Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: NIP against french Driver
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Ocavaliere
I have lived in the UK since 1992 and hold a European Driving Licence passed in France in 1987.
I was caught speeding at 89.25mph on the M6 on the 22/5/05 and received today by post my NIP.
I am invited to go to court in Kendal in August but what suprised me is that the Police Officer stipulated that this offence should have been dealt with by way of fixed penalty but was not because I had a french licence.
Surely, this is not fair. My Licence has a number and could be easily stored at DVLA. Why should I be discriminated because I have to go to court ? If I plead guilty, I will occure £ 35.00 court cost, then posibly a fine above what it should have been £ 60.....
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
I was caught speeding at 89.25mph on the M6 on the 22/5/05 and received today by post my NIP.

I assume that you mean a summons and not a NIP?
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
I am invited to go to court in Kendal in August but what suprised me is that the Police Officer <...>

I assume by this, that you mean that you were stopped at the time?
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
stipulated that this offence should have been dealt with by way of fixed penalty but was not because I had a french licence.

That is correct.
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
Surely, this is not fair. My Licence has a number and could be easily stored at DVLA. Why should I be discriminated because I have to go to court ?

I believe that the U.K. government are in hot water with the EU over this at the moment.
In particular, because non-resident EU licence holders are often arrested until they can appear in court.
As I understand it, the U.K. government intend to introduce a system whereby non resident EU drivers can pay the policeman who stops them, but that is not in place yet.
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
If I plead guilty, I will occure £ 35.00 court cost, then posibly a fine above what it should have been £ 60.....

If you plead gulity, you should make that submission to the magistrates prior to sentence.
Ocavaliere
Jeffrey, sorry for spasm and thanks for replying.
here are my comments

Ocavaliere wrote:
I was caught speeding at 89.25mph on the M6 on the 22/5/05 and received today by post my NIP.

I assume that you mean a summons and not a NIP?

icon_arrow.gif Correct, I received a summons

Ocavaliere wrote:
I am invited to go to court in Kendal in August but what suprised me is that the Police Officer <...>  

I assume by this, that you mean that you were stopped at the time?

icon_arrow.gif Correct, I was stopped by a Police Officer

Ocavaliere wrote:
stipulated that this offence should have been dealt with by way of fixed penalty but was not because I had a french licence.

That is correct.

Ocavaliere wrote:
Surely, this is not fair. My Licence has a number and could be easily stored at DVLA. Why should I be discriminated because I have to go to court ?



I believe that the U.K. government are in hot water with the EU over this at the moment.
In particular, because non-resident EU licence holders are often arrested until they can appear in court.
As I understand it, the U.K. government intend to introduce a system whereby non resident EU drivers can pay the policeman who stops them, but that is not in place yet.
Ocavaliere wrote:
If I plead guilty, I will occure £ 35.00 court cost, then posibly a fine above what it should have been £ 60.....

If you plead gulity, you should make that submission to the magistrates prior to sentence.

icon_arrow.gif What do you mean by making a submission ?
I am actually, British Resident as I live in Wigan but I know that I do not have to change my French EU Driving Licence to full UK Driving Licence.
This document is perfectly valid and I am insured accordingly.

What do you think I should do, ask for £ 60.00 fine and no cost ?
What about the 3 points if DVLA cant take it off my EU licence ?
Ocavaliere
jeffrey ,

confusion> I am french but residing in the United Kingdom ( wigan) ( sorry !)

Ollie
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
What do you think I should do, ask for £ 60.00 fine and no cost?

If you intend to plead guilty, you should return the paperwork as soon as possible, saying so.
You should submit,
1) That you would like credit for an early guilty plea (20% off, IIRC), and
2) Just say what you told us previously,
i.e. that the policeman at the time said that it would have been dealt with by a fixed penalty, had you not had a French licence.
In any case, you understand that to be the normal procedure for that speed.
Accordingly, you would ask the court to bear that in mind when considering the penalty, and, for the same reasons, to consider not awarding costs as the neccessity for a court hearing was not your fault, but that of the system.
They will probably fine you more than the £60, because they can't give you the points too, but you never know.
QUOTE (Ocavaliere)
What about the 3 points if DVLA cant take it off my EU licence?

The DVLA will create a 'ghost' licence in your name.
Should you ever apply for a U.K. licence, it will come with these shiny new points on it (assuming that they are still current).
chadders
I thought if you were resident after 'x' years, you had to apply for a full UK driving licence?
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (chadders)
I thought if you were resident after 'x' years, you had to apply for a full UK driving licence?

AFAIK, that only applies to non EU licences (freedom of movement, etc.).
There's also an upper age limit on the EU licence exemption, but it's round about 62, i.e. three years before even a U.K. licence holder has to renew every three years.
Ocavaliere
Jeffrey,

Actually, my french driving licence states PERMANENT ( or unlimited in time ) there is no expiring date like on a UK Licence which expired when you reach 70 years old.( Obviously, you can keep it if you pass  a medical I understand ).

Please find hereafter my plea:
I would appreciate your comment on this one, it is pretty much in line with what you told me yesterday :

1) The Offence

I wish to plead guilty to the offence of speeding as I have no tangeable and valid mitigating circumstances to offer to the court for my action on the day.
By the same, I would like to offer my sinceres apologies for exceeding the speed limit with the hope that the court will take into consideration any credit for an early guilty plea.

2) The Penalty

On reading of the Police Officer statement,  I understand that this offence would have been dealt with by a fixed penalty, had I not had a French/European licence.
In any case, I understand that the normal fixed penalty for that speed is usually a £ 60.00 fine and 3 points.
I would ask the Court to bear in mind the above mentioned when considering the penalty, and, for the same reasons, to consider not awarding costs as the neccessity for a court hearing was not my fault, but that of the system.
Whilst I understand and appreciate that the UK Goverment, following a EU directive, is making every effort to remedy the problem of issuing points for EU Licence Holders residing in the United Kingdom, I would like to ask to be treated fairly and not been discriminated with a hefty fine as a result of the fact that points cannot be presently issued on my French / European licence.
Barking Mad
Salût Ollie et bienvenue!

Pardon, mais je vous demanderais "Où achète-on un permis-de-conduire français?"????

In English (for the others - and getting the accents in is complicated):

D'you mind if I ask you, Ollie, where you can get a French driver's licence from?


It just strikes me that having a French licence (or exchanging our British ones) stops all this points malarky dead in the water  :wink:
firefly
Vous pouvez obtenir un permis français de France.
chadders
laugh.gif That looked really impressive until the translation - um... Sweden? Portugal? oh, France rolleyes.gif
Ocavaliere
If you live in France, you can transfer you can swap your UK licence for a french one but if you have points, there will  be transfered too ...!
In my case, you can see that perharps, it might not be a good idea to have a French licence and live in the UK because you end being targeted and victimised on the principle of being able to get away scotch free.
Well, if you live in the UK, I cant see this possible but I doubt I will be able to convince the Magistrate.
One of my argument is that on the police officer statement, it admit that he would have given me a fixed penalty if it was not for the fact that I had a french licence and this by itself is discrimination.
No one else in the UK in similar circumstance will have ended in court, having to fill a statement of earnings, travel 70 miles to a court and waste a day work and also asked to pay for court fee at £ 35.00 a go...!I have also another issue that I will ask the court. On the statement, the police officer refered to me as "Cavaliere" and not Mr Cavaliere which in my opinion reflect again on the way this matter was dealt with as I feel as I have been treated as a second rated citizen.
At most, I might get a fine of £ 200,00 I think. They cant ban me at this speed ( 89,25MPH on mortoway, on sunday morning, clear visibility, nice weather, not traffic) but depend how the court handle the case, I might be nice or I might argue a little.
In any case, if I get fined more than £60.00, I will refer the matter to my local MP and the European court of Justice and since the UK are already in hot water in this subject, then I wont mind having a go at it.


QUOTE (Barking Mad)
Salût Ollie et bienvenue!

Pardon, mais je vous demanderais "Où achète-on un permis-de-conduire français?"????

In English (for the others - and getting the accents in is complicated):

D'you mind if I ask you, Ollie, where you can get a French driver's licence from?


It just strikes me that having a French licence (or exchanging our British ones) stops all this points malarky dead in the water  icon_wink.gif
jeffreyarcher
Ollie,
Are you sure that you have to attend court?
Since you're pleading guilty, can't you just do it by post?
Or do you have to attend because you don't have a U.K. licence?
Monster
Although an EU licence can be used anywhere in the EU this is for visitor status only.

If you decide to reside in a certain EU Country then you should send the licence to the Secretary of State and apply for an exchange licence.

Any licence must have a current residence address on it, and you cannot put a UK address on a French licence.

There is a specified offence for failing to notify the Secretary of State a change of address.

Also, on the practical side, it would serve a much better purpose to have a UK licence whilst you reside in the UK.

It has been mentioned that non-EU licence holders have been arrested for an offence of speeding.  This is correct, but also EU licence holders have been as well if the address cannot be verified.

This may seem hard but unless we are positive about a persons identity and address then this is the only option.

A UK licence will negate being arrested as long as you notify DVLA a change of address.

Also, a warning to some.  We are fully aware of the forged EU and International licences that can be obtained via the internet.  Possession of one of these will win you the star prize of a criminal record and you vehicle will be seized as this will render you vehicle uninsured.

NB : We (Traffic Officers) are out there targeting crime and dangerous driving/defects.  We are not all obsessed will speed enforcement.
Lance
Monster,
How do your statements square with the EU directive on this matter?

See for example,
QUOTE ([url=http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/home/drivinglicence/principles/002_en.htm)
Mutual recognition[/url]]Directive 80/1263/EEC laid down a period of one year during which the exchange had to be carried out by the authorities of the state of residence. This obligation has been abolished since 1 July 1996, the date of entry into force of Directive 91/439/EEC. It is still possible to exchange licences but it has to be based on a purely voluntary action on the part of the licence holder.

At the time of the exchange, the Member State in which the holder has acquired normal residence issues a Community model licence of the corresponding category or categories, without the need for a theoretical or practical examination. Authorities must however check that the licence is valid.
(The emphasis is mine.)
Or see here:
QUOTE ([url=http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/pdf/INF38_040803.pdf)
Leaflet INF38 Driving in Great Britain (GB) as a visitor or a new resident[/url]]Visitors:
If you hold a valid Community licence and you are visiting Great Britain, you can drive any vehicle for as long as your licence remains valid. The appropriate full entitlement of the vehicle you wish to drive must be covered by the categories shown on your licence.
Residents:
If you have a valid Community licence, this will authorise you to drive in this country for the periods set out below.
Alternatively, you can apply to exchange your licence for a British one at any time.
Provided your licence remains valid you may drive in Great Britain –
Ordinary licence holders – until aged 70 or for 3 years after becoming resident whichever is the longer period.
So someone from abroad can keep driving until they are at least 70.

There also appears to be some useful advice for people from the rest of the EU (plus 3 countries from the EAA):
QUOTE
Register of Community Licence holders
Holders of Community licences with vocational entitlement who live in GB must by law register their details with DVLA.
Drivers of small vehicles may register also, if they wish. To register, drivers should notify DVLA of their name, address and driving entitlement. Drivers who register will receive their licence back together with a UK counterpart document. This would enable them to take advantage of the fixed penalty system for road traffic offences instead of having to go to court.
For further information please contact DVLA's Customer Enquiries Group, telephone number 0870 240 0009.
So, if you want to be able to get a fixed penalty, and you you have a non-UK EU licence, you can register your licence with the DVLA. They'll then give you a UK counterpart to your home licence, to which points can be added.
Monster
The quotes make interesting reading.  I would like to see the whole legislation, unless it has been updated since 1996 then it has been superseded.

As far as we are aware DVLA must be informed when taking up residency.

What is the date of the legislation you quote?

If this is true then this legislation is discriminate AGAINST UK licence holders who are permanent residents.

PM me the links and I'll verify/update the information you have provided.

Germany at the present have utilised their own legislation.

In 1996, EU Directive 91/439 was introduced, which stipulates that all driving licences have to be mutually recognized within the EU. Where the holder of a valid driving licence acquires "normal residence" in a member state other than that which issued the licence, the host country has to recognize the licence. If you wish you may also exchange or renew your license with the German licensing authority, which will be necessary once you have acquired a German address.

If you take up "normal residence" in a member state other than that which issued the licence, the host member state may enter on the licence any information needed for administration purposes and may apply its national rules.

I think you’ll find that residency is the same throughout the EU.  Each state have their own legislation that they can utilise. Until all EU licences are linked on an EU database then each state can implement this scheme.
Lance
Monster,

Some of these links were in my earlier post.

The directive 91/439/EEC is here. As I understand it, the directive was passed in 1991, and became operational in 1996. I cannot find any reference since to the mutual recognition principle having changed.

There is also an interesting "Interpretative Communication on driving licences", with some examples. This was written in 2002.

The DVLA leaflet that is also available at the Post Office is "Leaflet INF38 Driving in Great Britain (GB) as a visitor or a new resident". I misread this earlier. I now read this as saying that a non-UK EU licence holder residing in the UK can drive up until the age of 70, or 3 years after becoming resident if this is later.
QUOTE
Provided your licence remains valid you may drive in Great Britain –  
Ordinary licence holders – until aged 70 or for 3 years after becoming resident whichever is the longer period.
Also I found this on a German government website aimed at people coming to live in Germany.
QUOTE
Driving Licence

Driving licences from other member states of the European Union are valid in Germany. All other licences including "International driving licences" are normally only valid for six months. Before the time elapses a German licence must be applied for at the appropriate authority, in this case the "Ordnungamt". Please make enquiries as early as possible on the validity of your licence at your local authorities.
Insider
QUOTE ([url=http://www.international-license.com/ONU.pdf)
UN Convention on International Driving[/url]]
(B) A vehicle is said to be "in international traffic" in the territory of a State if:
(i) It is owned by a natural or legal person normally resident
outside that State;
(ii) It is not registered in that State; and
(iii) It is temporarily imported into that State;
provided, however, that a Contracting Party may refuse to regard as being "in international traffic" a vehicle which has remained in its territory for more than one year without a substantial interruption, the duration of which may be fixed by that Contracting Party.


No doubt this is where the original 1 year etc come from  icon_question.gif
Ocavaliere
I have to attend because I am worry that my French licence will be lost if I send it in the post and it would be a nightmare to obtain a duplicate.
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
Ollie,
Are you sure that you have to attend court?
Since you're pleading guilty, can't you just do it by post?
Or do you have to attend because you don't have a U.K. licence?
Ocavaliere
wrong! I spoke to DVLA and this is not a requirement.
If you read the EU directive on this issue, it is actually superside what the secretary of state stipulates.
Also, my licence has a photo for identification purpose.
Last thing, it is not a requirement in France to send your licence if you change of home address. Again, the photo is used to identification, not the address.

QUOTE (Monster)
Although an EU licence can be used anywhere in the EU this is for visitor status only.

If you decide to reside in a certain EU Country then you should send the licence to the Secretary of State and apply for an exchange licence.

Any licence must have a current residence address on it, and you cannot put a UK address on a French licence.

There is a specified offence for failing to notify the Secretary of State a change of address.

Also, on the practical side, it would serve a much better purpose to have a UK licence whilst you reside in the UK.

It has been mentioned that non-EU licence holders have been arrested for an offence of speeding.  This is correct, but also EU licence holders have been as well if the address cannot be verified.

This may seem hard but unless we are positive about a persons identity and address then this is the only option.

A UK licence will negate being arrested as long as you notify DVLA a change of address.

Also, a warning to some.  We are fully aware of the forged EU and International licences that can be obtained via the internet.  Possession of one of these will win you the star prize of a criminal record and you vehicle will be seized as this will render you vehicle uninsured.

NB : We (Traffic Officers) are out there targeting crime and dangerous driving/defects.  We are not all obsessed will speed enforcement.
Ocavaliere
good point !!!
QUOTE (Lance)
Monster,
How do your statements square with the EU directive on this matter?

See for example,
QUOTE ([url=http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/home/drivinglicence/principles/002_en.htm)
Mutual recognition[/url]]Directive 80/1263/EEC laid down a period of one year during which the exchange had to be carried out by the authorities of the state of residence. This obligation has been abolished since 1 July 1996, the date of entry into force of Directive 91/439/EEC. It is still possible to exchange licences but it has to be based on a purely voluntary action on the part of the licence holder.

At the time of the exchange, the Member State in which the holder has acquired normal residence issues a Community model licence of the corresponding category or categories, without the need for a theoretical or practical examination. Authorities must however check that the licence is valid.
(The emphasis is mine.)
Or see here:
QUOTE ([url=http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/pdf/INF38_040803.pdf)
Leaflet INF38 Driving in Great Britain (GB) as a visitor or a new resident[/url]]Visitors:
If you hold a valid Community licence and you are visiting Great Britain, you can drive any vehicle for as long as your licence remains valid. The appropriate full entitlement of the vehicle you wish to drive must be covered by the categories shown on your licence.
Residents:
If you have a valid Community licence, this will authorise you to drive in this country for the periods set out below.
Alternatively, you can apply to exchange your licence for a British one at any time.
Provided your licence remains valid you may drive in Great Britain –
Ordinary licence holders – until aged 70 or for 3 years after becoming resident whichever is the longer period.
So someone from abroad can keep driving until they are at least 70.

There also appears to be some useful advice for people from the rest of the EU (plus 3 countries from the EAA):
QUOTE
Register of Community Licence holders
Holders of Community licences with vocational entitlement who live in GB must by law register their details with DVLA.
Drivers of small vehicles may register also, if they wish. To register, drivers should notify DVLA of their name, address and driving entitlement. Drivers who register will receive their licence back together with a UK counterpart document. This would enable them to take advantage of the fixed penalty system for road traffic offences instead of having to go to court.
For further information please contact DVLA's Customer Enquiries Group, telephone number 0870 240 0009.
So, if you want to be able to get a fixed penalty, and you you have a non-UK EU licence, you can register your licence with the DVLA. They'll then give you a UK counterpart to your home licence, to which points can be added.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.