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FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
karnei
Hi Guys!

My story is I received PCN for parking in Harrow, I was doing a job and parked at resident permit bay it was actually job for council social services, when job finished returned to my car and never saw a ticket, as it was raining heavily I assume it has been washed away or someone actually took it, only find out about it existence when was paying another one. When look on the pictures on council website it show the ticket attached to windscreen, but I have never saw it and the discount has already expired. When I raised those points to the council received this letter below. Is it legal for council to charge for PCN even when person never received the original ticket and how to fight back?
Thank you for your help.





Korting
Have they sent you any pictures taken by the CEO? Is there a picture of a PCN on the car?

I had a similar case a few years ago, like me you have nothing to lose by taking this to PATAS.

In my case the pictures taken by the CEO showed that the PCN wasn't attached properly and was about to come off even while he attended the vehicle and I won on the basis that the ticket had not been properly served.
karnei
QUOTE (Michael 194 @ Tue, 24 Jan 2012 - 13:47) *
Have they sent you any pictures taken by the CEO? Is there a picture of a PCN on the car?

I had a similar case a few years ago, like me you have nothing to lose by taking this to PATAS.

In my case the pictures taken by the CEO showed that the PCN wasn't attached properly and was about to come off even while he attended the vehicle and I won on the basis that the ticket had not been properly served.



Hi I only saw a pictures online when you enter reference number for a payments and it is showed ticket attached to windscreen. Could you please tell me the steps that you took to fight it back. Thank you.
clark_kent
The letter you received is actually wrong it states you have 14 days to pay the £110 which is rubbish you have 28 days from when you get the NTO.
SchoolRunMum
Anyway, wait for the NTO and post it here when it arrives.

Out of interest I would recommend you look to appeal any Council PCN in future, now you have found pepipoo forum. Most people win and I was a bit sad to see you only found out about this one when 'paying another PCN'. Anyway keep this thread for this PCn and NTO and see if we can help, you have NOTHING to lose as long as you don't ignore the NTO or any letters.
karnei
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 24 Jan 2012 - 21:55) *
Anyway, wait for the NTO and post it here when it arrives.

Out of interest I would recommend you look to appeal any Council PCN in future, now you have found pepipoo forum. Most people win and I was a bit sad to see you only found out about this one when 'paying another PCN'. Anyway keep this thread for this PCn and NTO and see if we can help, you have NOTHING to lose as long as you don't ignore the NTO or any letters.


Thanks Michael .I will definitely update you on how things are going and from now on I will challenge every future ticket, because I hate when the councils want to make as much money as possible from the drivers and this getting out of order now with the cameras on every street in the town and traffic warden on every corner.
hcandersen
The details of the alleged contravention are sketchy.

The council's letter implies that you were neither displaying a parking ticket nor a permit. And yet you acknowledge that you were parked in a res parking place. So you park in res parking places without the benefit of displaying the required ticket/permit? Or don't you?

It is rather important because IMO accepted flagrant disregard for parking regs doesn't normally go down well at adjudication.

HCA
karnei
QUOTE (karnei @ Thu, 26 Jan 2012 - 20:53) *
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 24 Jan 2012 - 21:55) *
Anyway, wait for the NTO and post it here when it arrives.

Out of interest I would recommend you look to appeal any Council PCN in future, now you have found pepipoo forum. Most people win and I was a bit sad to see you only found out about this one when 'paying another PCN'. Anyway keep this thread for this PCn and NTO and see if we can help, you have NOTHING to lose as long as you don't ignore the NTO or any letters.


Thanks Michael .I will definitely update you on how things are going and from now on I will challenge every future ticket, because I hate when the councils want to make as much money as possible from the drivers and this getting out of order now with the cameras on every street in the town and traffic warden on every corner.


Hi guys NTO received after 5 months 19 days,

pictures









Can I appeal on the following reason :

The Notice to owner has been sent five months and nineteen days after the alleged offence. The law says ad follows:

TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT ACT 2004, THE SECRETARY OF STATE’S STATUTORY GUIDANCE TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES ON THE CIVIL ENFORCEMENT OF PARKING CONTRAVENTIONS

75. If the penalty charge is not paid the enforcement authority may issue a Notice to Owner (NtO). The purpose of the NtO is to ensure that the PCN was
received by the vehicle owner and to remind the vehicle owner that the PCN
is now due to be paid in full and if it is not paid within a further 28 days it may be increased. The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the PCN, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days after serving the PCN. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is six months from the “relevant date”. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve a notice to owner.

There is no good reason for this unjustified delay.

THANK YOU.
SchoolRunMum
Yep, cite that and reiterate your other points of appeal from before all over again. Draft a reply and you should get more comments to fine tune it.
Neil B
It would be a bit of a trawl but I suggest you see if you can find another 'ghost' PCN thread in relation to this Council.

- cos, to not re-offer the discount in such circumstances is somewhat unusaul, let alone make comment about not doing so? i.e. what have they done for others?

(or, from some odd exchanges here, have we established that you did actually get this PCN originally?)

karnei
I will write to Harrow council the following:

1.I believe that PCN should be cancelled, for the reasons already provided in my previous email.

2. There has been procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority, for the following reason:

the Notice to owner has been sent five months and nineteen days after the alleged offence. The law says ad follows:

TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT ACT 2004, THE SECRETARY OF STATE’S STATUTORY GUIDANCE TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES ON THE CIVIL ENFORCEMENT OF PARKING CONTRAVENTIONS

75. If the penalty charge is not paid the enforcement authority may issue a Notice to Owner (NtO). The purpose of the NtO is to ensure that the PCN was
received by the vehicle owner and to remind the vehicle owner that the PCN
is now due to be paid in full and if it is not paid within a further 28 days it may be increased. The NtO may be issued 28 days after serving the PCN, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days after serving the PCN. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is six months from the “relevant date”. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve a notice to owner.

There is no good reason for this unjustified delay.


Any suggestion please.

Thank you!
Neil B
Before you do, can you think of any particular reason the NtO may have been delayed, i.e. delays the Council may have encountered in obtaining your details?
karnei
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 07:52) *
Before you do, can you think of any particular reason the NtO may have been delayed, i.e. delays the Council may have encountered in obtaining your details?



They have my details when they send a respond on my email, the copy of that letter in the first post of this topic. Could you explain please what you mean?
Thanks.
Neil B
QUOTE (karnei @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 20:23) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 07:52) *
Before you do, can you think of any particular reason the NtO may have been delayed, i.e. delays the Council may have encountered in obtaining your details?



They have my details when they send a respond on my email, the copy of that letter in the first post of this topic. Could you explain please what you mean?
Thanks.


You contacted the Council before an NtO was issued because you 'heard' about the PCN by chance.

They shouldn't use those details to issue an NtO.

They should apply for RK details from DVLA. So, the question is, bearing in mind the NtO is issued unreasonably late, what do you know, if anything, that you haven't told us, that might be a reason for such a delay?

I can't put words in your mouth. Either you are RK or not?
karnei
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 20:40) *
QUOTE (karnei @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 20:23) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 24 Jun 2012 - 07:52) *
Before you do, can you think of any particular reason the NtO may have been delayed, i.e. delays the Council may have encountered in obtaining your details?



They have my details when they send a respond on my email, the copy of that letter in the first post of this topic. Could you explain please what you mean?
Thanks.


You contacted the Council before an NtO was issued because you 'heard' about the PCN by chance.

They shouldn't use those details to issue an NtO.

They should apply for RK details from DVLA. So, the question is, bearing in mind the NtO is issued unreasonably late, what do you know, if anything, that you haven't told us, that might be a reason for such a delay?

I can't put words in your mouth. Either you are RK or not?

I am RK and explained everything I know in my previous posts, as I said I never get the actual ticket and found out about it when was paying for another one, by that time discount has expired when I emailed council and explained what has happened and asked them to let me pay at discount rate received a letter which you can see in my first post.
I always paying my PCN, but because they refused to let me pay at discount rate that why I am here and I will use every opportunity possible to fight this one.
Neil B
OK.

You'd be amazed what people suddenly remember later when they ask for help here. We just have to be sure and check.

So, we've established you are RK and it's not a lease or Company car; Your details should have been available from DVLA much earlier and there is no particular reason for the delay.

What you are proposing to quote at them is valid but only Guidance. Then again, there is a general requirement to act reasonably. Have a read of the PATAS key cases of Davis v Kensington, which deal with such delays.

Also, you don't seem to have used the info Clark gave you; That is, an unlawful statement in the original rejection. It's quite a strong point.

BUT - you will need to sort these things quite soon as your deadline isn't that far off.
karnei
Hi guys,

Received official notice of rejection on my appeal with a form to appeal to adjudicator.

Should I just pay the fine or try my luck with adjudicator?

Thank you for yours advice.
Incandescent
You have noting whatever to lose now by going to adjudication, as you are now liable for the full amount. If the adjudicator agrees with your case, you will pay nothing. If he disagrees, you have to pay the amount you already know.
Neil B
QUOTE (karnei @ Mon, 16 Jul 2012 - 08:32) *
Hi guys,

Received official notice of rejection on my appeal with a form to appeal to adjudicator.

Should I just pay the fine or try my luck with adjudicator?

Thank you for yours advice.


To be frank, for you, it does just turn into a matter of luck; You neither answer our questions or acknowledge (or use?) references to relevant info.

-- HCA, at least, asked a question a while back,

-- I referenced a patas key case that is relevant,

-- we haven't seen any rejection?

-- we haven't seen your submitted reps.

--------
I think you need to establish when the Council applied to DVLA for your details.
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