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dog_seamons
Got caught doing 51 in a 30 (non residential area...policeman that pulled me over even said that he could understand if I didn't think it should be a 30). I was lucky enough to recieve a FPN for 3 points and £60, I thought that would be the end of that...

...However, due to my girlfriend having been recently diagnosed with depression, and various other things happening that have occupied my mind, I failed to comprehend the fact I had to hand my license in within 7 days. I was stopped on the 19th Jan, and due to not being paid until 28th Jan (and as a result, not really being able to afford the £60), I didn't hand my license in until the 1st Feb (I mistakenly presumed I had 28 days to pay the fine, AND hand over my license).

I then went to work at a police station (I am an electrician), and handed my license and FPN in at the desk (I knew I was working there the day before, so got the documents ready). The woman who took my license, and filled in a form, said that she would have to report me for failing to produce. However, unlike what I have read on a few other cases, I was not asked to fill in anything explaining why I had failed to produce?
She then went on to say that 9 times out of 10, failing to produce would go un-noticed as long as I paid the fine in time. However, I believe that because I was doing 51 in a 30, I am beyond the usual limits for the FPN, so this will get overturned when I recieve the summons?

What I really what to know is, will the failing to produce (although I have actually produced the documents, just not within 7 days) charge have any implications on the speeding charge? From what I can understand, 51 is at the lower end of the scale considered for a ban.

I am 25, and I already have 3 points from speeding from 2010. Again, will this make a difference? I presume they will be less lenient on me than if I had a clean license, but will the two things accumulate to make the overall speeding charge even worse?

A ban would be incredibly inconvenient, because I am the only bill payer in the house (my girlfriend doesn't earn anywhere near as much as me, and has a horse to pay for), so would struggle to provide if I lost out on work for any length of time. Not only is getting to work an issue with no DL (I live 35 miles away, with no real direct public transport available), but I drive a van daily, so obviously wouldn't be able to get to any jobs. I quite often have younger apprentices (not always the same one) with me, so this would affect them too, and they wouldn't be able to drive the van, because the company insurance policy doesn't cover anybody under 21.

Is there any chance I will get away with the FPN going through and just getting the 3 points? Every day I check my online banking, and the £60 has yet to be refunded (although I do appreciate it can take a lot more time than the 3 weeks yet!). When/if(?) I get my license back from the DVLA through the post, and it has the 3 points added to it, will that be the end of it, or will I still have to dread each day I come home from work and look for the infamous envolope?!

Sorry my first post has been a bit of a ramble, but I have so many questions! I did look for the forum for quite some time before, but couldn't really find any similar cases. So many thanks in advance, I look forward to any advice that is offered.



jobo
did you surrender your driving licience to them when you did attend ?
dog_seamons
Yes, I surrendered my license on 1st Feb, as well as paying the £60 on 1st Feb.
jobo
the failing to produce, shouldn't really have any effect, its up to them really, if they just process it youl get your DL back with points, end of, if not its court, where as you're guessed a ban is possible, though the horse should make for a good hardship case ?

i be suprised if they follow through on the failure to produce, its not worth the court time
dog_seamons
So will I recieve my license back regardless? Just with or without the points added?

I take it you don't get a choice of points OR a ban? If the ban was between 7-14 days, I could probably manage with just using my holiday from work, but it would be a pretty rubbish holiday not being able to drive anywhere! I'm hoping the realisation that I'm 1 offence away from losing my license would be enough for them to consider giving the points instead...
Logician
You seem to be getting a little confused. One of two things could happen:

1) They process the fixed penalty as normal despite your lateness. In that case you will get your licence back with 3 points on it.

2) They do not process the fixed penalty because of your lateness. You would then get your licence returned with no points on it, eventually you will be refunded your £60 and you will receive a requistion to court. If that happens you had better post again, but bascially you can plead G by post, putting in what mitigation you can (non-residential area etc) and mentioning that you were offerred a fixed penalty which you intended to take up but failed to do so in time, or you can go to court and plead G, saying the same things, or NG, but it seems you have no basis for that. If you plead G by post and they are considering banning you, they will ask you to come to court in person beforehand, so that would probably be your best option. You can ask for either points or a ban but it is not your choice, the court will decide. They might decide that 6 points will keep you caredful for longer, or they might decide the shock of a short ban would be better, no one can say.
dog_seamons
Thankyou, that has cleared a few things up!

I wasn't sure if I could be given my license back with the points on, then at some point in the future recieve a summons for the remainder of the penalty.
So seemingly, if I get my license back and it has the new endorsement on it, I have "got away with it"?
When I get my license back (presuming no added points), will the summons be with it, or is that a seperate letter? I believe it normally takes 4-6 weeks for the license to return, is that correct?

Sorry for all the questions, this is my first time facing a court prosecution, and to say Im bricking it, is an understatement!

I guess its now just a case of sitting tight and hoping luck (and the police!) is on my side while I wait for the letter containing my license to arrive!
jobo
if a summons comes it will be separate and could be some months away anything up to 8 months after the offence

yes if they accept your out of time acceptance of the fpn, they are stuck with it and cant st least shouldnt then go and start changing their mind

your only just in to ban territory, so i wouldnt be too pessimistic of your chances of avoiding one, or it being very short if it happens

i note you say there is some anbiguity over what the limit is, do you want to explore this, just in case it bounces back to you, they may have fixed signs etc by the time you need to know
Logician
No, either you get a fixed penalty or you do not, there can be no "topping up"

The summons if any will come separate from your licence, and it might be months rather than weeks.
dog_seamons
Ok, so the license is a sign of my summons coming or not, I can cope with that.

With regards to the ambiguity of the 30 limit, the road starts from an A road from a staggered crossroads, (which is a 40 due to the junction layout and speed of the road), where I got caught is about 1/2-3/4 mile from the junction, and about 150-200m from the nation speed limit sign. There are maybe 3 or 4 houses on about a 100m stretch of the road where I was caught. No streetlights, but there are several 30mph signs. I think the limit was only enforced in the last couple of years, but NOBODY does the limit through there, hence it being a very popular place for the traffic police to hide out.

Not sure if its worth mentioning, but it was around 6pm (maybe a touch before), and was pretty dark, the first I saw of the officer was the red wand as he stood in the road and waived me down.
His car was hidden behind a mound of grass, but to be fair, thats the only place he could have parked.

I'm not particuarly sure I want to "fight" the charge, I was caught fair and square, and don't want to annoy the prosecuters by trying to wriggle out of it! Id rather just plead guilty ASAP and get it over and done with, with as little fuss/cost as possible!
jobo
was there a pair of 30 signs as you entered ? you may be right, but its sounds like there could be issues, the absence of street lights means there needs to be a specific order authorizing the limit, which there may or may not be

if not it would probably default to a 60, there is no rush if the signs are correct, as you can track it down if or when a summons appears
dog_seamons
Ill have a look on my way home. Im fairly certain there is only one 30 sign post on the side of the road, but staggered along the road, so they are on both sides, just not together, or facing the same way. Not like the ones when you enter a village for example. Im also pretty sure they are only the half height kinda ones, but will confirm later.
jobo
get a picy if you can
dog_seamons
Right, so I went back to "the scene" last night. When the road starts off the main road from the junction, there is no double 30mph sign, just one on the left hand side, almost immediately after the junction (infact so soon after, I almost had to crane my neck to look!). There are then subsequent 30mph sign approx. every 250m along the stretch of road. The only double sign is where it displays the national speed limit sign at the end of the 30mph zone (approx. 250m after where I was caught). There is a possibility there is a double 30mph sign on the reverse of the national speed limit sign, but it was dark and I couldn't quite see.

I will try and get pictures, but it won't be until the weekend, because its always dark when I pass!

What are the implications of this signage? Does it even make any difference?!
jobo
it has no effect if they accept you fpn, your committed now, if they dont a defect in the signage would either give you na defence or count as very strong mitigation to keep the points down, dependent on how defective it was
captain swoop
Are you sure you aren't already in the 30 zone and what you are seeing are just repeaters?

A link to the location would be good.
dog_seamons
The main road I came off is a NSL, apart from the approx 400m stretch of 40mph zone which covers the junction.

If the 30mph zone carries on from the opposite side of the crossroads, I presume it still needs a double sign to indicate the zone on "my" side of the junction? (bearing in mind I don't go on the opposite side).

There is 100% only repeaters along the bit I travel along (unless you were to reverse the route, then the zone may start where the NSL starts going in the direction I went in, but as I said, I couldn't see the sign behind me in the dark)

I will try to get a google map/view when I get home. I'm on my phone currently, so it's a bit of a faff!
sgtdixie
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 22 Feb 2012 - 13:19) *
No, either you get a fixed penalty or you do not, there can be no "topping up"

The summons if any will come separate from your licence, and it might be months rather than weeks.


To be pedantic, the OP can be dealt with by the FPN procedure for the original speeding offence and also be summoned for FTP. If he was required to produce his license he must do so or within 7 days or he commits the offence.

I would say that a public interest argument would almost certainly succeed and Police are normally content to settle the primary offence.
Logician
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Thu, 23 Feb 2012 - 15:22) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 22 Feb 2012 - 13:19) *
No, either you get a fixed penalty or you do not, there can be no "topping up"

The summons if any will come separate from your licence, and it might be months rather than weeks.


To be pedantic, the OP can be dealt with by the FPN procedure for the original speeding offence and also be summoned for FTP. If he was required to produce his license he must do so or within 7 days or he commits the offence.

I would say that a public interest argument would almost certainly succeed and Police are normally content to settle the primary offence.



Yes, I agree that could happen in theory (but probably would not, as you say) but what I took the OP to be asking was something else, whether he could receive 3 points/£60 through the FPN procedure but then a further fine and points from the court because he was late paying the FPN. We tend to forget that not everyone appreciates quite how separate the fixed penalty system and the court system actually are.
dog_seamons
QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 23 Feb 2012 - 15:41) *
Yes, I agree that could happen in theory (but probably would not, as you say) but what I took the OP to be asking was something else, whether he could receive 3 points/£60 through the FPN procedure but then a further fine and points from the court because he was late paying the FPN. We tend to forget that not everyone appreciates quite how separate the fixed penalty system and the court system actually are.

Yes, that is what I was asking. Sorry for being such a Layman! tongue.gif
dog_seamons
Been having a play with Google Earth, and it seems all the images are fairly up to date with regards to signage, so will use the links (hopefully they work!)

This is the view as you turn onto the road I was caught on (B111), from the main road (A140), as you can see, only one 30mph sign on the left hand side, although presumably, the fact there is a pub on the right hand side could have something to do with the lack of sign?
View from main road to side road

Travelling along that road, this is where I was caught. The police car was parked on the road which is behind the grass triangle, infront of the stone house with the red roof (in this view), behind the grass mound (pretty much bang in the middle of that face of the triangle:
Policeman's location


This is where the NSL starts:
Speed limit sign

However, looking on the next photo, it would appear that on the reverse of the NSL signs, that there are 30mph signs on BOTH sides of the road. What does this mean? Surely there should be more than just a repeater from when you turn into the junction (as in the first link), because if not, you are coming from a 40mph zone, into a 30mph zone, but not actually being told its a 30mph zone, just with repeaters? (Assuming you come the way I did, not crossing directly over the crossroads)
Is there any significance to this?:
30mph signs
jobo
ive just winged along that road and didnt see any repeaters, im saying there not there just that i cant see them or maybe they wernt when google drove down, but any way it looks like the single sign is a historic feature


the requirement for two signs isnt quite an absolute, there are locations where then can get gov approval to vary, but id be very surprised if they had such and a court might be unwilling to accept it if you had driven past a dozen repeaters, though to my reading they should do so.

we had a single 30 sign in i think soulthport recently which lead to a not guilty, so its there for you if you need it, more conclusive would be if the trafic order setting the 30 limit was wrong
dog_seamons
There are about 4 or 5 repeaters along the road, on staggered sides of the road. Seems I can't really use that one then! Never mind, it was a fairly interesting aside anyway I guess. Thanks for looking over it though.
Logician
There need only be a single sign since you are going from a 40 limit into a 30 limit.

Quoting the ABD guide:

(2) This paragraph applies where the relevant road has a junction ("the junction") with the side of another road ("the other road") and a maximum speed limit is in force on the other road which is different from the speed limit in force on the relevant road.
(3) Where paragraph (2) applies, it is sufficient compliance with direction 8(2), for the purpose of indicating the beginning of the speed limit on the relevant road to traffic entering it from the other road, if the sign shown in diagram 670, 674 or 675 is placed not further than 20 metres from the junction, on the left hand or near side of the carriageway of the relevant road as viewed in the direction of travel of such traffic or, where the relevant road is a dual carriageway road, on the left hand or near side of the carriageway by which traffic may pass into the relevant road from the other road.


Paragraphs (2) and (3) apply where one road has a junction with another and the two roads have different speed limits. Where traffic is turning from a major road with, for example, a 40mph speed limit, into a side turning with, say, a 30mph limit, there only needs to be a single sign at the entrance to the side road to show the start of the 30mph limit. This sign must, however, be on the left-hand side of the road as seen by drivers entering the side road, and it must be no more than 20 metres from the junction with the major road that the driver has left.
captain swoop
Well looking at the Google Linkit seems to comply with the above.
jobo
QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 23 Feb 2012 - 21:47) *
There need only be a single sign since you are going from a 40 limit into a 30 limit.

Quoting the ABD guide:

(2) This paragraph applies where the relevant road has a junction ("the junction") with the side of another road ("the other road") and a maximum speed limit is in force on the other road which is different from the speed limit in force on the relevant road.
(3) Where paragraph (2) applies, it is sufficient compliance with direction 8(2), for the purpose of indicating the beginning of the speed limit on the relevant road to traffic entering it from the other road, if the sign shown in diagram 670, 674 or 675 is placed not further than 20 metres from the junction, on the left hand or near side of the carriageway of the relevant road as viewed in the direction of travel of such traffic or, where the relevant road is a dual carriageway road, on the left hand or near side of the carriageway by which traffic may pass into the relevant road from the other road.


Paragraphs (2) and (3) apply where one road has a junction with another and the two roads have different speed limits. Where traffic is turning from a major road with, for example, a 40mph speed limit, into a side turning with, say, a 30mph limit, there only needs to be a single sign at the entrance to the side road to show the start of the 30mph limit. This sign must, however, be on the left-hand side of the road as seen by drivers entering the side road, and it must be no more than 20 metres from the junction with the major road that the driver has left.


i used to know that ? must be old age
Logician
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 24 Feb 2012 - 03:14) *
i used to know that ? must be old age


Dreadful isn't it? I thought I had bought a sandwich and a bottle of juice at lunchtime, but when I looked in the bag I found I had bought two bottles of juice and no sandwich!
dog_seamons
Its now been a month and 6 days since I handed my license in to the police station, and I still haven't recieved anything back. What sort of timescale am I looking at? From looking online, it looks like its normally only a week or so before it comes back.
I presumed it went off to DVLA, and that's why it was taking so long. However, I then remembered that last time the points were just written on the counterpart by hand.

...help?!!
dog_seamons
Haha, how odd! Just had a text from my girlfriend saying my license has come (she thinks).

So I rang her and asked her to open it, low and behold, my counterpart has been endorsed with 3 points! Never been so relieved at getting points!

Id been putting money away for a fine, expecting around £500, so I told her I would treat her to dinner!
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