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cupra
Hi everyone, I am really in need of some advice on this!

I have received a summons dated 13-7-05 for a court hearing on 2-8-05 for failing to provide information as per sec172.

I am in a similar situation to this other thread http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=4842

I have never received the NIP they claim to have sent me and this summons is the first correspondance of any kind i have received.

The alleged offence took place on 23rd December 2004 and the first NIP was sent to my fleet manager on 4-1-05. The first NIP allegedly sent to me was dated 13-1-05. Are there any time limits here that I could use to my advantage? Its 6 months to the day since the NIP was alledged served to me and nearly 7 months since the alleged offence.

They admit in the evidence submitted that the NIP were only sent 1st class and not special/recorded. I live in a brand new estate and I do have a lot of post go missing. Packages often get mis-delivered as the estate does not yet appear on any maps/postcode searches. I think there was some mix up with the postcodes when the estate was opened although I can't prove that, its just what other residents have told me.

I also ceased to be the registered keeper of the vehicle less than a week after the alleged offence, could this have caused the mix up or be used to establish doubt?

The alleged offence is for 44mph in a 30 zone and they have included a photo which is of the rear of the car so doesn't identify the driver at all.

I have 6 points already and my license is essential to my job, so anything that seriously risks it is a big no!

Any advice is greatly appreciated, I'm prepared to go all the way to fight this one as I am not guilty of what they claim. I'd have been prepared to take 3 points and £60 but I'm not going to roll over and take a bigger hit for something I haven't done.

Many thanks
cupra
Realise my initial post was a bit 'wordy' here is some extra info

1. The offence was in England
2. Thames Valley Police
3. Offence - 23/12/2004
4. NIP (sent to company) - 30/12/2004
5. Date you received the NIP - Never did
6. Was the NIP addressed to you? First NIP to RK, never had one to me.
7. Sent by 1st class post
8. Company car, RK is company, fleet manager apparently nominated me.
9. Full UK License
10. Currently 6 points
11. Description of events - as above.


I guess that since I have a summons from the 'Bicester Gatso Court' that its to late to bother trying to persuade TVP/scamera partenership not to persue this.

Should I send a sworn affidavid saying that I never received the NIP with my not guilty plea and hope they drop the case? Or am I better just pleading not guilty and having my say in court?

Many thanks for any advice!
andy_foster
QUOTE (cupra)
I have never received either of the 2 NIPs they claim to have sent me and this summons is the first correspondance of any kind i have received.


What communication/information have you received from them?
My summons bundle (TVP, s.172) didn't mention any of the (many) reminder NIP/s.172 requests I was sent.

QUOTE (cupra)
The alleged offence took place on 23rd December 2004 and the first NIP was sent to my fleet manager on 4-1-05. The first NIP allegedly sent to me was dated 13-1-05. Are there any time limits here that I could use to my advantage? Its 6 months to the day since the first NIP was alledged served to me and nearly 7 months since the alleged offence.


No. The first NIP was (presumably) served within the 14 days, and you're not being done for speeding anyway.
Any s.172 offence would have been deemed to have been committed 28 days after your NIP/s.172 request was believed to have been served. They then had 6 months from the date of the alleged s.172 offence to lay an information for the summons.

QUOTE (cupra)
They admit in the evidence submitted that the NIPs were only sent 1st class and not special/recorded. I live in a brand new estate and I do have a lot of post go missing. Packages often get mis-delivered as the estate does not yet appear on any maps/postcode searches. I think there was some mix up with the postcodes when the estate was opened although I can't prove that, its just what other residents have told me.


Evidence of post going missing/being mis-delivered would be very helpful.
As it's TVP, you could possibly have a stronger defence if you had received the NIPs.  :roll:

QUOTE (cupra)
I also ceased to be the registered keeper of the vehicle less than a week after the alleged offence, could this have caused the mix up or be used to establish doubt?


If you were the RK, why did the first NIP go to your fleet manager?
When it was sent, you were apparently no longer the RK, but the DVLA don't usually update their records that quickly.

QUOTE (cupra)
The alleged offence is for 44mph in a 30 zone and they have included a photo which is of the rear of the car so doesn't identify the driver at all.

I have 6 points already and my license is essential to my job, so anything that seriously risks it is a big no!

Any advice is greatly appreciated, I'm prepared to go all the way to fight this one as I am not guilty of what they claim. I'd have been prepared to take 3 points and £60 but I'm not going to roll over and take a bigger hit for something I haven't done.


The penalty (if convicted) of failing to furnish, contrary to s.172(3) RTA 1988 is 3 points and a fine not exceeding level 3 (max £1000, usually ~£250-300).

It would seem that the prosecutor doesn't look at the case file until the morning of the actual trial, so I'd be surprised if any decision to drop it would be taken before then.
It probably wouldn't hurt to send a covering letter with the summons form. Your defence would seem to rely on your honesty and credability - so the standard advice of keeping your cards close to your chest could be counterproductive.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (cupra)
I do have a lot of post go missing. Packages often get mis-delivered as the estate does not yet appear on any maps/postcode searches. I think there was some mix up with the postcodes when the estate was opened although I can't prove that, its just what other residents have told me.

This is good stuff if you can back it up.
Since you are claiming that you didn't receive two NIP / S172s, I feel that you need other stuff. I suspect that sworn evidence, by yourself, on its own may not be sufficient.
cupra
Thanks for the replies

QUOTE (andy_foster)
What communication/information have you received from them?
My summons bundle (TVP, s.172) didn't mention any of the (many) reminder NIP/s.172 requests I was sent.


My summons bundle includes the following:

The summons itself including statement of facts and plea boxes to tick
Information for Court users
HMCS 'MAke sure you can pay your fine'
TVP Notice - Change in court procedings

And a stapled together bundle containing:
TVP Notice to Defendant and certification of service
Photo of car
NIP addressed to me dated 13.01.2005
S172 statement made by my fleet manager
NIP sent to company dated 30.12.2004
DVLA statement about reg no.
And a 'Your questions answered' page.

I scan any/all of the above if anyones interested.

QUOTE (andy_foster)
No. The first NIP was (presumably) served within the 14 days, and you're not being done for speeding anyway.
Any s.172 offence would have been deemed to have been committed 28 days after your NIP/s.172 request was believed to have been served. They then had 6 months from the date of the alleged s.172 offence to lay an information for the summons.


Well, they're cutting it pretty tight

QUOTE (andy_foster)
 
As it's TVP, you could possibly have a stronger defence if you had received the NIPs.  rolleyes.gif  


I'm not sure what you mean here?

QUOTE (andy_foster)
If you were the RK, why did the first NIP go to your fleet manager?
When it was sent, you were apparently no longer the RK, but the DVLA don't usually update their records that quickly.


Sorry my mistake in the first post, I was never the RK, I meant I received a new company car just days after the offence and ceased to be the driver of this one.

QUOTE (andy_foster)
It would seem that the prosecutor doesn't look at the case file until the morning of the actual trial, so I'd be surprised if any decision to drop it would be taken before then.
It probably wouldn't hurt to send a covering letter with the summons form. Your defence would seem to rely on your honesty and credability - so the standard advice of keeping your cards close to your chest could be counterproductive.


I think I will do that. I will draft a letter and post it before I send it.
cupra
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
This is good stuff if you can back it up.
Since you are claiming that you didn't receive two NIP / S172s, I feel that you need other stuff. I suspect that sworn evidence, by yourself, on its own may not be sufficient.


After reviewing the evidence there is only 1 NIP addressed to me, the other is to my company so I guess that makes my defence easier.

I could get a sworn statement from my housemates saying they've had post go missing too.... would that suffice?
andypandy
QUOTE
I could get a sworn statement from my housemates saying they've had post go missing too.... would that suffice?
This will help, if you are on good terms with your neighbours, ask them if they have had post go missing, and get letters from them backing you up.

QUOTE
andy_foster wrote:  

As it's TVP, you could possibly have a stronger defence if you had received the NIPs.    
 


I'm not sure what you mean here?


There were errors in the wording on the nips TVP had used in the recent past- I dont think it is of help to you.  Your best defence is to show the nip probably was never served due to being lost.
Insider
QUOTE
I could get a sworn statement from my housemates saying they've had post go missing too.... would that suffice?
No IMHO, if your neighbours and others on the estate have said that your post goes missing, then maybe you should see if you could get 3 or 4 Witness Statements from them  icon_idea.gif

Maybe the Postwatch site would be useful?

Postwatch PR regarding Dispatches 2005 programme

QUOTE
On 29th April 2004 Channel 4’s Dispatches showed serious flaws within Royal Mail.The public were shown poor management and untrained staff with no respect for the mail in their care. Royal Mail promised to put its house in order. It promised to introduce appropriate recruitment procedures and to stop sending untrained casual staff out alone on delivery rounds. Following a discussion with the programme makers Postwatch understands that customers watching tonight’s Dispatches will be disappointed to see that many of the irregularities exposed by the first programme are a continuing part of Royal Mail life. Again, Dispatches are able to show agency staff walking fresh into a delivery office and being told to sort a delivery round and then go out alone, without the aid of a map, to find the addresses to deliver to.


Misdelivered Post Research
chadders
Actual examples of non-delivery are even better. There was someone on here, who had examples from amazon / ebay.
cupra
Well its 4 months since the summons and my case is finally going to court today!
It will be nearly 11 months since the alledged offence and finally somebody is actually going to listen to my side of the story!!

I'm up in court later today, I'm pretty happy with the defence I've prepared. Just wanted to thank people for their advice on this thread and the others like it that I've enjoyed reading.
Wish me luck!!
The Rookie
GOOD LUCK......

Simon
cupra
Was found not guilty by Bicester Magistrates court on Wednesday. Pleased with the outcome obviously.
I had loads of material prepared about how much mail the Post Office loses every week and other stuff but I didn't get the chance to say most of it!

I would appreciate people's opinions on the following:

I seriously objected to one point in the proceedings. In setting out the case for the prosecution, reference was made to a 'reminder' letter that was sent. I asked if there was a copy of this letter or a statement from someone who supposedly sent it. There was none. There was no evidence of any kind to support the existence of this letter, other than one of the magistrates saying 'Oh yes, they always send a reminder'
I objected saying there was no evidence presented to the court that this letter even existed let alone had been posted. They didn't really respond that and just continued on to the next point.

Reference was again made to this reminder letter by the magistrate in his summing up at the end. Meaning he accepted that it must have been sent!

I was furious but since he ended his little speech with the words 'I therefore find you not guilty' I didn't want to kick up a fuss!!

Cheers everyone
Chris
cjm99
QUOTE
I asked if there was a copy of this letter or a statement from someone who supposedly sent it. There was none.



Great result.

Yes, the magistrates are idiots. Yes, the Clerks are marginally better.

For future reference. You object and challenge the prosecutor to tell you "how do you intend to lead it?" You, having listened to mumbling instruct the Clerk to advise the magistrates to totally ignore the prosecutors assertions.
cupra
QUOTE
Great result.
Thanks!

QUOTE
For future reference. You object and challenge the prosecutor to tell you "how do you intend to lead it?" You, having listened to mumbling instruct the Clerk to advise the magistrates to totally ignore the prosecutors assertions.


Didn't realise I had to (or was even allowed to!) instruct the clerk to do that. I guess I should have.

Cheers
cjm99
You are correct that you have no authority to 'instruct' the Clerk.

But, always be assertive in these situations, it forces the Clerks to make a clear comment and stops the magistrates from following the prosecutor like sheep. Also, when you make your 'submission of no case to answer'. It is a point you must remind the 'tribunal of fact' of, as they have not had whatever the evidence was  placed before them.
rooster_uk
Well done....Great Result...

I hope you have claimed for your out of pocket expenses?

smile.gif  :)  :)
cupra
QUOTE (rooster_uk)
Well done....Great Result...

I hope you have claimed for your out of pocket expenses?

smile.gif  smile.gif  smile.gif


Thanks! I didn't really have any expenses to claim as I don't pay for fuel and hadn't taken time off or anything..... I just wanted to get out of there!
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