can still take advantage of the discounted charge of 35 pounds, provided payment is made 14 days of receiving this correspondence. If no payment is made the full charge of 70 pounds is applicble.
Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above mentioned penalty charge notice. After careful consideration of the circumstances expressed in your letter I am unable to waive the charge.
The notice was issued correctly, the vehicle was parked in a loading bay. Loading bays are provided to allow loading and unloading without causing traffic congestion or obstruction and may not be used for any other purpose. The civil enforcement officer states that he/she observed the vehicle to ascertain if loading/ unloading was taking place, no activity was observed, therefore the notice was issued.
You can still take advantage of the discounted charge of 35 pounds, provided payment is made 14 days of receiving this correspondence. If no payment is made the full charge of 70 pounds is applicble.
I say again, this is not a notice of rejection of your reps. Therefore, you did not make reps.
We don't know what you submitted as you haven't posted it.
On the face of it, you're home and dry - so why is there is nagging doubt in my mind?
HCA
We don't know what you submitted as you haven't posted it.
On the face of it, you're home and dry - so why is there is nagging doubt in my mind?
HCA
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 29 Feb 2012 - 20:33)
so why is there is nagging doubt in my mind?
- because we can't get even crucial detail like the date of that e-mail???? -- and are still wondering why he thinks today is a deadline?? -- or is it??
They appear to have treated anything he sent as an informal challenge against a Reg 9 perhaps??
This the way I sent the draft.
Representation- I was travelling to Bolton for a weekend break, travelling from Scotland I had never been to Bolton before, I got lost in the town centre so I stopped in the loading bay to ask for directions,I was out of the car for about 2 minutes, I didnt cause obstruction to any other vehicles, I didnt think it was an offence to stop and ask for directions in a loading bay.
Representation- I was travelling to Bolton for a weekend break, travelling from Scotland I had never been to Bolton before, I got lost in the town centre so I stopped in the loading bay to ask for directions,I was out of the car for about 2 minutes, I didnt cause obstruction to any other vehicles, I didnt think it was an offence to stop and ask for directions in a loading bay.
I give up. 
Ok, one more try.
If you are right about this then the Council have committed a serious procedural impropriety and you could win on that alone.
However, the way we work here is to make sure we have all the facts, accurately, before we can draw conclusions. You have so far omitted crucial detail and failed to respond to questions.
Give us what we need to try to help you >>
Answer ALL of these questions/fill in blanks.
Missing info from PCN >> Location (and a streetview link will help members check the signage for you), observation times, date of contravention.
"I e-mailed the Council to make reps, to the address given on the NtO" yes/no?? on --/--/--.
"My e-mail was headed "Representations" - as I have copied here." yes/no??
"The Council responded by e-mail on --/--/--"
"The full text of their response was >>>"
------
Was their reply headed "Formal Notice of Rejection of representations" ??
What did they actually say about the next stage -- appeal to the Adjudicator??
What did they say about an extended 14 days (as you mentioned) -- (and clearly your deadline cannot have been when you thought, because of that).
What have they said about when to pay if you don't take advantage of the extanded discount?
For the four last questions, just printing the FULL text of their response will answer them anyway.
----
Let''s see if we can get anywhere now.
QUOTE (rabdeniro @ Mon, 27 Feb 2012 - 19:45)
on the original letter I got from the council it said if my representations were rejected they would send me an appeal form explaining how and when to appeal, they have failed to send a letter
If you are right about this then the Council have committed a serious procedural impropriety and you could win on that alone.
However, the way we work here is to make sure we have all the facts, accurately, before we can draw conclusions. You have so far omitted crucial detail and failed to respond to questions.
Give us what we need to try to help you >>
Answer ALL of these questions/fill in blanks.
Missing info from PCN >> Location (and a streetview link will help members check the signage for you), observation times, date of contravention.
"I e-mailed the Council to make reps, to the address given on the NtO" yes/no?? on --/--/--.
"My e-mail was headed "Representations" - as I have copied here." yes/no??
"The Council responded by e-mail on --/--/--"
"The full text of their response was >>>"
------
Was their reply headed "Formal Notice of Rejection of representations" ??
What did they actually say about the next stage -- appeal to the Adjudicator??
What did they say about an extended 14 days (as you mentioned) -- (and clearly your deadline cannot have been when you thought, because of that).
What have they said about when to pay if you don't take advantage of the extanded discount?
For the four last questions, just printing the FULL text of their response will answer them anyway.
----
Let''s see if we can get anywhere now.
Location--Knowsley Street Bolton
Observation Times--On the PCN [observed from to ] was blank.
Date of contravention.--27/01/2012
I emailed the council on the address on the PCN Date 09/02/2012
My email was headed representions--Yes
The council responded by email on 17/02/2012
The full text of response was-- see post 14
Observation Times--On the PCN [observed from to ] was blank.
Date of contravention.--27/01/2012
I emailed the council on the address on the PCN Date 09/02/2012
My email was headed representions--Yes
The council responded by email on 17/02/2012
The full text of response was-- see post 14
Ok good stuff.
So they said nothing at all about appeal to the Adjudicator?? !!! Very, very bad. I suspect they don't actually know the procedure for a postal PCN. It looks like I suspect; they've treated your e-mail as if it were an informal challenge to a PCN served on your car.
For postal PCNs there is no informal challenge stage.
---
Effectively you do have a Notice of Rejection. It isn't your fault they haven't headed it correctly and having it is crucial -- because that is the one requirement to be able to proceed to the Adjudicator.
You don't have forms - again, not your fault.
I think what you are going to have to do is to make an appeal to the Adjudicator, state clearly at the top that you hold a Notice of Rejection. Then just use a letter format as long as it includes all the detail the standard form requires (we'll find a sample on here somewhere).
Based on what they've done - you should win easily.
BUT -- don't go rushing to do this before more members have discussed it and offered opinions here.
---
My personal view is that you should write to TPT, as an appeal, as above -- and --- just register the appeal saying 'details to follow'. (that gives us time to offer opinions on how best to present the detail).
Just doing that will set the cat amongst the pigeons - because this is unusual - TPT will advise the Council you've appealed and Bolton will be clueless what is going on or where they've cocked up -- OR -- they might realise it and cancel quickly.
One thing I would NOT do -- is to phone or contact TPT asking 'permission to appeal' due to unusual circumstances. I've seen that before and where the Adjudication service knows something has gone wrong with procedure - I can imagine them referring you back to the Council -- which is NOT what you need.
----
Dont worry if you don't understand half of what I'm going on about. I'm mainly offering a tactical opinion in the hope that other members will comment with their ideas as well. -- It's an unusual case.
QUOTE (rabdeniro @ Thu, 1 Mar 2012 - 23:21)
The full text of response was-- see post 14
So they said nothing at all about appeal to the Adjudicator?? !!! Very, very bad. I suspect they don't actually know the procedure for a postal PCN. It looks like I suspect; they've treated your e-mail as if it were an informal challenge to a PCN served on your car.
For postal PCNs there is no informal challenge stage.
---
Effectively you do have a Notice of Rejection. It isn't your fault they haven't headed it correctly and having it is crucial -- because that is the one requirement to be able to proceed to the Adjudicator.
You don't have forms - again, not your fault.
I think what you are going to have to do is to make an appeal to the Adjudicator, state clearly at the top that you hold a Notice of Rejection. Then just use a letter format as long as it includes all the detail the standard form requires (we'll find a sample on here somewhere).
Based on what they've done - you should win easily.
BUT -- don't go rushing to do this before more members have discussed it and offered opinions here.
---
My personal view is that you should write to TPT, as an appeal, as above -- and --- just register the appeal saying 'details to follow'. (that gives us time to offer opinions on how best to present the detail).
Just doing that will set the cat amongst the pigeons - because this is unusual - TPT will advise the Council you've appealed and Bolton will be clueless what is going on or where they've cocked up -- OR -- they might realise it and cancel quickly.
One thing I would NOT do -- is to phone or contact TPT asking 'permission to appeal' due to unusual circumstances. I've seen that before and where the Adjudication service knows something has gone wrong with procedure - I can imagine them referring you back to the Council -- which is NOT what you need.
----
Dont worry if you don't understand half of what I'm going on about. I'm mainly offering a tactical opinion in the hope that other members will comment with their ideas as well. -- It's an unusual case.
QUOTE
You don't have forms - again, not your fault.
I think what you are going to have to do is to make an appeal to the Adjudicator, state clearly at the
top that you hold a Notice of Rejection. Then just use a letter format as long as it includes all the
detail the standard form requires (we'll find a sample on here somewhere).
I think what you are going to have to do is to make an appeal to the Adjudicator, state clearly at the
top that you hold a Notice of Rejection. Then just use a letter format as long as it includes all the
detail the standard form requires (we'll find a sample on here somewhere).
There is an option to Appeal Online, this extract suggests the TPT will require a form sent
by the council.
The ability to lodge the Notice of Appeal online is currently the subject of a trial scheme being
conducted in conjunction with a limited number of councils.
You can use this scheme ONLY IF you have received a PIN code with your Notice of Rejection
from the Council. If not, you must make your appeal using the paper form sent to you by the
Council.
http://www.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/s...;documentID=136
Here is a copy of a form.
The OP must write to TPT setting out exactly the sequence of events.
As per NeilB, do not phone, you need to do EVERYTHING in writing (not email) from now on.
Maybe something like:
To TPT
I was served with PCN no. ********* dated ****** by Bolton Borough Council. I made representations by email - see enclosed - in response to which I received the enclosed response by email.
This purports to be a Notice of Rejection of Representations, however it did not enclose the appropriate appeals registration form - hence this letter to you to register my appeal.
At this stage my grounds of appeal are procedural impropriety, but I reserve the right to add to these once in receipt of your reply as to the form in which these should be made and the process from now onwards.
Yours lovingly
******
HCA
As per NeilB, do not phone, you need to do EVERYTHING in writing (not email) from now on.
Maybe something like:
To TPT
I was served with PCN no. ********* dated ****** by Bolton Borough Council. I made representations by email - see enclosed - in response to which I received the enclosed response by email.
This purports to be a Notice of Rejection of Representations, however it did not enclose the appropriate appeals registration form - hence this letter to you to register my appeal.
At this stage my grounds of appeal are procedural impropriety, but I reserve the right to add to these once in receipt of your reply as to the form in which these should be made and the process from now onwards.
Yours lovingly
******
HCA
Yep, I'll go with that.
That's see what happens.
As far as I can make out, this is their address -
Traffic Penalty Tribunal
Barlow House
Minshull Street
Manchester
M1 3DZ
I assume that's the same as the one that appears on the form, if you had one.
That's see what happens.
As far as I can make out, this is their address -
Traffic Penalty Tribunal
Barlow House
Minshull Street
Manchester
M1 3DZ
I assume that's the same as the one that appears on the form, if you had one.
Thanks for the help everybody I will give it a try. Cheers.
[
I sent a letter to TPT and recieved this reply on the 8th of march,
Thank you for your completed Notice of Appeal form. Your case has been registered and the
Council have been notified.
If the Council choose to contest the case, they will send written representations and supporting
evidence to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, with a copy to you, to arrive no later than 29 March
2012.
In addition to the items already sent, if there is any other information you wish the Adjudicator
to consider please ensure it is received here by 5 April 2012.
Your case will be decided shortly after 12 April 2012, and you will be sent a copy of the
Adjudicator’s decision. The Adjudicator is an independent solicitor or barrister appointed to
decide cases referred to this Tribunal.
I am the Appeals Coordinator who will be dealing with your case. If you have any questions
please do not hesitate to contact me on the above telephone number
I then recieved a letter on the 14th of march from Bolton Council containing a notice of rejection of representation and a form to appeal to the adjudicator, should I send the appeal form or wait till I hear from the adjudicator.
Thank you for your completed Notice of Appeal form. Your case has been registered and the
Council have been notified.
If the Council choose to contest the case, they will send written representations and supporting
evidence to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal, with a copy to you, to arrive no later than 29 March
2012.
In addition to the items already sent, if there is any other information you wish the Adjudicator
to consider please ensure it is received here by 5 April 2012.
Your case will be decided shortly after 12 April 2012, and you will be sent a copy of the
Adjudicator’s decision. The Adjudicator is an independent solicitor or barrister appointed to
decide cases referred to this Tribunal.
I am the Appeals Coordinator who will be dealing with your case. If you have any questions
please do not hesitate to contact me on the above telephone number
I then recieved a letter on the 14th of march from Bolton Council containing a notice of rejection of representation and a form to appeal to the adjudicator, should I send the appeal form or wait till I hear from the adjudicator.
QUOTE (rabdeniro @ Wed, 21 Mar 2012 - 20:30)
I sent a letter to TPT and recieved this reply on the 8th of march,
Thank you for your completed Notice of Appeal form. Your case has been registered and the
Council have been notified.
I then recieved a letter on the 14th of march from Bolton Council containing a notice of rejection of representation and a form to appeal to the adjudicator, should I send the appeal form or wait till I hear from the adjudicator.
Thank you for your completed Notice of Appeal form. Your case has been registered and the
Council have been notified.
I then recieved a letter on the 14th of march from Bolton Council containing a notice of rejection of representation and a form to appeal to the adjudicator, should I send the appeal form or wait till I hear from the adjudicator.
As soon as they are notified, they realise they have fecked up bigtime and rush out what they should have done in the first place!!! Hilarious.
What date is that latest ? I'd like to see it too please.
They should get torn to shreds by Adjudicator for this.
Why have you elected for postal hearing??
QUOTE (rabdeniro @ Wed, 21 Mar 2012 - 20:30)
should I send the appeal form or wait till I hear from the adjudicator.
You don't need to send the form. the TPT letter, according to you (we haven't seen it) says your case is already registered.
Technically, you had already won by them not offering the avenue of appeal to the Adjudicator in their first reply.
Now, you should have it slam dunk as they have clearly, IMO, responded to notification of your appeal from TPT to them and tried to correct their error after the event - offering you what they should have done in the first place.
You enter their latest letter as evidence to support your case and clearly label it as received AFTER you had to apply to TPT off your own back - it's a huge procedural impropriety IMO.
--
You really must get used to showing us correspondence >
Exactly what you sent to TPT, their reply and the new NoR.
The letter I sent was basically the same as hcanderson wrote in post 23.
Rest of the Bolton rejection? or is that it?
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