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all_mark
Hi, hope I can get some help with this one.

Parked on a single yellow on Sunday (around 2pm) . Ravensbourne rd, Bromley.

I received ticket for parking in a proscribed restricted zone.

I had no idea and there is no signage refering to this on Ravensbourne rd.

I will post some photos of area and ticket.

Can I appeal this? it seems so unfair as I am normally very careful when parking.

Thanks for any help!
SchoolRunMum
Yellow line means either look for a sign at the line or you should have looked for a sign when entering the zone (if it's a restricted zone). Never just park at a yellow line and think 'oh good there is no sign' - more often than not there will have been a sign earlier on (not necessarily in that actual street though).

Post up the PCN and can you show pics of the place and the signs at the entrance to the zone. If not pics then a GoogleStreetView link to the entrances to that zone showing the signs. There should be a double sign at each and every possible entrance into that zone, unless a road is very narrow and one sign suffices. If you are local then go on a 'drive about' and look for any entrance where the signs are missing or obscured; take photos and that will be an appeal point.

Take pics of signs anyway as the wording may be wrong, as we have seen in a couple of restricted zone cases recently (and I think one of them was in Bromley).

Also show both sides of the PCN, just cover the PCN number and car reg.
all_mark
thanks.. I will post all these photos up....will have a quick drive around Bromley tomorrow.

(I have just been reading about CPZ's ... how the hell do they expect people to know they are in a CPZ if they miss the sign whilst driving? (very easy to do if there are lots of other street signs/buses pulling in/ pedestrians running across the road etc etc...). Seems very unjust )
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (all_mark @ Sun, 12 Feb 2012 - 19:14) *
thanks.. I will post all these photos up....will have a quick drive around Bromley tomorrow.

(I have just been reading about CPZ's ... how the hell do they expect people to know they are in a CPZ if they miss the sign whilst driving? (very easy to do if there are lots of other street signs/buses pulling in/ pedestrians running across the road etc etc...). Seems very unjust )



Totally agree - but the legality of large CPZs have been challenged before and the appellant lost (a lot of money).
all_mark
ok.... I drove around Bromley.

Firstly tried to see if there was a way into the CPZ without a sign...no luck there!

but as can be seen from the photos below there are some major problems with the signs. The sign that should have been pointing towards the traffic when I drove into Bromley is actually turned by almost 90 degrees which makes it almost impossible to see. This is very busy, fast moving road with a junction on the left.





as this road is more than 5m width it also has another sign on opposite side of road but this one is even worse as it actually faces the brick wall and not oncoming traffic.

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l429/br...k/bromley_5.jpg

This a picture of the yellow line I was parked on

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l429/br...k/bromley_1.jpg

Hopefully this will all be good grounds to appeal?

(also one of the other roads into the CPZ had the sign obscured by an estate agents board... which tends to show the general neglect by Bromley council to their signage!)





all_mark


map of bromley area

red dot = approx position of CPZ signs
green dot = position of my car
black dots = route taken into CPZ
Bogsy
The poor entry signage should swing it for you but in addition to add a little extra I suggest including the text below.

I bring to the council’s attention that the single yellow line is subject to direction 25(1) TSRGD 2002 due to it being a road marking that indicates a restriction different to that indicated by a diagram 663 CPZ entry sign.

The TSRGD does not empower a diagram 663 CPZ entry sign to indicate anything other than the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone. Therefore it is not lawfully possible for diagram 663 to indicate a prohibition of waiting. The 663 entry sign may include a roundel in its design but the roundel has no statutory power of its own and so its mere presence is of no lawful consequence. The truth is that a single yellow line indicates a prohibition of waiting whereas diagram 663 solely indicates the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone. It cannot be claimed that a CPZ is synonymous with a prohibition of waiting since a CPZ need not contain any yellow lines whatsoever as it can consist entirely of parking places.

As a diagram 663 sign can only indicate the entrance to a CPZ it is clear that it does not indicate the same restriction as a single yellow line. As such, statute required the single yellow line to be independently signed in accordance with direction 25(1).

Further to the above it should also be noted that the CPZ sign is not adequate to comply with regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. It is not lawfully possible for a diagram 663 CPZ entry sign to indicate a prohibition of waiting or any prohibition as the law only enables it to convey the entrance to a Controlled Parking Zone. Therefore there was no adequate signage placed that conveyed the “No Waiting” effect of the order. Even if this fact is not considered acceptable it should nonetheless be accepted that the entry signage is too distant from the location where I parked to be reasonably considered as adequate to convey the effect of the order.

If the council disagree with the above then they have an obligation to qualify any rejection otherwise the PCN should be cancelled forthwith.
hcandersen
I'm not certain the Court of Appeal agrees regarding CPZs:

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cgi?d...;method=boolean


HCA
Bogsy
It's a pity the court of appeal never paid attention to the legal definition of "road" as this is a pivotal point when you consider the definition of a CPZ given under regulation 4 TSRGD 2002;

"controlled parking zone" means either -
(a) an area -
(i) in which, except where parking places have been provided, every road has been marked with one or more of the road markings shown in diagrams 1017, 1018.1, 1019 and 1020.1; and
(ii) into which each entrance for vehicular traffic has been indicated by the sign shown in diagram 663 or 663.1;


The RTRA 1984 under s. 142 defines "Road" as being "any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access and includes bridges over which a road passes." This definition requires an understanding of what is considered "highway". This is not defined in any legislation and so adjudicators, such as G.R. Hickinbottom in the case between Burnett v Buckinghamshire (case no HIW0003), have always turned to the definition used in common law, which is "a way over which all members of the public have the right to pass and re-pass without hindrance". Therefore as "road" is "any length of highway" then road is considered to be any land where the public can pass and re-pass without hindrance.

Having established what is "road", it is reasonable to conclude that in essence regulation 4 requires every length of highway, except where parking places occur, to be marked with a yellow line.

Where within a CPZ a council has marked bus stop clearways, pedestrian crossing zig zags and other non exempted markings and the public are able to pass and re-pass over these, then these markings occupy a "length of highway" and by definition the land they occupy is therefore "road" and yet the law is quite clear that "every road" must be marked with yellow line except for where parking places have been provided.

The legislators clearly had in mind that the only exception to the rule was to be those lengths of highway where parking places are provided. If the legislators had in mind other exceptions then it stands to reason that they as professional draftsmen would have made this abundantly clear just as they do in regard to the many other detailed exceptions contained within the statute. It was in my opinion, wholly unreasonable to ignore the fact that the legislators purposely used the phrase “every road” knowing that in law the word “road” means any length of highway.

As I say it is a pity the lawyers did not focus on the "road" aspect as I believe it was a stronger angle than the one they pursued.

However, you are right the decision makes it an uphill struggle but the argument given in my previous post has not been considered in any court. It is wholly different. It goes back to basics, it asks where does the law allow a CPZ sign to convey a prohibition and if it does not lawfully convey a prohibition how can it be adequate to convey the no waiting prohibition given effect by a traffic order.
all_mark
thank you for replies and help.

should my appeal be that ' the contravention did not occur' ?

which is the best way to include the photos with the appeal ? should I send printed copies or send internet links?

thank you again for your help.

btw here is the ticket and some more photos of signs :

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l429/br...k/BROMLEY_8.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l429/br...k/BROMLEY_7.jpg
http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l429/br...ET_BROMLEY1.jpg

http://i330.photobucket.com/albums/l429/br...ET_BROMLEY2.jpg
all_mark
bump
hcandersen
I'm not certain what you're looking for at this stage. At present you have at least the grounds of contravention did not occur based on the incorrectly positioned sign and Bogsy's point.

None of us has a silver bullet which will make the council, who are judges in their own cause at present, roll over. So submit your challenge within the 14-day period as this will extend the discount period by 14 days plus the time it takes them to respond. You have until 25th to make your challenge. In all probability they will reject it, so you're trying to establish their position as much as anything else.

But don't miss the 14-day deadline in search of the "perfect" challenge, IMO it doesn't exist.


HCA
all_mark
SUCCESS!! ticket cancelled.. thanks for all the help.
bama
great. well done.
what wording did you use ?
doubletiger
QUOTE (all_mark @ Sun, 15 Apr 2012 - 00:07) *
SUCCESS!! ticket cancelled.. thanks for all the help.


hi, I got a ticket at same spot and I would like to appeal. Can you please let me know on what reasons you won the appeal? If I can have your copy of your appeal letter that will be even better. Thank you very much for your he.

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