Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Penalty notice bus lane Liverpool Rice lane
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Kalahari
Hi,

I'm after some help please, I just got an unexpected Penalty notice in for bus lane use.

I'll post pics in a sec.

My points, firstly the date of offense is 30/12/11 the date of notice is 31/01/12 as this is outside of 28 days is the Penalty already null and void?

There were three possible reasons I was in the bus lane, I remember the day well it was bucketing down and windy.

1 I was turning into a side street or leaving it.
2 I was turning down the next street or leaving it (I had turned down the first one in error)
3 I moved out of the central lane to allow an emergency vehicle past as it was overtaking an oncoming car.

Its possible when leaving one of the side streets I travelled down the lane a short distance but with the windy wet conditions I was more concerned with not hitting anyone or thing and being that this was during the holiday season with no real traffic on the road I did not even think the bus lane was in force.

I usually avoid these lanes anyway to be on the safe side so am kicking myself for this.

Can I argue that I cannot defend myself as I am unsure of the exact location of the offese, there must be 10 cameras in this one stretch of road so I'm unsure which one got me.

I'm also including my picture from the notice, is this enforcable? you can only just make out the number of my car and cannot see any indication of bus lane in the pic at all, it could have been taken anywhere.

Thanks for any input, just going to upload the pics and attach.

Enceladus
QUOTE (Kalahari @ Wed, 1 Feb 2012 - 23:11) *
Hi,

I'm after some help please, I just got an unexpected Penalty notice in for bus lane use.

My points, firstly the date of offense is 30/12/11 the date of notice is 31/01/12 as this is outside of 28 days is the Penalty already null and void?


Very likely out of date. Certainly worth a challenge on that assumption alone.

Is there any reason for a delay?
EG. Have you recently changed address?
What date is on the V5C for the car?
And is the V5C address your current address?

Please post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of the notice. Scrubbed means blank out or obscure your personal info such as name & address, PCN number and vehicle registration.Please leave everything else visible especially any time, date, location and/or Council info.
Kalahari
Notice



Picture





QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 1 Feb 2012 - 23:21) *
QUOTE (Kalahari @ Wed, 1 Feb 2012 - 23:11) *
Hi,

I'm after some help please, I just got an unexpected Penalty notice in for bus lane use.

My points, firstly the date of offense is 30/12/11 the date of notice is 31/01/12 as this is outside of 28 days is the Penalty already null and void?


Very likely out of date. Certainly worth a challenge on that assumption alone.

Is there any reason for a delay?
EG. Have you recently changed address?
What date is on the V5C for the car?
And is the V5C address your current address?

Please post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of the notice. Scrubbed means blank out or obscure your personal info such as name & address, PCN number and vehicle registration.Please leave everything else visible especially any time, date, location and/or Council info.



Car is registered to me at this address not sure of date on V5 as I lost it a few months back but I got the car about 2 years ago and all my tax renewal forms come here. Lived here for over 8 years.
Enceladus
I cannot make out the dates as the image is a bit too low-res and blurry.
So please post up a list of all of the dates mentioned on the PCN. More specifically the payment dates.
Whatever about anything else, there will likely also be issues with the payment dates, hence my question.

Please send the DVLA template posted here immediately.
Send it 1st class at the Post Office and obtain a free of charge proof of posting. Some members say not to bother with the letter and save a stamp. However I find that thus far the letter has provided definitive proof of impropriety on the part of Liverpool City Council for the cost of a stamp.

This post here and subsequent discusses the applicable rules of service and seems to apply to you and explains why.

Kalahari
Zoomed in image showing dates.

redmagician
Having had a look at the bus lanes signs for Rice Lane on streetview, I don't think they are legal, as the bus symbol includes the word '&coaches' which, as I understand it, is not a permitted variant of signs 958 or 959.
I am aware that streetview images are a few years old, and the signs may have been changed by now, but just an observation.
Neil B
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 1 Feb 2012 - 23:48) *
I cannot make out the dates as the image is a bit too low-res and blurry.
So please post up a list of all of the dates mentioned on the PCN. More specifically the payment dates.


Event 30/12/11
PCN 31/1

14 - 18/2 (+3)
28 - 06/3 (+6)
Kalahari
No sign of DVLA response so I'm going to submit my defense.

Can anyone point me to the best appeal post to copy and paste my details in please.

Going to use the outside of 28 days defense plus the incorrect dates. I'll also throw in a note about it being outside of normal rush hour conditions in case it goes to the adjudicator and he is in a good mood.

Any point in me trying to ask for the exact camera so I know potentially what my defense would be for entering the lane, I'm still unsure which one exactly it was.
bama
IIRC there should be a camera number on the recording.
I can't find it in the CCTV CoP though sad.gif

I wonder does this (still) apply

“If you appeal, we will send you a copy of all our evidence as soon as possible. We must
provide you with a copy of any video, photograph or digital image that we want the Traffic
Adjudicator to consider, at least seven days before the scheduled date of the hearing. We
must also send you a certificate as to the circumstances in which the video etc was
produced and another that the device used to produce it was approved by the Secretary
of State. These certificates will normally be fairly standard. However if you serve a notice
on us, not less than three days before the hearing date, we cannot rely on such evidence
without the person(s) who signed them attending. The three-day limit may be varied by
the Traffic Adjudicator in special circumstances.


Please note that this notification is only required for bus lane appeals and is not required
for appeals for parking contraventions.
Kalahari
smile.gif Sorry to bump but can someone point me in the direction of a good post to use to copy and paste as my appeal please?
Kalahari
QUOTE (Kalahari @ Sun, 12 Feb 2012 - 00:28) *
smile.gif Sorry to bump but can someone point me in the direction of a good post to use to copy and paste as my appeal please?


Anyone?
Gan
Search box in top right hand corner and read through some Rice Lane threads.

Several examples of "This was late. Cancel it or explain why you think it's lawful to pursue"

Liverpool are very well aware of the Rice Lane fiasco so any appeal that shows you can read a calendar should make the point.
Neil B
QUOTE (Kalahari @ Mon, 13 Feb 2012 - 15:21) *
QUOTE (Kalahari @ Sun, 12 Feb 2012 - 00:28) *
smile.gif Sorry to bump but can someone point me in the direction of a good post to use to copy and paste as my appeal please?


Anyone?


I can't speak for others but I know why I found it difficult to respond to that -- I didn't understand the question.

Thatis, too broad a question - where would we start!!
There is a great deal of info in numerous threads - and what you haven't said - is how much you've read so far - and how much you understand? Hence - it makes answering quite difficult.

Late PCNs seem a problem for LCC and we've seen at least one here cancelled for that reason.
It is the most straightforward issue to use - rather than the complexity of how to explain the more general PCN flaws.

I don't know what you want to do - or how much you feel able to do - so more specific questions please?
Kalahari
I have pilfered a few topics and knocked up this response, does it sound ok?

REF: PENALTY CHARGE NOTICE NUMBER xxxxxxxxxx
I am in receipt of the above referenced penalty charge notice.
I wish to make the following representations in respect of the penalty charge notice:

1) That the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

The PCN issued by Liverpool City Council (LCC) fails to comply with, The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005, regulation 8(5) and specifically with regulations, 8(5)(e),(f) 8(5)(g) and 8(5)(k) as it fails to correctly and with certainty, inform the recipient of the lawful periods for payment, for making representations and for enforcement via Charge Certificate. The relevant regulations are quoted below:

"(5) A penalty charge notice must state
(e) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the 28 day period; The notice supplied shows 34 days.
(f) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of the notice, the penalty charge will be reduced by one half; [i]The notice supplied shows 17 days.
(g) that representations may be made, on any of the statutory grounds of appeal, to the authority against the imposition of the penalty charge but that representations made outside the 28 day period may be disregarded;

5(e)(f) No where on the PCN does it state 28 day period/14 day period –you just state dates which do not comply with the above law.

So I want this PCN cancelled on the basis that dates supplied aren’t correct and that it was served outside the time frames as laid down in the bus lane contraventions (penalty charges , adjudication and enforcement) (England) reg 2005 , it has been unlawfully issued, some 32 days after the date of the alleged contravention not 28.

If you wish to uphold my PCN, then I want Liverpool city council to prove that they requested the RK (Registered Keeper) details within the 14 days from DVLA and also that the DVLA failed to provide the RK information before the end of the 28 days.

I also Demand copies of all requests to the DVLA and all responses from the DVLA for this PCN. And also ask for a printout of the computer access record/logs for this PCN.

Should this matter go to adjudication I would also like the following points to be considered.
a) I am unaware of the exact location of the alleged offense and cannot prepare effective defense for it. There are many bus lane cameras in this area and on the date concerned I can only think of 3 possible reasons I may have potentially ventured into the bus lane, without knowing prescisely where though I cannot effectively defend any potential infraction of bus lane enforcement.
The possible reasons are, I entered the lane to gain access to or leave a side road I also moved over to allow an emergency vehicle to pass an obstruction in the oncoming lane.
b) Due to the date of the alleged infraction, it being during the festive period, there was no real traffic on the road that would require a bus lane to be kept clear so it would not be a stretch of the imagination to assume the lane was not being enforced at that time.
Gan
Not bad but I would follow Neil's advice and make the simplest and strongest point first.

The ticket was out of time and not lawfully served

In addition :

The rest of your points.

Your numbering, by the way, is confusing

You were doing well until you started telling the council that you could think of three reasons why you were in the lane including the belief that nobody was watching. Never tell them that you made a mistake. Get rid of the entire paragraph and replace it by :

If the council does not accept this challenge and I am forced to adjudication, I will claim costs resulting from its vexatious behaviour.

Neil B
Very impressed!.

Obviously your level of understanding is up to the mark and you've produced a very well written, concise and to the point representation.

I'd agree with Gan on changing the order.

Not quite sure that I agree with Gan on taking out the 'real life' bit. Admittedly it serves little purpose and will be dismissed out of hand - but --- it is also a true account of how you initially felt about the PCN. I think that adds the, sometimes important, element of a real life experience and the doubts that surround allegations of bus lane contraventions.

If you choose to include that then drop b) for sure IMO.

Also - this should be for response from them NOW =- rather than later at adjudication - so take that caveat out.

Good stuff, good luck.
Enceladus
At the top. No need to quote the detail of the regulations. Just tell them it is void and put the onus on LCC to prove otherwise. And send the DVLA template letter.

QUOTE
Procedural Impropriety:

This Penalty Charge Notice has been served outside of the permitted time-scales as defined by regulation 8 of the "The Bus Lane Contraventions (Penalty Charges, Adjudication and Enforcement) (England) Regulations 2005". Therefore the Penalty Charge Notice is null and void and unenforceable. I demand that you cancel it immediately and confirm such by return of post.

I further demand that you provide proof of how and why the Penalty Charge Notice has been legally served, if you not willing to cancel the Notice. I would remind you of your statutory obligations to disclose relevant evidence as early as possible in the enforcement process.

Kalahari
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 15 Feb 2012 - 01:25) *
Very impressed!.

Obviously your level of understanding is up to the mark and you've produced a very well written, concise and to the point representation.


Sadly I can't take all the credit, I know where the notices are wrong and why I understand that bit but I swiped all the legalese talk from other posts. Thats why my bit at the end sounds a bit rubbish, cheers for all the comments, sending them my tweaked appeal now.
Gan
My attitude to this is closer to Enceladus' than Neil's.

They know that they sent out a batch of unlawful PCNs but are quite happy to allow their victims to pay up anyway. To me this is misfeasance in public office - a criminal offence.

I don't see any reason to be friendly
pleb0981
Liverpool will cancel the PCN if you explain that it was served out-of-time. The Council has published a document detailing the appeal process.
Source: Appeals Policy - page 9

The image was taken by Camera no.8 - this is close to the end of the bus lane, approaching Eskdale Road.

You state that you are unaware of the exact location of the contravention. The PCN gives you the option of viewing the video or requesting a copy on DVD. If you fail to take advantage of this option, you cannot complain about lack of knowledge.
bama
yes you can !
the PCN contents are what matters.

driver/RK could be hundreds of miles away and LAs are loath to send dvds on request - without charging a tenner for them when they can be bothered to do it at all
Enceladus
QUOTE (pleb0981 @ Fri, 17 Feb 2012 - 19:47) *
Liverpool will cancel the PCN if you explain that it was served out-of-time. The Council has published a document detailing the appeal process.
Source: Appeals Policy - page 9

The image was taken by Camera no.8 - this is close to the end of the bus lane, approaching Eskdale Road.

You state that you are unaware of the exact location of the contravention. The PCN gives you the option of viewing the video or requesting a copy on DVD. If you fail to take advantage of this option, you cannot complain about lack of knowledge.

I do not understand what you mean? I have looked at the link provided, examined page 9 of the "Appeals Policy" document. Page 8 relates to the use of discretion and pages 9 & 10 relate to Pay & Display.

Please quote the relevant paragraphs.

The issue here is whether or not Liverpool City Council have complied with the law of the land as laid down by Parliament. I accept that Liverpool City Council do have discretion, in these circumstances, to rectify their own accidental errors. However they cannot play fast and loose with the law of the land as a matter of general policy and then claim discretion as the standard remedy.
IE:
LCC issue PCNs even though they know they are illegal.
LCC accept the cash when it is paid.
And if anyone happens to complain in a manner that suggests LCC might be found out, we will use the appeal process to cancel the PCN.

Such a scenario is not just malfeasance in public office. It is gross, deliberate and vexatious malfeasance. And those responsible in Liverpool, need to be brought to account
Kalahari
Update:

No reply from LCC either in the form of demands for payment, cancellation of the notice or even a polite we're dealing with it please wait.

Should I do anything? If I leave it is there a date at which they lose their chance to fine me?
Neil B
I'd chase them but wait to see what others think too.

I'd actually send something asking them why you haven't yet been notified the PCN is cancelled.

QUOTE (Gan @ Wed, 15 Feb 2012 - 11:58) *
My attitude to this is closer to Enceladus' than Neil's.

They know that they sent out a batch of unlawful PCNs but are quite happy to allow their victims to pay up anyway. To me this is misfeasance in public office - a criminal offence.

I don't see any reason to be friendly


Gan!! laugh.gif

I fell off me chair having only just read that!!

Me friendly with LCC?? !!! laugh.gif laugh.gif

I must have said something daft in the thread somewhere!!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.