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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Gantry 6514B Not showing speed limits
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freddouk
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2011
Date of the NIP: - 21 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 23 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M42/M6 Toll, Junction 9-8, Gantry 6514B, MP41/4 Southbound
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Southbound at M42/M6 junction. First Gantry ( 6514B ?) was only showing Red Circles on all Lanes. (Red squares with chamfered corners) but no speeds. Light traffic, well spaced, all doing much same speed. I did not see any flash or any other indication of camera activity.
I wrote to Camera Unit manager asking for location of 6514B gantry asking him if this was the first one and if so then it wasn't showing any speed limits. He didn't ID the gantry but said it WAS showing 60 and had been for some time.... How can I ask for evidence of location ID and a recording of it working?


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 15:12:38 +0000
jobo
can you just clear up a couple of things ?

you were in a variable limit

the speed they alleged and what limit they say was in place

freddouk
Hi Folks, Sorry to only be here for the wrong reasons but nowhere else offers this kind of help and advice for free.
Does anyone know how to get the information from Warwickshire Police regarding the status of the Gantry Speed sign at the time of the incident?
Also can any one confirm the location of Gantry 6514B, is it the first one I would see when coming off M6 Toll southbound onto the M42?.
This gantry was definitely not working, ie Displaying speeds. I passed a couple more, I think, before I got onto the M6 Southbound again which were displaying 60, which I complied with, well certainly wouldn't be doing 74 mph through them.
southpaw82
You could try a FoI request to the Highways Agency. Bear in mind the time limits to respond to this in relation to your time limits to name the driver and accept/reject any offer of an FPN.
freddouk
HI Jobo, sorry the alleged limit was 60 and my alleged speed was 74. I sound like Perry Mason haha.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (freddouk @ Sat, 26 Nov 2011 - 15:41) *
HI Jobo, sorry the alleged limit was 60 and my alleged speed was 74. I sound like Perry Mason haha.


Given the maximum speed limit is 70 mph you are struggling to start with.
If they cannot prove the speed limit was enforceable, i.e. the correct sign was displayed etc then any summons citing the wrong offence should fail. However if you plead not guilty then you will be asked for the basis of your plea. If you are vague and on the day of the trial ambush the prosecutor the bench can give an adjournment to allow the prosecution to produce the appropriate evidence. They may however simply throw it out. I must say that the speed camera systems are a very sleek operation these days and they tend to just put together copies of everything and put it on ever file for prosecution.

The prosecutor can also apply for an amendment to the summons citing the speed limit as 70 mph. There are many people on this forum who believe they know people who have been prosecuted at this sort of speed (4mph above NSL) over the limit, (albeit in my 30 years in the Police I never knew of one) so there is that danger.

As the speed is within 10% + 9 (75mph) of the speed limit a speed awareness course may be offered if the driver hasn't done one in the last 3 years. This will cost more than £60 but is no points.

If you mess about the offer of a course may not materialise, however a COFP which is £60 and 3 points is the alternative penalty.

If you do not name the driver within 28 days it will probably cost you 6 points and £500 together with the increased insurance premiums for 5 years.
jobo
QUOTE (sgtdixie @ Sat, 26 Nov 2011 - 16:48) *
QUOTE (freddouk @ Sat, 26 Nov 2011 - 15:41) *
HI Jobo, sorry the alleged limit was 60 and my alleged speed was 74. I sound like Perry Mason haha.


Given the maximum speed limit is 70 mph you are struggling to start with.
If they cannot prove the speed limit was enforceable, i.e. the correct sign was displayed etc then any summons citing the wrong offence should fail. However if you plead not guilty then you will be asked for the basis of your plea. If you are vague and on the day of the trial ambush the prosecutor the bench can give an adjournment to allow the prosecution to produce the appropriate evidence. They may however simply throw it out. I must say that the speed camera systems are a very sleek operation these days and they tend to just put together copies of everything and put it on ever file for prosecution.

The prosecutor can also apply for an amendment to the summons citing the speed limit as 70 mph. There are many people on this forum who believe they know people who have been prosecuted at this sort of speed (4mph above NSL) over the limit, (albeit in my 30 years in the Police I never knew of one) so there is that danger.

As the speed is within 10% + 9 (75mph) of the speed limit a speed awareness course may be offered if the driver hasn't done one in the last 3 years. This will cost more than £60 but is no points.

If you mess about the offer of a course may not materialise, however a COFP which is £60 and 3 points is the alternative penalty.

If you do not name the driver within 28 days it will probably cost you 6 points and £500 together with the increased insurance premiums for 5 years.


almost, it my understanding( but im willing to be corrected ) that both machines and signs (and this is both) and therefore gantry's are assumed to be correct, with the onus on the defence to present reasonable doubt that this is so, rather than put them to proof that it worked as intended, so you would be looking at requesting either through FOI or through the court, the procedure that should be followed and proof that they were undertaken, ive know this done with road work signs which are close to the same thing in thats its near impossible to show what was there later

but i agree with SD that you should keep your options open to see if a course turns up,



odom
It's worth noting that we've had a real rush of enquiries here regarding this particular gantry, with many saying they don't think the speed limit was displayed correctly.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q...pipoo.com+6514B

As others have said, this is difficult to prove, as there is no secondary check showing the display, like there is for red light cameras. Also, not all the gantries contain live cameras, so that will inevitably skew the search results. Might be worth getting in touch with the local press though, as they will be able to push the police far more than you can.


freddouk
Many thanks to Jobo,SgtDixie, Southpaw and Odom for your inputs.
I have replied to the NIP and incriminated meself. They responded very quickly offering the course for £80 or COFP for £60+3 as SgtDixie said they would, and his reminder about the admitted 74mph has stayed my hand at challenging in Court, as my complete faith in the British instinct for natural Justice has been shattered long ago......I won't take the course as I am too old to learn any new tricks and the cost of getting there and back is now extortionate.
Odoms comment ( and link ) about the high number of Drivers being caught on this Gantry is very interesting. So I have taken Southpaws advice and asked the Highways Agency if they have and, can release, under the Freedom of Information Act, any records of correct or incorrect functioning of the signage and cameras on Gantry 6514B southbound, particularly covering my incident time window. They say it will take up to 20 days to get a response as to whether they can do this then probably longer to actually supply.

Is there any chance that you guys at Pepipoo.com can raise an issue about gantry 6514B cameras with the Highways Agency?

In the meantime I have to respond to the COPF in the next 10 days so I will 'Take da Rap' and try for an appeal or re-trial later.

I'll let you know what happens.
jobo
no mate you cant do that, either accept the FPN and write it off, OR take it to court

if you can get the FOI request back in time to view it, before the cofp has to be returned that may give you an insite to if you have a defence

nb, be very careful how you word the FOI request, make it to wide and they will claim the cost exclusion, ask the wrrong question and you will get the wrong answer
sgtdixie
QUOTE
I won't take the course as I am too old to learn any new tricks and the cost of getting there and back is now extortionate.


I would agree that if the cost including travelling etc is too high and you are an older driver with no other points the COFP is a better choice. But I would say having presented speed awareness courses that the people who get most out of them are in fact experienced older drivers who have perhaps gotten into bad habits. It all depends on how it is presented of course.

Jobo is correct, accept the COFP and it is game over you can't go back. The only way to challenge this is to plead not guilty and go to court.
squaredeal
QUOTE (freddouk @ Sun, 27 Nov 2011 - 15:13) *
.....I won't take the course as I am too old to learn any new tricks and the cost of getting there and back is now extortionate.


Unless you live on the Isle of Wight or Scotland, your nearest course venue is no more than 1 county away. See SAC FAQs for full list in case you haven't been supplied one with your COoFP.
freddouk
Sgtdixie and square deal, thanks for replies.....I guess an old dog maybe can learn a new trick or two. So, in response to squaredeals information about Course availability, I read the small print of the Course offer and there are Courses offered locally, and they are cheaper!! So for little more than the price of the Fine I don't get 3 points which SgtDixie said earlier may have cost more in Insurance premiums.
Thanks for the help guys.
Now all we need is to get the FOI stuff from Highways Agency to help others.
3phase278
QUOTE (freddouk @ Sat, 26 Nov 2011 - 15:12) *
(Red squares with chamfered corners)


really? they have been circular every time i've seen them - another reason to invest in a dash cam i reckon

FOI request would be interesting reading too - if someone has time to do it

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