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Super Gremlin
Hi all,

Got this PCN for parking in a residents bay in the wrong zone, code 19w (which i didn't know existed). I popped into a shop which should have taken a minute at most but got stuck in a queue for nearly 10 mins, pcn was issued within minutes of me leaving the car, literally! Bay & signage look compliant. Was wondering if anyone could see anything wrong on the PCN which i might be missing. Would really appreciate any help at all. Thanks.



hcandersen
IMO code 19 and the suffix "w", which means "wrong zone", are incompatible.

AIUI, 19 only applies to permits that have been valid for the location at an earlier time, and "w" means you're in a zone where your permit has no validity.

Unless perhaps there's a special provision in the traffic orders which allows permits holders to park in other zones for limited periods, I cannot square this circle.

HCA

Super Gremlin
Thanks for your response HCA,

Sorry, just want to check i'm understanding what you're saying correctly?

I was displaying a permit that is currently valid, but for a different zone in Camden, therefore should the offence have been a code 12?

And if that is the case, i know it's clutching at straws but could i challenge on the grounds that the contravention did not occur?

Thanks.
clark_kent
I agree in principle with HCA and that is what 19 is intended for and used for by all the Councils I know and would argue that point myself if I got a PCN, but the contravention as stated on the PCN is on the face of it correct you did have a permit that was invalid in that bay.
hcandersen
Since when has wrong contravention been clutching at straws?

Qu. When was your permit valid for the zone?
Ans. There are two possible answers:
1. It was valid at the time of contravention.
2. It was never valid for that zone because it applies only to another zone(s).

For 1, contravention didn't occur.
For 2, contravention 12 applies.

So how can we have contravention 19?

Make your challenge i.e. if a contravention occurred it was failure to display a valid permit code 12). They might not accept it, but that's councils for you. At the end of your challenge state that if the council do not accept your challenge then you require them to explain how and when the permit which you were displaying was valid for that location.


HCA
clark_kent
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 17 Jan 2012 - 11:34) *
Since when has wrong contravention been clutching at straws?

Qu. When was your permit valid for the zone?
Ans. There are two possible answers:
1. It was valid at the time of contravention.
2. It was never valid for that zone because it applies only to another zone(s).

For 1, contravention didn't occur.
For 2, contravention 12 applies.

So how can we have contravention 19?

Make your challenge i.e. if a contravention occurred it was failure to display a valid permit code 12). They might not accept it, but that's councils for you. At the end of your challenge state that if the council do not accept your challenge then you require them to explain how and when the permit which you were displaying was valid for that location.


HCA


12 includes the words 'for that zone' however for reasons unknown 19 does not do so, it would therefore appear down to local policy which code is used arguing you should have been 'fined' a greater amount is an interesting argument.
hcandersen
And whereas we might consider that invalid is simply the opposite of valid, that's not how London Councils' contraventions describe them (and in this respect they have the force of law because they determine contravention descriptions and therefore penalty charges in London, subject to confirmation).

Code 12 has two components in this regard:
Was a permit of any type on display? If not, guilty as charged. But if yes, then what sort of permit? If it was a permit which was valid at some time but whose validity had elapsed, then 19 applies.

What's a valid permit?
A permit which applies to a specified vehicle and is valid in the location specified in the PCN.

In this case the vehicle details were OK, but the permit was not valid for that location (wrong zone). IMO, it might just as well have been a permit issued by a different council, the argument's the same.

OP - you must pursue this and should they reject you must get them to declare why.

HCA
clark_kent
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 17 Jan 2012 - 11:47) *
And whereas we might consider that invalid is simply the opposite of valid, that's not how London Councils' contraventions describe them (and in this respect they have the force of law because they determine contravention descriptions and therefore penalty charges in London, subject to confirmation).

Code 12 has two components in this regard:
Was a permit of any type on display? If not, guilty as charged. But if yes, then what sort of permit? If it was a permit which was valid at some time but whose validity had elapsed, then 19 applies.

What's a valid permit?
A permit which applies to a specified vehicle and is valid in the location specified in the PCN.

In this case the vehicle details were OK, but the permit was not valid for that location (wrong zone). IMO, it might just as well have been a permit issued by a different council, the argument's the same.

OP - you must pursue this and should they reject you must get them to declare why.

HCA



If you go back to when 12/19 were introduced it was common place for Councils to issue a 12 after 14/30 days or some other arbitary timeline that a permit had expired. PATAS ruled that regardless of any Council policy it was not down to the motorist to decipher why they got a PCN the wording on the PCN should be self explanatory they either had a permit or they did not. You are now arguing the opposite and saying that the wording of the contravention is not relevant it is fact London Councils interpretation of the wording that the motorist should be aware of. Codes are for administrative purposes the PCN is required to state the grounds for issuing a PCN, the OP had a permit for zone B and parked in zone A his permit was therefore invalid.
Super Gremlin
Thanks for all your replies, just found this:

Camden's Parking Services Enforcement Protocol

Residents and shared used parking places
Contravention Code: 12
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking space without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
A contravention occur when parking is restricted for resident permit holders only, or shared with other types of permit or Pay and Display facilities, and the vehicle has no valid document on display that would allow it to be parked in that particular parking place. For example, a vehicle displaying a Pay and Display ticket when parked within a resident parking place is considered to be a vehicle with no valid document on display for that parking place. Similarly, a vehicle displaying a handwritten note, or a resident’s permit for a different CPZ, would be classed as having no valid document on display. If a visitor to a resident receives a PCN for a Code 12 contravention, and evidence can be provided in the form of a letter from the resident, or a visitors’ permit valid on that date and at that time, then we will offer the lower rate penalty charge.

Contravention Code: 19
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking space with an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket. A PCN will be issued using this code when it is evident that some attempt has been made to park legally within that parking place but what has been displayed is incorrect. For example, a vehicle parked within a resident parking place displaying a visitor’s permit that has been incorrectly scratched out. Similarly, a code 19 PCN will be issued after the expiry of time on a
pay and display ticket when a vehicle is parked within a shared use Resident Permit/Pay and Display parking place.

The way i'm reading it, HCA is correct in that they have quoted the wrong contravention (irrespective of codes). Anyone agree?

Thanks.
hcandersen
Don't forget, we're not you're arbiters and it's not us you have to convince. This is not Opportunity Knocks' Clap-o-meter.

IMO you've got more than enough to use in a challenge so I'd get on with it.


HCA
clark_kent
QUOTE (Super Gremlin @ Tue, 17 Jan 2012 - 14:15) *
The way i'm reading it, HCA is correct in that they have quoted the wrong contravention (irrespective of codes). Anyone agree?

Thanks.



Don't get me wrong as far as the intended use of 19 goes its the wrong contravention, I'm just looking at it at face value.
Super Gremlin
Hi all,

Thanks again for all your replies, this is the response i've put together, would be very grateful if you'd let me know your thoughts on it, is it ok, saying too much, too little, as i'm not sure if i've worded it correctly.
Thanks.

I wish to challenge this PCN on the grounds that the contravention as described did not occur:

The PCN states the contravention as:

Parked in a residents or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time - wrong zone
Code: 19W

According to the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook the following applies:

CODE: 19
Penalty charge level:
Lower
Code description:
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket.
Code contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit, voucher or pay and display ticket that would have been valid for that parking place at some time.
Extra information to be recorded:
• Details of any out of date or incorrect permit
• Details of any other permit displayed
• Details of any pay and display ticket
• Arrival time and value of voucher(s)
• Serial number(s) of ticket and voucher(s).
Notes:
If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued. For payments that relate to the day of issue, e.g. pay and display tickets and vouchers which have been validated by a third party, then code 19 should be used. For vouchers and scratch cards which have user input, in cases where the wrong date is filled in or scratched off then code
19 applies.

CODE: 12
Penalty charge level:
Higher
Code description:
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place.
Code contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a residents’ or shared use bay during controlled hours and either fails to display a permit, pay and display ticket or voucher or fails to pay the appropriate charge for that parking place.
Extra information to be recorded:
• Details of any pay and display tickets, permits or vouchers displayed, with reasons why they are invalid for that place.
Notes:
If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued. For payments that relate to the day of issue, e.g. pay and display tickets and vouchers which have been validated by a third party, then code 19 should be used. For vouchers and scratch cards which have user input, in cases where the wrong date is filled in or scratched off then code 19

Furthermore Camden's Parking Services Enforcement Protocol states::

Residents and shared used parking places

Contravention Code: 12
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking space without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
A contravention occur when parking is restricted for resident permit holders only, or shared with other types of permit or Pay and Display facilities, and the vehicle has no valid document on display that would allow it to be parked in that particular parking place. For example, a vehicle displaying a Pay and Display ticket when parked within a resident parking place is considered to be a vehicle with no valid document on display for that parking place. Similarly, a vehicle displaying a handwritten note, or a resident’s permit for a different CPZ, would be classed as having no valid document on display. If a visitor to a resident receives a PCN for a Code 12 contravention, and evidence can be provided in the form of a letter from the resident, or a visitors’ permit valid on that date and at that time, then we will offer the lower rate penalty charge.

Contravention Code: 19
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking space with an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket. A PCN will be issued using this code when it is evident that some attempt has been made to park legally within that parking place but what has been displayed is incorrect. For example, a vehicle parked within a resident parking place displaying a visitor’s permit that has been incorrectly scratched out. Similarly, a code 19 PCN will be issued after the expiry of time on a pay and display ticket when a vehicle is parked within a shared use Resident Permit/Pay and Display parking place.

I would argue that at the time the PCN was issued there was a valid permit for that vehicle on display, therefore the contravention and code 19w as described on the PCN are incorrect. If a contravention did occur, it was failure to display a valid permit which is a code 12. I would request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith.

If you do not accept this challenge i would ask that you explain how and when the permit that i was displaying was valid for that location.







hcandersen
It's difficult to pick out the argument regarding why the contravention did not occur from the recital of the legal position and Camden's policy.

I think you'll need to bring your argument to the fore and use the rest as support for that argument.

HCA
Super Gremlin
Thank you HCA, sorry if i sound a bit slow on the uptake here, but is this any better or have i misunderstood what you meant? If i have could you please clarify, thanks again.


I wish to challenge this PCN on the grounds that the contravention as described did not occur.

The PCN states the contravention as:

Parked in a residents or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time - wrong zone
Code: 19W

I would argue that at the time the PCN was issued there was a valid permit for that vehicle on display, therefore the contravention and code 19w as described on the PCN are incorrect, as defined in both the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook (2011) & Camden’s Parking Services Enforcement Protocol. If a contravention did occur, it was failure to display a valid permit which is a code 12.

According to the Civil Enforcement Officers Handbook (2011) the following applies:

CODE: 19
Penalty charge level:
Lower
Code description:
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket.
Code contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit, voucher or pay and display ticket that would have been valid for that parking place at some time.
Extra information to be recorded:
• Details of any out of date or incorrect permit
• Details of any other permit displayed
• Details of any pay and display ticket
• Arrival time and value of voucher(s)
• Serial number(s) of ticket and voucher(s).
Notes:
If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued. For payments that relate to the day of issue, e.g. pay and display tickets and vouchers which have been validated by a third party, then code 19 should be used. For vouchers and scratch cards which have user input, in cases where the wrong date is filled in or scratched off then code
19 applies.

CODE: 12
Penalty charge level:
Higher
Code description:
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place.
Code contravention:
The contravention occurs when a vehicle waits in a residents’ or shared use bay during controlled hours and either fails to display a permit, pay and display ticket or voucher or fails to pay the appropriate charge for that parking place.
Extra information to be recorded:
• Details of any pay and display tickets, permits or vouchers displayed, with reasons why they are invalid for that place.
Notes:
If a previously valid permit has expired then code 19 should be issued. For payments that relate to the day of issue, e.g. pay and display tickets and vouchers which have been validated by a third party, then code 19 should be used. For vouchers and scratch cards which have user input, in cases where the wrong date is filled in or scratched off then code 19

Furthermore Camden's Parking Services Enforcement Protocol states::

Residents and shared used parking places

Contravention Code: 12
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking space without clearly displaying either a permit or voucher or a pay and display ticket issued for that place.
A contravention occur when parking is restricted for resident permit holders only, or shared with other types of permit or Pay and Display facilities, and the vehicle has no valid document on display that would allow it to be parked in that particular parking place. For example, a vehicle displaying a Pay and Display ticket when parked within a resident parking place is considered to be a vehicle with no valid document on display for that parking place. Similarly, a vehicle displaying a handwritten note, or a resident’s permit for a different CPZ, would be classed as having no valid document on display. If a visitor to a resident receives a PCN for a Code 12 contravention, and evidence can be provided in the form of a letter from the resident, or a visitors’ permit valid on that date and at that time, then we will offer the lower rate penalty charge.

Contravention Code: 19
Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking space with an invalid permit, an invalid voucher or an invalid pay and display ticket. A PCN will be issued using this code when it is evident that some attempt has been made to park legally within that parking place but what has been displayed is incorrect. For example, a vehicle parked within a resident parking place displaying a visitor’s permit that has been incorrectly scratched out. Similarly, a code 19 PCN will be issued after the expiry of time on a pay and display ticket when a vehicle is parked within a shared use Resident Permit/Pay and Display parking place.

On this basis i would request that the PCN be cancelled forthwith. If you do not accept this challenge i would ask that you explain how and when the permit that i was displaying was valid for that location as required by the above descriptors for contravention code 19.


Super Gremlin
Hi all,

Can anyone please advise if this is looks ok to submit as need to get it in to them.

Thanks.
hcandersen
Contravention 19 presumes that the permit or ticket on display had been valid at some time (as per the London Councils definition), but your argument is that your permit was not and never had been valid for that location and this is supported by the suffix used by the council ("w") which is defined by London Councils as " (w) wrong parking zone". Clearly, if the vehicle was displaying a permit (which is acknowledged by the council) and this was for the "wrong zone" then it is self-evident that the permit could never had been valid for the zone in question and therefore contravention 19 is incorrect and therefore the PCN fails to state correct grounds and must be cancelled. (you don't have to state what contravention might have been correct, that's irrelevant, we'll just deal with the council's grounds as stated).


HCA
clark_kent
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 19 Jan 2012 - 09:49) *
Contravention 19 presumes that the permit or ticket on display had been valid at some time (as per the London Councils definition), but your argument is that your permit was not and never had been valid for that location and this is supported by the suffix used by the council ("w") which is defined by London Councils as " (w) wrong parking zone". Clearly, if the vehicle was displaying a permit (which is acknowledged by the council) and this was for the "wrong zone" then it is self-evident that the permit could never had been valid for the zone in question and therefore contravention 19 is incorrect and therefore the PCN fails to state correct grounds and must be cancelled. (you don't have to state what contravention might have been correct, that's irrelevant, we'll just deal with the council's grounds as stated).


HCA


The PCN doesn't say it ever was valid, just that its invalid because its the wrong zone, the contravention did therefore take place. If you take the PCN at face value without knowing that a 12 could have been used or that London Councils suggest which one is best suited to each situation then the PCN states the situation correctly. Some councils use an 05 for an expired P&D in a shared use bay some use 19 it doesn't make either wrong. I suspect Camden will cancel if the code is not the correct one as per their instructions to CEOs but I cannot see an adjudicator agreeing that an invalid permit was not being used.
Super Gremlin
Thanks for your help guys,

have submitted challenge.....will let you know!
Super Gremlin
Hi All,

Just received this letter from Camden and wondered what you're views on it were. Wondered if you could give any advice on whether you think it's worth fighting on or not. I'm still inclined to believe i have a valid case but i'm just not sure if it's strong enough. I'm going by the letter of the reg's as laid out..and i still think the pcn is incorrectly issued. Any thoughts/advice/help greatly appreciated.
Thanks.



SchoolRunMum
It's up to you - nothing has changed and I think a rejection at this stage was expected. Happens to almost everyone in the hope that you will fold and pay the discounted amount. It's the game they play - don't let it make you doubt your reasons for appealing in the first place.

If you decide to await the NTO to proceed with formal reps in due course, you need to know it will be then '£80 or nothing' and you'll need to be prepared to go to adjudication over it (which is not Court, it's a straightforward meeting in a room to look at both sides and to tell you whether to pay the £80 or not). Most people still win who post here, not everyone though, so it's your call now whether to sit tight and wait for that NTO.
Super Gremlin
Hi All,

Been fighting this PCN on grounds of wrong contravention. This is the NOR received last week and the previous NTO. Kept my responses to both the same as the original informal appeal against the PCN, apart from asking for the CEO's notes & TMO (which they've supplied). Still intend to appeal to PATAS using the same argument but just wondered if anyone could spot any errors on their paperwork that i may also be able to use. Really appreciate your help, thanks guys.

NOR

NOR

NTO

NTO

NTO

nto
SchoolRunMum
Well I can't see anything else to add to your argument about the wrong code.

I looked back at the earlier part of this thread and you have the support of HCA and Clark Kent about that issue. It would be down to the decision of the adjudicator at PATAS of course so as long as you are prepared to pay £80 if your final appeal is not successful then go for it. Good luck!
Super Gremlin
Thanks SRM, will post outcome.
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