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Scottish_Guy
Basiclly tonight i was caught doing 90mph in a 60mph zone i am still within my first 2 years of passing my test.... Am i aswell to say goodbye to my licence??

Any info would be great

Once again i know i was wrong and my own fault completley.. Also need the car for work so prob going to lose job but can only blame myself
glasgow_bhoy
Depends on the punishment- your due a court appearance for that, and a ban may be considered. A short ban is what you should wish for- 6 points and your a learner again. Although your insurance with a ban will be a bitch.

Depends very much on which road you were caught on.. M8 and your not so bad... but A82 and you could be stuffed!
BigRaph

When you say "caught" . have you received a nip or just been flashed ?
Aretnap
Or been stopped by a copper...?

If it's a postal NIP do the NIP wizard (towards the top right of the screen).o
redloner
There's more here which may be helpful in the OP's absence.

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=3639373
Scottish_Guy
hi sorry for slow reply fell asleep lol. I was stopped by a copper that had a laser speed gun... all he said was that he was reporting me for the offence of excess speed..
Scottish_Guy
looking on a few other things on the site i dont believe i was given a verbal NIP.. i got the caution but the part under verbal NIP wasnt said to me all he said was you will be reported and will hear from the PF does this still count as one?
BaggieBoy
Sounds like a verbal NIP to me.
Scottish_Guy
i dont actualy believe that i was going 90 ethier but i dont see the point in arguing it... when i went past the alleged point of where i was caught i was only doing about 80... it was another at least a mile n a half before i got pulled....

maybe i have wreaked everything by accepting it at roadside but was that scared that i just wanted to get it over and done with
Aretnap
He is required to warn you that the question of prosecuting you for some one or other of the offences to which Section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act applies (one of which is speeding) will be taken into consideration. There is no single magic form of words which he has to use to do it. You seem to know that you may be prosecuted for speeding, so he seems to have complied with the requirement.
Scottish_Guy
I was also told by a mate that i should of asked for the colaberation certificate im guessing its a bit late for this now.. i didnt know about this at the time
Glacier2
That won't help you.

Sit tight and wait for the PF to make his move, ie a citation.
Scottish_Guy
Is it worth having an apology letter drafted to send in.. This is my first ever offence and i have totally learnt my lesson. I'm even to scared to go out in the car untill i find out what is going to happen..

I have drafted a letter with what i think would do but if you would like a look at it then i can post it on here. I know im getting well ahead of myself but i really have had the s**ts put up me.

Is it true that they have up to 6 months to get me up in court? Could i have this on my mind for that lenght of time?
Aretnap
Potentially yes, it can take up to 6 months. Have a look at the mitigation FAQ for examples of the sort of thing which can help.
Scottish_Guy
ahh ok. Thanks for the link will help alot. In the letter i have just said how sorry i am for the whole thing for watsing there time and everything..

What happens if i dont agree with the speed they say i was doing 90 but im sure that my speedo said 80ish i know its still well over the limit but that would put me within the limit for 3 points and fine..
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Mon, 28 Nov 2011 - 14:52) *
ahh ok. Thanks for the link will help alot. In the letter i have just said how sorry i am for the whole thing for watsing there time and everything..

What happens if i dont agree with the speed they say i was doing 90 but im sure that my speedo said 80ish i know its still well over the limit but that would put me within the limit for 3 points and fine..



You'd go before the Sheriff and argue why the Police device and opinion of the officer was incorrect. Suicide potentially when you've already stated you drove on further so don't know the point at which the reading was taken?
Scottish_Guy
oh ok thanks so really its not worth it then.. Will just go for the plead guilty charge wen i t comes to it then and go down the im ever so sorry route and see what happens.

I know i done wrong and so need to face the result of it
AFCNEAL
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Mon, 28 Nov 2011 - 15:48) *
oh ok thanks so really its not worth it then.. Will just go for the plead guilty charge wen i t comes to it then and go down the im ever so sorry route and see what happens.

I know i done wrong and so need to face the result of it


Most of us on here have been there/done that so no criticism from here!!
Scottish_Guy
lol thanks mate been on a few sites looking for advice n got some s***e from a few of them
Scottish_Guy
Hi i recieved my citation through the post today and im due to appear in court on the 30th of Jan.

They have given me the option to plead guilty by letter is this my best option to do?

If i do that option and send it in before the 30th Jan will they decide whats happening before the 30th or will it still be that date?

thanks again
The Rookie
Little point pleading guilty by letter really, they will just adjourn and require you to attend as they'll be considering a ban.

Simon
Logician
One option you might consider is attending and saying words to the effect of "I realise you have no option but to ban me today because of my grossly excessive speed, but I do ask you to keep the length of the ban as short as possible because I am at real risk of losing my job over this."

A ban will not lead to your licence being revoked, bizarrely, and should short enough for you to cover by holidays, public transport or getting lifts. On the other hand 6 points gets your licence revoked and requires you to re-take your test. 5 points seems difficult to get this offence down to.
Scottish_Guy
Hi folks just an update to let you all know that my court case is tomorrow. Going to go in a suit and that. Will update you all tomorrow and let you know how i get on any last words of advice??

thanks again

ash
Scottish_Guy
would it be worth asking them for a ban or are they just going to go for the points and revoke the licence do you think?
henrik777
I assume you are pleading guilty. Ask the clerk if you can speak to the fiscal beforehand. Ask if they will accept a guilty plea to a lower speed perhaps 83-85 mph (lower if you want but don't take the urine or they'll say no). Ideally low enough to avoid a ban.

Take 3 copies of Gemmell with you. Also read it tonight. Do not mention it or show it until sentencing.

"Disqualification from driving and penalty points
[69] These disposals, in my opinion, constitute a sentence and come within the express wording of section 196.

Disqualification from driving
[70] In my opinion, a period of disqualification from driving is a penalty (cf Adair v Munn 1940 JC 69). As such it is a "sentence ... or other disposal or order." However, in the case of a disqualification, any discount granted cannot take the period of disqualification below the statutory minimum. The absence of an enabling provision such as is contained in section 196(2) of the 1995 Act (supra) indicates that this result was intended by the Parliament, whether it was to protect the public or to punish the offender.

Penalty points
[71] For the same reasons, I consider that sentence discounting applies also to the imposition of penalty points for road traffic offences. The question was considered by a court of two judges in Stewart v Griffiths (2005 SCCR 291). In an extempore judgment that runs to 18 lines in the law report, the court held that penalty points were not like a financial penalty. They were in the nature of a warning to the accused as to his future driving. For that reason the court refused to reduce the number of penalty points imposed. The relevant authorities on the point were not cited to the court.
[72] In Tudhope v Eadie (1984 JC 6) a Full Bench decided that the imposition of penalty points was a penalty in itself (cf Coogans v MacDonald 1954 JC 98, Lord Justice-General Cooper at p 104). The imposition of penalty points is a form of order that falls within the ambit of section 196. The Strasbourg jurisprudence is to the same effect (Malige v France (1999) 28 EHRR 578). In my opinion, Stewart v Griffiths was wrongly decided and should be over-ruled."


When you then get called and plead guilty listen carefully for the sentence. They will tell you you are getting x penalty points and a fine. The fine will be discounted for your guilty plea. The points should be discounted too ( a new development). The max is 6 but after discount should be 4. If the fine is discounted by 33% then so should the points. If the fine is reduced by 25% then it's 4.5 points so you may get 4 or 5 depending how they round it.

When they announce the sentence make sure it's ALL discounted and not just the fine. If the discount is only applied to the fine, politely ask if the Judge can apply the bindimg judgement of Gemmell and give the clerk 1 copy for the Judge and 1 for the Fiscal.



To be clear, you can no longer get 6 points when you plead guilty as that is the maximum points. You are pleading guilty so get a discount. This means you're DL can't be revoked. You can still be banned if you don't get points though.
Logician
There is a possible snag to that, the judge might say "I would be inclined to exercise my power to order a discretionary disqualification for such an excessive speed, however you have pleaded guilty and are therefore entitled to a discount for that. In your case the discount will take the form of not disqualifying you immediately, but placing 6 penalty points on your ;icence instead"
henrik777
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 18:25) *
There is a possible snag to that, the judge might say "I would be inclined to exercise my power to order a discretionary disqualification for such an excessive speed, however you have pleaded guilty and are therefore entitled to a discount for that. In your case the discount will take the form of not disqualifying you immediately, but placing 6 penalty points on your ;icence instead"


I'd argue that it's penalty points or a ban. The discount is on the headline sentence and is subject to a statutory minimum. This is also why i advocate not bringing in Gemmell until sentence is passed as you don't wish for it to influence the headline sentence. I really doubt that what you suggest would be kosher.
Scottish_Guy
henrik did you get my pm?

does that dscount apply for the UK, or is it just England. I am in Scotland and that is where the offenc took place. We seem to have own own laws on most things!!!

also i pleaded quilty when i recived the NIP thru the post i sent in a letter stating i was pleding guilty that was back at the start of the month. Will that work in my favour??

Also when i attend the court do i just ask out right to speak to the Proc fiscal before my hearing. I'd be scared to do that incase it was taken as being cheeky and trying my luck.

Sorry just really nervous now as really cant afford to lose licence
henrik777
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 18:36) *
henrik did you get my pm?

does that dscount apply for the UK, or is it just England. I am in Scotland and that is where the offenc took place. We seem to have own own laws on most things!!!


Yeah got it. Replied. Discount on points is only available in our civilised country another reason to put up with the cold weather wink.gif There is a clue in the Scottish court Judgement i linked to - Gemmell biggrin.gif



Scottish_Guy
looked at that gemmel and must say im confused as hell lol
henrik777
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 18:42) *
looked at that gemmel and must say im confused as hell lol



Ignore most of it as it just explains how they decided what they did.

On 1 copy (yours) highlight para 69 -72 as that's what you need if they court hasn't retrained the staff to give you the discount you're entitled to.
Scottish_Guy
henrik when i go to the court do i just ask to speak to the Proc fiscal?? like i said in previous post i would be scared of doing that incase i sonded cheeky or tryin to push my luck lol.

I pleaded guilty by letter when the NIP came through will this have an affect on trying to lower it. I didnt agree with the 90mph as when i looked i was btween the 80-85mph i did state this in the letter.

sorry for all the questions. Thanks for taking the time to help
Logician
QUOTE (henrik777 @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 18:32) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 18:25) *
There is a possible snag to that, the judge might say "I would be inclined to exercise my power to order a discretionary disqualification for such an excessive speed, however you have pleaded guilty and are therefore entitled to a discount for that. In your case the discount will take the form of not disqualifying you immediately, but placing 6 penalty points on your ;icence instead"


I'd argue that it's penalty points or a ban. The discount is on the headline sentence and is subject to a statutory minimum. This is also why i advocate not bringing in Gemmell until sentence is passed as you don't wish for it to influence the headline sentence. I really doubt that what you suggest would be kosher.



I do not know what view the Scottish courts take, but it would be perfectly normal in England/Wales. A discount for a G plea can take the form of dropping to a lower form of sentence, eg a fine instead of a community sentence, or not sending the case up to a higher court for a more severe sentence, ie sentencing to the maximum 6 months custody a magistrates' court can impose, instead of sending the case to the Crown Court.
henrik777
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 18:50) *
henrik when i go to the court do i just ask to speak to the Proc fiscal?? like i said in previous post i would be scared of doing that incase i sonded cheeky or tryin to push my luck lol.

I pleaded guilty by letter when the NIP came through will this have an affect on trying to lower it. I didnt agree with the 90mph as when i looked i was btween the 80-85mph i did state this in the letter.

sorry for all the questions. Thanks for taking the time to help



Yeah. Get there sharpish. There should be a clerk of the court floating about with a clipboard making sure everyone is there. Just ask him if he could point out the Fiscal as you'd like a quick word before court. Then just ask if they'll accept a guilty plea to 85 (or whatever you decide) as you don't think your speed was quite that high (90 mph). The worst that happens is they tell you to get lost. Had it not been for the letter stating such then it'd be pointless after you had already pleed guilty. It's worth a try. An easy guilty case is better for them as it eases the workload.

The fiscals are only doing a job. Some are actually quite nice people. I thought so of 3 of the ones i dealt with. The others not so. Just be civil.
Scottish_Guy
ok thank you so much i will need to try and find a printer to print off this gemmel now. will leave you alone now and update tomorrow lol

once again thank you so much
henrik777
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Sun, 29 Jan 2012 - 19:00) *
ok thank you so much i will need to try and find a printer to print off this gemmel now. will leave you alone now and update tomorrow lol

once again thank you so much



You're welcome. Hope it gets a nice result.


To answer your PM, I always printed case law in full. I'm not sure on the practicality of it but i considered that they couldn't have an issue with the full judgement whereas they could with just part of it. I did consider having a copy on my laptop and just the page(s) required to show the others as that kills 2 birds with one stone but i decided not to although i did go not guilty and didn't want to annoy them. By the time you introduce Gemmelll the decisions are made and it's just an admin exercise so maybe printing 1 copy and 2 copies of the info would suffice with 1 laptop copy.
Scottish_Guy
Hi guys just a quick update to let yas know how I got on today in court.

Plead guilty and because I wrote in early pleading guilty I managed to get 3 points and a £300 fine. I just wanna thank you all so much you lot saved my licence I couldn't have done it without you guys once again thank you sooo much
henrik777
Very nice.

Were the points higher then discounted ? Did you have to ask ?
Scottish_Guy
Hi it was going to be a £650 fine and 6 points but reduced to the £300 fine and 3 points because of the early guilty plea.

Nope didn't have to ask was just said to me biggrin.gif
henrik777
QUOTE (Scottish_Guy @ Mon, 30 Jan 2012 - 23:58) *
Hi it was going to be a £650 fine and 6 points but reduced to the £300 fine and 3 points because of the early guilty plea.

Nope didn't have to ask was just said to me biggrin.gif



That's a bloody good discount ohmy.gif Nice to see the courts have passed the information on as well cool.gif
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