I received a PCN for parking over the parking bay line, the road markings in the road are very poor and from the driver side you couldn't see them. They have provided photo evidence of me being over the line but its the other side I never even saw.

The council has confirmed that the markings "are in poor condition and in need of refurbishment and have been added to their current works programme" however they also said that they were "substantially complient and enforceable"

I have provided photo evidence how poor they are and quoted regs I found online as to the standard they should be, clearly they are not. They rejected the appeal probably because of the photo from the only angle you could see the line.

Shall I now go to make a formal representation or just pay up? it's £30 going up to £60, but it's the principle. Any experience of these formal representations, is it worth it or will they just look at the one photo the traffic warden took and ignore the other evidence?

I've read the FAQs and got some good advice in the moneysaving expert forum about posting here, I'll be getting the images to post tomorrow night. In the meantime what are the rules around condition of parking bay markings?

I quoted the Department for Transport Road Signs Manual/ Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions (TSRGD) 2002 which didn't have any effect.

I also quoted the following which again had no effect at the appeal

according to The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions General Regulations (2007), the following must be contained on a Penalty Charge Notice written out by a Civil Enforcement Officer:
That you can appeal within the first 28 days and how you need to make the appeal, including the address (and email and fax if appropriate) that appeals should be sent to.
• The grounds under which you can make an appeal.
• That if your formal appeal is made on time but is rejected, that you can appeal to an adjudicator.

You can see from the PCN none of this is included and for this reason the PCN should be cancelled.

Any advice on this also? I have photos of the car and bay markings if it helps? 1st and 2nd photos are the PCN, 3rd is the outcome of the appeal, 4th is reponse from the council following my complaint about condition of bay markings

You must post the top of the PCN - it appears that this is a Road Traffic Act 1991 notice, not the Traffic Management Act.

HCA

ok, will do, give me 10..

I've added in a photo, they have provided a photo of the back wheel over the line but you can see the poor condition of the lines which I didnt see from the other side. I have other photos but this sums it up. I parked directly behind the red car assuming it was in the bay and I couldn't see otherwise

Where is it?

Photo which council provided, if that's what you mean?

Clearly 'selective' photo evidence on their part.

Maintenance of those lines is a joke. The cobbles might be excusable and given some leeway by an Adjudicator but surely not the ones missing from the carriageway.

Your point about not being able to see and be guided from the driver's position is wholly valid IMO, both in front and behind?

May I suggest you return and put the car back in situ. Take pics with date and time stamps. First identical to their one and then v quickly one from the carriageway side to prove the absence of any reasonably visible marking. ( and in front if applicable).

Yes they are a joke that's why it's such an injustice and it's the same from the driver side rear also. It's actually the street I live on and has been deteriorating for years. I've got a couple more photos which I'll add tonight and I'll do as you suggest the weekend as I won't be in the area during the day when it's light.

Is there a reg or decision on the marking conditions? I can't see one anywhere on this site plus I've looked in the articles. Does it help the council have agreed about the poor condition?


How about the PCN? any view on that? valid?

I think the dates on the PCN are correct, and I think they may even be OK not to mention informal appeals on the PCN, as it's the RTA1991 that applies - I guess you are in Scotland?

Those lines - lack of - are shocking, I would continue to appeal on that basis if it were me but you do need to be aware that it then becomes 'all or nothing' as the discounted penalty 'offer' will be gone.

Someone may know of an adjudication based on lack of lines that may help your appeal, if not then I would do a formal appeal re-stating your informal appeal and saying if they reject then you'll go to adjudication and require the Traffic Order, CEO's notes (and all photos taken, if not yet all disclosed).

Yes I'm in Scotland

More photos below showing general poor condition of road. So you think my only avenue it the road condition? what I can't find is what is the minimum standard? at what level of deterioration is acceptable? also, there is nothing on the signs or pay machine (although I have a permit) to say you have to park within parking bays, is this required?

There's no defined level of deterioration that is acceptable and in some cases adjudicators have said lines with odd gaps are 'substantially compliant'. But I would stick my neck out and say I think those tiny scraps of lines are surely not!

We have seen that level of faded lines before and I recall a case in Edinburgh which a female poster won before adjudication, IIRC, recently with practically non-existent lines like that (although she had another point about the signage as well). There was also a chap, again in Scotland, who won at adjudication after posting on here this year, where the adjudicator agreed that the absence of bay lines means you would not even go looking for a machine to pay at. Can't recall the usernames though, may be findable with a good/lucky keywords search.

Where is the sign on the side of the road where you parked, that tells you to display your permit or 'pay at machine'? I can't see it, may be worth a look at the wording of the sign or lack of one.

Sign below, is it ok? by the way should I include the email from the council confirming the bay markings are in poor condition and will be scheduled into their work programme. Also include the whole email including it being "substantially compliant" allegedly

any more views on this? make my mind up time tomorrow

I was meant to pay by 24/11, I didn't because I intend to make a formal representation. I've heard nothing from the council, 26 days later. Is there a time limit where I must receive their next letter?

Although they should consider your representations at the informal stage they are not legally required to reply.

Their only deadline in play at the moment is to send the NTO within the six month limit

I received the notice to owner this morning, it gives me 6 grounds for appeal. As my appeal is based on poor condition of parking bay markings I'm going for D) the relevant designation order was invalid.

What I would like to know is, as the council has confirmed that the markings "are in poor condition and in need of refurbishment and have been added to their current works programme" however they also said that they were "substantially compliant and enforceable" should I include this email in my appeal?

Based on the photos I would say it isn't substantially compliant and certainly not where I was parked.

I would try appealing under the grounds of the contravention did not occur. Simply beacuse (as I have seen it put somewhere else on here) how can you be out of a bay when the bay does not exist. This obviously assumes that the markings are in such a dreadful condition that the bay is not clear at all, which seems to be true in this case.

Just my thoughts so maybe someone with a bit more knowledge will prove me wrong!

I agree with you JT-Online, it should be 'the contravention did not occur' as there is practically no bay marked there at all, let alone dividing lines between each car space. Also the sign does not tell you that you have to park between bay lines - scubascuba3 do you know if the Traffic Order even defines parking outside of bays as a contravention here?

You only got the NTO this morning so you have time to email for the Traffic Order first if you act quickly. Please show a picture of the NTO, what's the date of the Notice and did you keep the franked envelope (important - was it posted 1st class the same day?).

what do you mean the traffic order? where do i get that?

how about the email from the council?

You can reasonably assume that the traffic order (the document which establishes traffic restrictions e.g. parking, waiting, loading etc) requires the council to mark the parking place in accordance with the requirements of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. And they clearly haven't, therefore, as proper marking is a precondition of creating the restriction, the restriction didn't exist.

Contravention did not occur - council has failed to mark the area with traffic signs as required under its traffic order and therefore there was no restriction in place and the contravention did not occur.

(if you obtain the TRO before you submit your reps, post it and we can see the precise article which refers. If you don't then I suggest you add to the above "In the event that the council rejects these representations you require it to provide you with a copy of the traffic order or those articles which deal with interpretation, establish the restrictions and deal with Traffic Signs.)

I would still like to see the NTO and the full top of the PCN (you've redacted this and we cannot see the name of the council and, importantly, whoever "City Parking" are and on whose behalf they're supposedly working). There's no reason to not disclose this info.


HCA

See attached, the scan isn't the clearest, some of the photos of the PCN may be clearer further up the thread







I've asked the council for the Traffic Order although I'm not optimistic they'll send it

Bump..I'm finalising the letter so I'd appreciate any further comments you have

No rush, the NTO has only just been served and you have another 20 days to get the appeal in.

You may get more reposnses here after the holidays, next week. Post a draft of your appeal here mid-evening on a weekday, that's when most peeps seem to look.

Hello, see below letter I'm planing to use as the formal representation/appeal, can you let me know what you think plus about the other Council letters, thanks

I'd like to send the letter in the next couple of days so I'd appreciate it the people who asked me to post the letters and photos etc commented, thanks

Well I think that appeal letter reads in a very reasonable and clear way, I would send it off unless anyone else adds anything.

I assume the PCN number is quoted at the top?

Thanks, yep the number is at the top, I'll include the letter I sent for the original appeal which was recommended also.

After 4 months the council has eventually cancelled the ticket, they seemed to eventually accept the road markings were insufficient.

It's nice to win but in hindsight for the hassle of investigating online, taking photos, writing letters and general hassle, was it really worth it and answer is probably not. I would recommend before someone bothers to take it on it may be easier just to pay the fine in my case £30. Plus if I'm honest I was disappointed with the response on Pepipoo. A couple of people helped but some wanted more info which takes effort and then don't bother commenting further.

Sorry you feel that way.

At least it will serve as a template for any future PCN's you may receive and you'll know to take the pictures there and then.

It's not about the amount of money, it's the principle of having to pay for something you shouldn't otherwise have to pay. This forum has probably saved people hundreds of thousands of pounds, if not more, over the years.

I am a bit surprised! You have a 29 post thread here - plenty of replies and advice - and you won...

Glad about the win

You've no reason to be disappointed. You had contributions from several of the most respected advisors on council tickets and you did after all win.

The thread had more than 1200 views. Forty views for every post is more than usual, but if members can see that you're already getting good and clear advice there's no point in repeating it.

I appreciate everyone who did post, so thanks to them. I do think that someone should have a good think before appealing, taking into account time spent,etc

your next appeal will be so much easier though - and those of your friends and relatives

To be honest it's what they want you to do. Heavens knows how many unjust parking fines are dished out. Those that are challenged all the way are a tiny minority.

But have a high success rate

If all the winnable tickets were appealed the system would soon lock up

I suggest that you look upon the whole experience as an investment in your future.

You will be getting more Penalty Charges, as Enforcement Authorities seek to maximise the take from the indirect taxation that it is. There is no "IF" about it. The former regime expanded the pool and the current regime has no intention of doing anything about it.

The days of 50 years of motoring with no penalties or speeding tickets etc are simply long gone. When you receive your next penalty you now know where to get good advice.