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Paul_uk74
Hi all

I received a PCN on 03/01/2012 at 1248 hours.

The contravention is a 30F Parked for longer than permitted (Free parking bay)

The bay in which I was parked has signage stating Mon - Sat 8am - 6pm 4 hours, no return within 2 hours.

The PCN states Observation times from 0837 to 1248 hours.

I will add scans of PCN and photos below.

I have written to the council as below.


"I received a PCN by CEO ***** on 03/01/12 at 1248 hours, with the above reference number.

The PCN,s observation times are from 0837 to 1248 hours. I was parked in one of two free bays and the signage states that I can park Mon - Sat 8am - 6pm for 4 hours and no return within 2 hours.

I believe that the observation times do not constitute evidence to prove the alleged contravention.

I therefore respectfully request a true, unedited and unredacted copy of the CEOs pocket notes and digital images and any other contemporaneous, unedited and unredacted documents in relation to my vehicle and alleged contravention please.

Kind Regards"


I have received a reply from the council as below.

"Thank you for your enquiry concerning the Penalty Charge Notice detailed above.

I have given careful consideration to the circumstances you have described but regret that there are not sufficient grounds for the Notice to be withdrawn.

The Notice was issued to your vehicle as it was parked for a time exceeding the maximum period of 4 hours in a restricted parking area. The Civil Enforcement Officer first observed your vehicle at 8.37AM, and on returning to the area at 12.48PM your vehicle was noted still parked in the same position, and the Penalty Charge Notice was therefore issued. Images taken of your vehicle at the time that Penalty Charge Notice was issued can be viewed when challenging your Notice on our website at www.birmingham.gov.uk/pcn.

I must advise you that it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that all signage is checked and that their vehicle is not parked in contravention of any restrictions in place. In this instance, it would have been advisable arrange parking where a contravention would not have occurred.

Therefore I must rely on the observations of the Civil Enforcement Officer and regret that I am unable to withdraw the Penalty Charge Notice.

In accordance with Birmingham City Council's Discretion Policy, each case is judged on its own merits, taking into account the exceptionality of the circumstances. The decision to enforce this case has therefore been made in accordance with this policy which can be viewed on www.birmingham.gov.uk/pcn.

You may still take advantage of the reduced charge of £25.00 if payment for the Penalty Charge Notice is received by the 01/02/2012, BUT the discounted rate is not available after this date and the full charge of £50.00 will be due if payment is not received in time.

If you would like to make payment by credit or debit card, please telephone 0845 260 2700, (calls to this number will be free of charge for BT customers and for non-BT customers calls will be charged at the local rate. Calls from mobiles will vary), this service is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, or pay on-line www.birmingham.gov.uk/PCNhttp://www.birmingham.gov.uk/PCN. Please have the Penalty Charge Notice number and your credit card details available.

Alternatively, cheques or Postal Orders should be made payable to 'Birmingham City Council (Highways)' and forwarded to Birmingham City Council, Environment & Culture Directorate PO Box 77 Birmingham B4 7WA, quoting the Penalty Charge Notice number.

If you choose not to send payment in response to this letter, but wish to challenge the matter further and you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, please wait until the formal Notice to Owner is sent to you. This letter offers the opportunity to make a formal representation against the Penalty Charge Notice. Legislation requires the Council to send a formal Notice to Owner to the registered keeper of the vehicle if payment is not made in relation to the Penalty Charge Notice. If you are not the keeper, formal representations may still be made on your behalf by contacting the registered keeper of the vehicle.

Please Note: It is not possible to enter into any further correspondence until a formal representation is received in response to the Notice to Owner. Any additional correspondence received from you prior to the Notice to Owner being issued will therefore not receive a reply but will be considered should any formal representation be received in response to the Notice to Owner.

The Traffic Management Act 2004 sets out the following statutory grounds on which representations may be made:

1. The alleged contravention did not occur.
2. I was never the owner of the vehicle in question/ or
I had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the alleged contravention occurred/ or
I became its owner after the date on which the alleged contravention occurred.
3. The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner.
4. We are a vehicle-hire firm and the vehicle was on hire under a hiring agreement and the hirer had signed a statement acknowledging liability for any PCN issued during the hiring period.
5. The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.
6. There has been a procedural impropriety by the enforcement authority
7. The Order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned is invalid.
8. This Notice should not have been served because the penalty charge had already been paid:
(i) in full; or
(ii) at the discounted rate set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the Traffic Management Act 2004 Act and within the time specified in paragraph 1(h) of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007.
9. If there are any other reasons why you consider the Council should cancel the penalty charge notice and refund any sum already paid.

If you make a representation and it is accepted, the Penalty Charge Notice will be withdrawn. If not, the full amount of £50.00 will become due, unless you wish to make an appeal. Full details will be given to you of the appeals procedure, which allows a case to be heard by an independent adjudicator at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The Traffic Penalty Tribunal is an independent tribunal service where impartial lawyers consider appeals by motorists.

Yours sincerely"


I cant help but feel that the responder has sent a generic reply and just added the relevant times.

I have not had the CEO notes and the photos are freely available for me to view online.

Do I have a case or should I just pay up?

Your thoughts and advice are greatly apppreciated

Kind regards
Paul.


Photos and PCN below.













Paul_uk74
Based on the reply from them I am thinking that I should reply back stating that I have not been given what I have requested therefore I am not being given a fair chance of appeal and also the chance to take advantage of the 50% discount offer should I decide to pay up?

There is no evidence in the PCN to suggest that I had not left the bay and returned 2 hours later.

What are your thoughts on this please?

Regards
Paul.
SchoolRunMum
The PCN looks OK to me so nothing strikes me there as grounds for appeal.

Do any of the photos online show the position of your wheel valves at the earlier time? I suspect not, there was no reason to take pics then but the CEO should have recorded the wheel valve positions when he first saw the car and those notes should be contemporaneous in the notebook.

I think I would buzz a reply straight back saying firstly that your last letter was not an appeal but was clearly just a request for information, Not only have they wrongly treated a request as an appeal but they have not supplied the information requested either. So you are now writing to advise that your informal appeal is that the contravention did not occur and the Council have not shown evidence to prove that the vehicle remained in the same place for over 4 hours. That was the reason for your initial request for the CEO's contemporaneous notes and in addition could they supply a copy of the case progress report. You wish to see whether the position of the wheel valves has indeed been recorded at the earlier time and whether they were the same as in the later photos.

Without such information how can the Council expect you to make an informed decision about whether to pay the discounted amount or appeal further?

Yours sincerely...
Paul_uk74
Hi SRM

Thankyou for your speedy response and help.

If the council do provide evidence that the valves were noted initially and are as per photos where would I stand?

Is this the only way this contravention can be proved?

Surely valves can be the same after moving the vehicle or not?

Regards
Paul.
SchoolRunMum
Sorry for late reply. You have until 1/2/12 to pay the lower amount anyway so you may as well reply as you actually haven't yet appealed IMHO.

If they show the valves were recorded more than 4 hours before as being in the same position then your position is not so clear cut. Not to say that you may not find other grounds on which to appeal, maybe a dodgy Notice to Owner or dodgy Traffic Order if you have the time & inclination to take an appeal further. Most people who go as far as adjudication win, but not all of course!

The wheel valves will be the info that I would expect the CEO to have recorded, yes, otherwise he/she cannot so easily show that the vehicle remained in the same position for that time. And it's been said here before that the chances of both wheel valves being in the same position compared to the same place on the adjacent kerb are very minimal.

But they haven't even bothered to show you their 'evidence', so don't delay, send off that appeal on Monday pointing out that the last letter was only a request for info which they seem to have overlooked.
hcandersen
I don't think it's that straightforward.

According to you there were only 2 bays and so it would not be unreasonable that if the CEO noted (and he would have to have entered your VRM in his notebook on his first pass at 08.37 to count as evidence) your car and then saw it in the same position over 4 hours later his belief as to the contravention was reasonable and that is strong prima facie evidence against you.

If you were there for that period you cannot say that you weren't and so where does this leave you? IMO you would not succeed at appeal based on what you've stated because, as pointed out earlier, the decision would be made on the balance of probabilities. I think we'd need to look for technical issues e.g. traffic order, flaws in the NTO etc.

HCA
Neil B
Reading your first contact with them (and for me that was clearly a challenge not an enquiry) it looks like a red rag to a bull. I'm not in the least surprised they responded as they did.

What I mean is, at no point have you claimed there was no contravention (and neither have you here). It reads to me more like a confession with a caveat challenging them to 'prove it'.
I can't think of anything more likely to make them dig their heels in.

HCA has given you the answer to 'can they prove it' -- yes.

It's all very well sending stuff that might make them trip up somewhere in the process (generally, in all cases) but at least have a case to start with!

Jumping forward to the ultimate stage of resolution -- and ALL exchanges of correspondence appear in front of an Adjudicator. I just can't help imagining the scenario. Adjudicators are human and first thing they read is that first challenge, have instant natural suspicion and ask you awkward questions. e.g. 'Did you move the vehicle between times?' (we don't know - you haven't said).
If you were to actually ask for the case to be heard on the basis 'yes but can they prove it' I dread to imagine an Adjudicator's reaction.
Despite all the procedural and technical matters we often use in appeal, for me, there is always the real life background of circumstances and events playing a part in getting Adjudicators on-side.
Presenting as you have so far would, IMO, fall flat on your face.

It's just an opinion, others will no doubt flame me dry.gif

---
The only thing I'm seeing is a typical - will not reply to further correspondence - with an interesting addition. They don't say you can't send some - but if you d -- it will ONLY be considered IF you also make a formal representation to a NtO.

This is not at all the correct process the law prescribes as far as I am aware and others may be able to make something of it.
Paul_uk74
Well thank you all for your responses with help and advice.

I am in two minds whether to just pay up.

Anyway, I received a reply to my second email and will share it on here for you to read.

My second email stated the following,

"Thank you for your reply.

I am however disappointed in your response and feel it is a "pro forma" reply that you have inputted the relevant times as you have totally ignored my request to see copies of the CEO's pocket notes. I have however viewed the digital images using the link you provided so thank you kindly for that. But they still do not assist.

I have copied my original response below for you to re-read.

"I received a PCN by CEO ***** on 03/01/12 at 1248 hours, with the above reference number.

The PCN,s observation times are from 0837 to 1248 hours. I was parked in one of two free bays and the signage states that I can park Mon - Sat 8am - 6pm for 4 hours and no return within 2 hours.

I believe that the observation times do not constitute evidence to prove the alleged contravention.

I therefore respectfully request a true, unedited and unredacted copy of the CEOs pocket notes and digital images and any other contemporaneous, unedited and unredacted documents in relation to my vehicle and alleged contravention please."

I would like to point out that firstly my original last letter was not a formal appeal but was clearly just a request for information, not only have you wrongly treated my request as an appeal but you have not supplied the information requested either. So I am now writing to advise that my informal appeal is that the contravention did not occur and the Council have not shown evidence to prove that the vehicle remained in the same place for over 4 hours. That was the reason for my initial request for the CEO's contemporaneous notes and in addition could you supply a copy of the case progress report.

I am only highlighting that there is currently no evidence in the PCN to suggest that I did not move the vehicle and return 2 hours later. If that can not be proved then there is no evidence to prove the alleged contravention.

I look forward to your response.

Kindest regards"


Their reply,

"Thank you for your further email dated 12/01/2012 in connection with the issue of the above-mentioned Penalty Charge Notice.

I have noted your comments requesting a copy of the Civil Enforcement Officers pocket notes. Please be advised this will have to be requested as Freedom of Information request. Please forward any requests for this information to the address provided below:

Performance and Support
Environment and Culture
PO Box 2122
House of Sport
300 Broad Street
B1 1TZ

I hope the information provided has been of assistance to you.

I would advise you that careful consideration was given to your initial email, which was received on the 04/01/2012, and you were informed of the reasons why your objection had been rejected. As you have now sent a further letter on this matter, I explain below the procedure to be followed.

If you choose not to send the discounted payment in response to this letter, but wish to challenge the matter further and you are the registered keeper of the vehicle, please wait until the formal Notice to Owner is sent to you. This letter offers the opportunity to make a formal representation against the Penalty Charge Notice. Legislation requires the Council to send a formal Notice to Owner to the registered keeper of the vehicle if payment is not made in relation to the Penalty Charge Notice. If you are not the keeper, formal representations may still be made on your behalf by contacting the registered keeper of the vehicle.

For more information, you may also go to www.patrol-uk.infohttp://www.patrol-uk.info. Patrol provides information about parking regulations and enforcement in councils that enforce Parking and Traffic Regulations outside London. It is aimed at drivers and vehicle owners who use their vehicles in one of the council areas in England (outside London) and Wales where parking regulations are enforced under the civil enforcement scheme.

In accordance with Birmingham City Council's Discretion Policy, each case is judged on its own merits, taking into account the exceptionality of the circumstances. The decision to enforce this case has therefore been made in accordance with this policy which can be viewed on www.birmingham.gov.uk/pcnhttp://www.birmingham.gov.uk/pcn.

You may still take advantage of the reduced charge of £25.00 if payment for the Penalty Charge Notice is received by the 08/02/2012, BUT the discounted rate is not available after this date. If payment is not received within this time, the full charge of £50.00 will be due.

If you would like to make payment by credit or debit card, please telephone 0845 260 2700, (calls to this number will be free of charge for BT customers and for non-BT customers calls will be charged at the local rate. Calls from mobiles will vary), this service is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, or pay on-line www.birmingham.gov.uk/PCNhttp://www.birmingham.gov.uk/PCN. Please have the Penalty Charge Notice number and your credit card details available.

Alternatively, cheques or Postal Orders should be made payable to 'Birmingham City Council (Highways)' and forwarded to Birmingham City Council, Environment & Culture Directorate PO Box 77 Birmingham B4 7WA, quoting the Penalty Charge Notice number.

Please Note: It is not possible to enter into any further correspondence until a formal representation is received in response to the Notice to Owner. Any additional correspondence received from you prior to the Notice to Owner being issued will therefore not receive a reply but will be considered should any formal representation be received in response to the Notice to Owner.

The Traffic Management Act 2004 sets out the following statutory grounds on which representations may be made:

1. The alleged contravention did not occur.
2. I was never the owner of the vehicle in question/ or
I had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the alleged contravention occurred/ or
I became its owner after the date on which the alleged contravention occurred.
3. The vehicle had been permitted to remain at rest in the place in question by a person who was in control of the vehicle without the consent of the owner.
4. We are a vehicle-hire firm and the vehicle was on hire under a hiring agreement and the hirer had signed a statement acknowledging liability for any PCN issued during the hiring period.
5. The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.
6. There has been a procedural impropriety by the enforcement authority
7. The Order which is alleged to have been contravened in relation to the vehicle concerned is invalid.
8. This Notice should not have been served because the penalty charge had already been paid:
(i) in full; or
(ii) at the discounted rate set in accordance with Schedule 9 to the Traffic Management Act 2004 Act and within the time specified in paragraph 1(h) of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007.
9. If there are any other reasons why you consider the Council should cancel the penalty charge notice and refund any sum already paid.

If you make a representation and it is accepted, the Penalty Charge Notice will be withdrawn. If not, the full amount of £50.00 will become due, unless you wish to make an appeal. Full details will be given to you of the appeals procedure, which allows a case to be heard by an independent adjudicator at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The Traffic Penalty Tribunal is an independent tribunal service where impartial lawyers consider appeals by motorists.


Yours sincerely"


I still have some time before I have to pay up so I will write to the above department asking for the CEO notes.

I will keep this thread updated to the end smile.gif

Thanks again folks

Paul.
Exiled Yorkshireman
FoIA request for CEO's notes?
Paul_uk74
I thought that was an odd response too. I am thinking that they are just being awkward now because I made a phone to that department and I was told I was calling the wrong building.

Maybe they have no supporting evidence and are trying to make it seem harder for me so that I just give in and pay up? who knows!!

Paul.
Neil B
QUOTE (Paul_uk74 @ Wed, 18 Jan 2012 - 19:16) *
If you are not the keeper, formal representations may still be made on your behalf by contacting the registered keeper of the vehicle.


Eh??

- and on the CEO notes matter - FOI is not just bollox, it's obstructive.

Read 'Chase' for bedtime. http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.g...ocs/Chase21.pdf

- since I'm sitting here with it open, lol.
hcandersen
IMO press on.

The structure of the council's letter implies that it doesn't have a fundamental understanding of the regs and procedure as some of their references are incorrect. This suggests that they'll slip up later in the process.

But it's the CEOs notes that interests me. IMO, you should write two letters:
1. To the address given stating that parking services or whoever have advised you to request the CEO's notes for PCN ****** and would they please send these to you as a matter of urgency as your discount payment period expires on ******;
2. To the eeejit who wrote to you. State that you object to the council's obstruction in this matter; you've made a straightforward request for information which the council holds (it has to hold it otherwise it has no evidence and the PCN should not have been served); the council has deliberately failed to comply with section 1 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and you will bring this to the attention of the adjudicator should this be necessary.

Given that the whole case at his point rests on the CEO's notes, I would expect that even if you lost at adj the adj would make a recommendation to the council to accept payment at the discount because it deliberately failed to provide evidence that it held in a timely manner which would have allowed you to pay at the discount rate.


HCA
Paul_uk74
QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 18 Jan 2012 - 23:50) *
QUOTE (Paul_uk74 @ Wed, 18 Jan 2012 - 19:16) *
If you are not the keeper, formal representations may still be made on your behalf by contacting the registered keeper of the vehicle.


Eh??

- and on the CEO notes matter - FOI is not just bollox, it's obstructive.

Read 'Chase' for bedtime. http://keycases.parkingandtrafficappeals.g...ocs/Chase21.pdf

- since I'm sitting here with it open, lol.


Interesting case read, thankyou for that smile.gif

My thoughts are the same as yours regarding the FOI act.

What are they playing at?

Paul.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 19 Jan 2012 - 08:18) *
IMO press on.

The structure of the council's letter implies that it doesn't have a fundamental understanding of the regs and procedure as some of their references are incorrect. This suggests that they'll slip up later in the process.

But it's the CEOs notes that interests me. IMO, you should write two letters:
1. To the address given stating that parking services or whoever have advised you to request the CEO's notes for PCN ****** and would they please send these to you as a matter of urgency as your discount payment period expires on ******;
2. To the eeejit who wrote to you. State that you object to the council's obstruction in this matter; you've made a straightforward request for information which the council holds (it has to hold it otherwise it has no evidence and the PCN should not have been served); the council has deliberately failed to comply with section 1 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and you will bring this to the attention of the adjudicator should this be necessary.

Given that the whole case at his point rests on the CEO's notes, I would expect that even if you lost at adj the adj would make a recommendation to the council to accept payment at the discount because it deliberately failed to provide evidence that it held in a timely manner which would have allowed you to pay at the discount rate.


HCA



HCA,

I have again taken your wise words of advice and just fired of a reply to the eeejit as you so put it.

I have also typed a letter to the address above requesting the CEO notes as per your wording above.

Thanks again for your advice folks.

Do you wish to see my further email and letter on here?


Paul.
Paul_uk74
Hi all,

I have received a reply to my last letter as follows.

"Thank you for your further email dated 19/01/2012 concerning the Penalty
Charge Notice detailed above.

Please accept my apologies with regard to our previous correspondence sent
to you dated 11/01/2012 and 18/01/2012. I have reviewed these letters
which do not provide a satisfactory response in relation to the points you
raised in your initial email dated 04/01/2012 and therefore, in reply to
your email I would advise the following.

The Penalty Charge Notice was issued to your vehicle as it was parked on
______________________ for a time exceeding the
maximum period of 4 hours in a restricted parking area. These restrictions
were clearly shown in accordance with the Road Traffic legislation.

I would explain that the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) first observed
your vehicle at 8:37am, recorded the kerbside tyre valve positions, (front
valve-1, rear valve 4) and entered your vehicle registration and other
relevant details into the handheld computer. The CEO then returned at 12:48
and recorded that the kerbside tyre valve positions were in the same
positions (front valve-1, rear valve 4) which indicated that the vehicle
had not been moved and therefore, as the 4 hour limit had elapsed, he was
correct to issue the Notice.

Just to clarify, the tyre valve positions are recorded as the time on a
clock. Therefore, in this instance on both observations your front valve
was positioned at 1 o'clock.

With regard to your request for the CEO's pocket notes and digital images,
I note that you have viewed the Officers photographs online; however I
enclose a copy of these for your perusal. Please also find enclosed a copy
of the CEO's memo and his electronic notes, which are the details the CEO
enters into his handheld computer in replace of a pocket note book.

I regret therefore, that as your vehicle was parked in contravention, I am
unable to withdraw the Penalty Charge Notice and I must request payment in
settlement of the matter.


In accordance with Birmingham City Council's Discretion Policy, each case
is judged on its own merits, taking into account the exceptionality of the
circumstances. The decision to enforce this case has therefore been made
in accordance with this policy which can be viewed on
www.birmingham.gov.uk/pcn.

You may still take advantage of the reduced charge of £25.00 if payment for
the Penalty Charge Notice is received by the 23/02/2012, BUT the discounted
rate is not available after this date and the full charge of £50.00 will be
due if payment is not received in time.

If you would like to make payment by credit or debit card, please telephone
0845 260 2700, (calls to this number will be free of charge for BT
customers and for non-BT customers calls will be charged at the local rate.
Calls from mobiles will vary), this service is available 24 hours a day, 7
days a week, or pay on-line www.birmingham.gov.uk/PCN. Please have the
Penalty Charge Notice number and your credit card details available.

Alternatively, cheques or Postal Orders should be made payable to
'Birmingham City Council (Highways)' and forwarded to Birmingham City
Council, Environment & Culture Directorate PO Box 77 Birmingham B4 7WA,
quoting the Penalty Charge Notice number.

If you choose not to send payment in response to this letter, but wish to
challenge the matter further and you are the registered keeper of the
vehicle, please wait until the formal Notice to Owner is sent to you. This
letter offers the opportunity to make a formal representation against the
Penalty Charge Notice. Legislation requires the Council to send a formal
Notice to Owner to the registered keeper of the vehicle if payment is not
made in relation to the Penalty Charge Notice. If you are not the keeper,
formal representations may still be made on your behalf by contacting the
registered keeper of the vehicle.

Please Note: It is not possible to enter into any further correspondence
until a formal representation is received in response to the Notice to
Owner. Any additional correspondence received from you prior to the Notice
to Owner being issued will therefore not receive a reply but will be
considered should any formal representation be received in response to the
Notice to Owner."


As for the CEO notes, they are attached as images below. I have also had paper copies of the photos but you have seen them above.





The CEO notes are dated 03/01/2012 17:26 hours.

Am I to presume that the first obs are from the first time at 08:37 hours as it does not state a time?

Shall I just pay up?

Regards

Paul.
bama
lets see the pics they sent.

Paul_uk74

Here are the photos, sorry for the bad quality, I took photos with my phone.










Regards
Paul.
Paul_uk74
Is anyone able to advise me regarding this matter please?

I only have until the 23rd to pay up smile.gif
Bogsy
That report is not the CEO's notes from any notebook. It is simply a report run from the PCN processing system. It may reflect what the CEO inputted into their handheld computer but it does not confirm the valve positions at the time of first observation or even the time of first obs. It seems to me that they are struggling to produce evidence of the initial obs time and valve positions. If they had it I'm sure they would have rubbed your face in it by now.

I love the fact you were parked in Ltd "Weight"ing. Seems you can get a PCN for being over a certain weight these days. Don't laugh, it will probably happen sooner or later.
Paul_uk74
QUOTE (Bogsy @ Fri, 17 Feb 2012 - 00:39) *
That report is not the CEO's notes from any notebook. It is simply a report run from the PCN processing system. It may reflect what the CEO inputted into their handheld computer but it does not confirm the valve positions at the time of first observation or even the time of first obs. It seems to me that they are struggling to produce evidence of the initial obs time and valve positions. If they had it I'm sure they would have rubbed your face in it by now.

I love the fact you were parked in Ltd "Weight"ing. Seems you can get a PCN for being over a certain weight these days. Don't laugh, it will probably happen sooner or later.


Thanks for your reply Bogsy.

It states in the response email that the handheld is where the CEO records his notes in replace of a PNB. I also agree with you in that there is no confirmation of times that the CEO recorded the 1ST obs valve positions.

The CEO's grammer/ spelling is superb isnt it smile.gif

It would be really unfair if they suddenly produce evidence after I receive the NTO. As I have requested all evidence since my first email.

So do you suggest that I wait for the NTO

Regards
Paul
Paul_uk74
Any other members on here have any advice of whether I should pay or not please?

I have 3 days before I lose the chance of a 50% discount.

Regards
Paul
marvin28
QUOTE (Paul_uk74 @ Mon, 20 Feb 2012 - 23:39) *
Any other members on here have any advice of whether I should pay or not please?


What do you think are your grounds for appeal?
hcandersen
Let me ask you a question?

Can you recall precisely when you parked on that day?

When I state precisely, I mean just that. I don't mean could you deduce/infer an approximate time, but can you be absolutely precise about the time?

If not, then you don't know when you parked. There's no debate that you were there on the second obs, but so what, this is not what you're challenging.

You're not saying that you weren't in that location, you clearly were. But we're talking about 11 minutes which is hardly a long period.

IMO, unless you know precisely when you parked then you should make formal reps when you receive the NTO on the basis that the contravention did not occur (in this context neither you nor the council can evidence that it occurred, you because of your memory, the council because of its inability/reluctance/coyness in producing evidence which you've now requested twice, or is it 3 times?)

It's your money and if you know that you parked before 8.49 then you might want to consider paying. But as it stands, the council has not produced evidence that you were. IMO, your case is different from many others we see where councils either don't respond to requests for evidence or reply saying that it will be provided later in the process. But here, the council has replied, twice, and on neither occasion has it provided the evidence.

Why?

HCA
Paul_uk74
I am challenging on the basis that they have not provided evidence with times that the first obs and tyre valves were recorded at 08:37 hours.

I "could" have returned to my car at 0900 hours left and then returned at 1100 hours to the same spot.

The latest response from the council stated that the electronic hand held device is in place of a PNB.

The Memo that the CEO compiled does not show times and the latest response states that the memo is the CEO's notes.

Will a print out off the hand held show more information?.. If it does then why have they not disclosed that to me? I asked for any other written documents in relation to my vehicle.

Would it not be frowned upon by the adjudicator if they suddenly produced further evidence that would have made me pay up earlier?

I might just pay up tomorrow... I just hate the thought that the numpty has got away with doing his job incorrectly.

Regards
Paul

will it only cost a maximum of £50 if I lose if I dont pay the discounted £25?

paul.
Paul_uk74
Here is my letter that I was asked to send requesting the evidence and the CEO Memo is what I received in response.

To whom it may concern,

I am writing to you as I have been advised by ------------- at Birmingham City Council parking that I have to request CEO notes in relation to the above PCN under the Freedom of Information Act and that I have to do that via the address above.

Can you assist in my request and if so can you send them to me as a matter of urgency as my discount period expires on 8th February 2012.

I would like to request under Part 1.1 of the FOI act true, unedited and unredacted copies of the CEO’s contemporaneous notes in relation to my vehicle and above PCN, and any other documentation digital or otherwise. Could you also supply a copy of the case progress report.

I can also confirm that vehicle index --------- belongs to me and is registered to the address above.

I have provided my email address above to speed things up.

Kindest Regards


As you can see I have clearly requested any other documentation digital or otherwise.

Paul
Paul_uk74
Im going to pay up.

sad.gif

Thanks for the help advice along the way but I think they are going to stitch me up out of £50 as soon as I appeal.

Regards
Paul
Paul_uk74
Hi folks,

I actually decided not to pay this FPN back towards the end of February 2012 and had not received anything from the council until 02/06/2012.

I was quite shocked that it has taken so long for them to send the NTO to me.

Anyway here is a scan of all the pages that I have received. -:









The date they sent the NTO to me was 30th May 2012.

I did also send a further email to the council on 22/02/2012 in response to the case report. I never had a reply from the council after this email.

Dear Miss ****,

Thank you so much for your reply and finally someone willing to assist me regarding this matter.

I am writing back to you as I recently received the documents that you
sent to me by post. On opening the letter from you I have a series of
digital images printed on 2 sheets of A4 paper both sides. I have also
the letter as below and 2 A4 pages of the Case report which is the Case
memo/ CEO notes as you stated below.

I have read the Memo and I have noticed that it does not include
supporting times of the alleged contravention.

What it does show me is that the Memo was created on 02/02/2012 which is
almost 1 month after the alleged contravention, it then shows me that
the memo has a date and a time 03/01/2012 - 17:26 hours.

I can see valve positions 1 and 4 and then a little lower "OVERSTAY ON
LTD WEIGHT" Should I presume the CEO means limited wait?

On the second sheet of the case report I see a second obs with the valve
positions at the same.

I have already made 3 reasonable requests and the third as instructed by
********** writing to the address on Broad street requesting the
information under the FOI Act.

I am truly grateful for the documents that you have provided me but
again how can the Council expect me to make an informed decision to pay
at the discounted rate based on the evidence that you have sent to me?

Regards

_________________________________________________________________

I am going to respond to the NTO but am looking for a little guidance on how I should handle this please?

Regards
Paul.
SchoolRunMum
Well you are in for the £50 or nothing now so you may as well appeal all the way. Paying up sooner would achieve nothing as you pay £50 and no more, even if you lose at adjudication.

I can see the FOI request you were told to send (they were wrong as it's not a FOI matter at all). Did you get the info in full?

I didn't see your actual appeal against the PCN. Did you actually send one or was the misinformation about an FOI request enough to divert you from actually appealing as well?
Paul_uk74
Hi SRM,

I wont be paying anything if I can help it.

I know they were wrong about the FOI request but I played their game and did what they told me. Everything that I have had has been scanned onto this thread.

I only got the NTO the other day after so long so I didnt appeal just yet.

They ignored my last email which is above.
SchoolRunMum
I would draft what you now want to say then, as your formal appeal, and post it here for advice & comments.

Include the fact that their wrong contention that you 'have to' use FOI to request simple evidence relating to a PCN which is already in the public domain, has meant that your right to have made an informal appeal were fettered. Such that you believed the case was on hold pending the information you have tried 3 times to obtain, then you finally got some information sent and then an NTO so soon afterwards that you never felt you had a chance to look at the evidence and informally appeal. State that this is a procedural imropriety and that such simple requests for evidence should have been provided by return, months ago.

Then add and reiterate whatever circs you wish to state about whether the contravention occurred (including any signs or PCN issues, etc.). Did you get the Traffic Order?
Paul_uk74
The following is what I have drafted to send to the council after receiving an NTO.

"I am writing to you in relation to receiving a PCN and then a NTO.

I wish to state that I sent numerous emails to the council requesting supporting evidence to support the CEO’s decision to issue me with the PCN but despite 4 emails I received nothing supportive and was left with no alternative but to not pay the discounted rate of £25.

My first email I feel was ignored so I responded re asking and was replied to by ********.

I was asked by ********** in response to my email request to apply for the CEO’s notes etc by writing to The House of Sport on Broad Street requesting the required information under the Freedom of Information Act.

I did write a letter to the address as advised by ******* and I sent it recorded with reference ***********. It was signed for by ****** on 23/01/2012 @ 07:25 hours.

I eventually received photos in the post along with a case report. I carefully looked at the case report and I felt that it was not supportive so I requested further evidence via email which was ignored.

I did not receive any further correspondence from the council until receiving the NTO in the post on 02/06/2012. I honestly believed that the case was on hold since sending my fourth email on 22/02/2012 pending the information requested in that email which has obviously been ignored, evidenced by receiving the NTO.

I have made 4 very reasonable requests for information and evidence to support the council’s decision to issue me with a PCN. I have to date not received anything supportive of the contravention and I have therefore been left with no alternative but to not pay the penalty charge at the discounted rate. I don’t think I am or have been unreasonable unlike the council.
1. I was initially ignored and fobbed off when I asked for information to support the PCN. (First Email)
2. I was then asked to apply for the information by writing to The House of Sport making a request for the information under the Freedom of Information act. (Second Email)
3. I finally receive a case report which is clearly not supporting evidence. (Third Email)
4. My last email requesting information was ignored and I received an NTO some 3 months later. (Fourth Email)

How can I be expected to make an informed decision to pay at the discounted rate when I have still not seen any supporting evidence? I am very annoyed that my last email was ignored which has made the discounted rate expire. I have been treated unfairly and I am disgusted that Birmingham City Council Parking Section has treated me and this matter in such a negative manner.

The alleged contravention did not occur as I was not parked for longer than permitted and the CEO has made a mistake with his times.

I believe that the council has deliberately failed to send me supporting evidence because it has been discovered that the CEO made a mistake.

Finally, if I was shown supporting evidence as requested I would have paid immediately at the discounted rate accepting that I was in contravention.

Yours truly,"

SRM, what is a traffic order?

Regards
Paul
Incandescent
Well, now you will get the opportunity to test your and their evidence at adjudication, as the full amount is now payable. As you dispute the council evidence, this is the only place you can test it under the legal process defined in the CPE legislation.
SchoolRunMum
''SRM, what is a traffic order? ''

A Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) - or sometimes called a Traffic Order on here - is a legal order, which allows an Authority to regulate the speed, movement and parking of vehicles. So as regards parking issues, it's the legal document that defines the signs and lines, if you like. You cannot contravene lines/signs, you can only contravene an Order - and the point of checking the Order is to see if it is 'singing from the same hymn sheet' as the signage and creates the contravention.

So for instance, people on here have won appeals when they have found the Traffic Order hasn't been updated with a change, or where the Order says something different than the signs.

I would include a request for a copy to be sent with their reply if they reject your formal appeal, so that you can 'make an informed decision' once you have studied the Order and all the other info you have been waiting for.

And finally I would lose the last 2 lines:

''I believe that the council has deliberately failed to send me supporting evidence because it has been discovered that the CEO made a mistake.

Finally, if I was shown supporting evidence as requested I would have paid immediately at the discounted rate accepting that I was in contravention.''


The top one is accusatory, probably not the case and won't help them feel they want to cancel this for you! And the second one, why say you would have paid? You are now appealing all or nothing and you don't want to be saying you 'would have paid the reduced penalty' IMHO. You want to win and pay nothing now.
Paul_uk74
Thanls for the reply.

I shall delete those last 2 sentences as advised by SRM, Is the rest ok?

Regards
Paul.
SchoolRunMum
I reckon so as long as you ask for the Traffic Order (and did you ever get all photos and the CEO's notes, was that part of the 'case report'?). If not then finish by stating what you need to make an informed decision and making is clear that you 'require' the info if they should reject your appeal.
Paul_uk74
Hi people.

I have recieved a rejection notice today.

Still no supporting evidence received apart from what I had already received which is on this thread

What shall I do?

I will scan and upload it tomorrow.

I think the next stage is pay up or go to ajudication.

Regards
Paul
Incandescent
Well it seems to me the Council claim you were parked from 08.37 to 12.38, which takes you over the 4 hour limit by 11 minutes. So what have you got that refutes their times and their claim that your car did not move from the parking place within those times ? The adjudicator will weigh up the evidence, so yours has to be more "compelling" (a favourite word of adjudicators!!). This is the nub of the case. You can of course, go to adjudication on other matters as outlined in this thread. The council will have to then refute your argument in turn. The full PCN amount has been reached so its a no-brainer to go to adjudication, you have nothing to lose.
Paul_uk74
Thanks for the reply.

I actually have no supportive evidence other than my word that the CEO has made a mistake and the council have failed to provide me with supporting evidence despite my numerous requests.

Paul_uk74
Guys.

When I send off my appeal to adjudicator shall I refer to.

A. The alleged contravention did not occur.
And
C. There has been a procedural impropriety by the council?

A for obvious reasons.

C due to the council not sending me the requested information and for ignoring my final request before receiving the NTO?

Regards
Paul
SchoolRunMum
Yes, both sound reasonable.

Can we please see a pic of the rejection letter? It would help us to help you.
hcandersen
The NOR please.

HCA
Paul_uk74






SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Paul_uk74 @ Fri, 3 Aug 2012 - 21:57) *
Thanks for the reply.

I actually have no supportive evidence other than my word that the CEO has made a mistake and the council have failed to provide me with supporting evidence despite my numerous requests.





The Notice of Rejection tells you where to view the TRO so I would do so now, and get a copy of it. Otherwise you'd have to wait to see it in the Council's evidence pack before adjudication, along with the case notes with the valve positions 'presumably' written down as seen at 08.37am.

How do you know that you were not there when the CEO says he first saw the car? Can you recall times that you were elsewhere, show any receipts or can anyone corroborate your story that you were there later than 08.37? Think of anything which would help show your side of events.

In the meantime, register your appeal with the adjudicators and send it off with appropriate boxes ticked and stating 'full details to follow' which gives you time to look at the TRO first, and to draft your appeal wording with help from the experts on here.
Paul_uk74
Thanks for the reply.

Thee are no receipts that I can offer as evidence or anything else really.

There may have been CCTV but that's long overwritten now so it's just my word against his. I have a strong feeling I'm right though as the council have failed numerous times to provide me with supporting evidence.
If they do have something then they have saved it for adjudication.

I will register my case via the online method as it will be quicker than posting it. I cannot get to view the tro until Tuesday next week due to work. Will I be able to obtain a copy from them another way?

I do need help writing the appeal too please.


Paul
SchoolRunMum
Try emailing and asking for a PDF version of the TRO as it's a public document and if they have an emailable version they must supply it when asked.
Paul_uk74
When I get the tro. What am I looking for?

Will it have detailing regarding the street I was parked on?

Paul
SchoolRunMum
Yes it should.

When you get it you can put it in the repository here on pepipoo and then link it on this thread for the experts to take a look. But do look through the Order yourself first to pick out which pages you think apply to where you parked.
hcandersen
The TRO is complex - the principal order is dated 1995 and there have been many subsequent amendments. These all appear to be on the TPT web site (the TPT Traffic Order library where councils lodge their reference traffic orders) and so they are held electronically and the council should have no problem providing you with copies.

But as per SRM, register your appeal first.

HCA
Paul_uk74
I have registered my appeal online today.

I have already emailed asking for a copy but nothing as yet.

Paul
Paul_uk74
I have just had a look in the repository and have found a "Traffic Regulation Order, Birmingham City Council, (Parking Places and Controlled Parking Zone) (Birmingham) (Consolidation) Order 1995" PDF. As per Page 1 of the Notice of Rejection.

TRO Birmingham 1995

On opening the PDF I realised that approximately 6 months prior to me being issued the PCN the bay in which I was parked was free to park in. The street being GRAHAM STREET. In fact, the whole of GRAHAM STREET was free to park in until approximately APRIL, MAY 2011 when they installed ticket machines and converted the bay in which I was parked from 3 bays free parking to 2 bays with the restriction signed in the pictures.

It mentions most of the streets close to GRAHAM STREET but not GRAHAM STREET.

Does this help me in any way?

Paul.
Paul_uk74
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 12 Aug 2012 - 07:18) *
The TRO is complex - the principal order is dated 1995 and there have been many subsequent amendments. These all appear to be on the TPT web site (the TPT Traffic Order library where councils lodge their reference traffic orders) and so they are held electronically and the council should have no problem providing you with copies.

But as per SRM, register your appeal first.

HCA



HCA,

Thanks for your reply.

I have looked at the TPT Library and there is no ammended order listed for 2011 or 2012.

As mentioned earlier, the parking restrictions changed in the middle of 2011 for GRAHAM STREET. In fact, they changed the parking restrictions in a large area in and around the Jewellery quarter. Which there doesnt appear to be an ammended order listed for.

Paul

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