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SDSTERN
I WAS DIRECTED HERE FROM MSAVINGEXPERT FORUM

I HAD A PCN WHILST THE CEO OBSERVED MY CAR FOR 1 MINUTE IN CPZ.

I APPEALED INFORMALLY AND ASSUMED THEY ACCEPTED BECAUSE THEY TOOK OVER 3 MONTHS TO RESPOND. THEY RESPONDED BY SENDING ME NOTICE TO OWNER. I PHONED THE COUNCIL WHO ASKED ME TO RESEND THE INFORMAL EMAIL APPEAL AND NOW THEY HAVE AGREED TO GIVE ME AN EXTRA 14 DAYS TO PAY THE ORIGINAL £55 REDUCED FEE.

ONE OF THE POSTERS AT MSEXPERT SUGGESTED THIS MIGHT BE PROCEDURAL IMPROPRIETY AND TO GET YOUR ESTEEMED OPINIONS:

"The Council have issued an NtO stating the full penalty amount, then later/now, responded to the driver's informal appeal and re-offered the discount. That situation has been seen before and IMHO completely confuses the appeal procedure - how can he Owner know which amount is correct and how can the Owner know he/she still has to FORMALLY appeal?

I think you may have a case to say 'procedural impropriety' now - but get some top advice on pepipoo asap."

HERE IS THE COUNCIL EMAIL:


Dear Simon Stern,

Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN): AG60008597
Date of service of this notice: 18/11/2011

Thank you for your letter which was received on regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice which was issued on 05/08/2011 14:19:30 at 14:19 to CV04LFN on MANOR PARK CRESCENT for the contravention Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

I have considered everything in your letter but I do not feel that you have made grounds for cancelling the Notice and as such payment remains due.

I have rejected your reasons for cancellation because the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed the vehicle parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The restrictions are marked by a yellow line and are operational from the hours indicated on the time plate.

I note your comments regarding your reasons for parking in contravention however alternative parking could have been found in the vicinity. I must inform you that it is the driver’s responsibility to check the restrictions that apply to the location you park in. Parking on a restricted street is an instant contravention and therefore I am unable to cancel your PCN.

Because you wrote to us during the period when you could have paid the Notice at the reduced amount, you can still pay the reduced amount of £55.00, if the payment is received by this office before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of this letter.

If you want to pay, please see the How to Pay section at the end of this letter. If you decide to make a formal appeal, you must not pay the notice, but wait for a Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle. At this point, you may not be able to pay the reduced amount.

If you do not pay the reduced amount before the end of the 14 day period mentioned above or pay the full amount of £110.00 before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the Notice, whichever is later, then we will issue a Notice to Owner to the registered keeper of the vehicle. Formal representations against the Notice may be made at that stage and the procedure for doing so and the grounds for making a formal representation will be explained on the Notice to Owner.


Yours sincerely,

K. Layne

Parking Service


BELOW IS MY ORIGINAL INFORMAL APPEAL:

"I PARKED FOR A FEW MINUTES ON MANOR PARK CRESCENT OUTSIDE MELVIN ESTATE AGENTS BECAUSE I AM APPLYING FOR A JOB AT BEELINE MINICABS.

THERE WAS NO PARKING AROUND THE AREA CLOSE BY.

MR MASOOD, THE OWNER OF BEELINE CABS, REQUIRED TO VIEW MY CAR AND SO I HAD RUN ROUND THE CORNER STATION ROAD HALIFAX BANK TO RING THE DOORBELL FOR HIM TO COME DOWN.

I HAD ALSO TO SHOW HIM MY TAXI LICENCE BADGE.

IN THE SPACE OF A FEW MINUTES THE PARKING OFFICER HAD ISSUED THE TICKET AND HAD NOT GIVEN ANY TIME. I NOTE HE VIEWED MY VEHICLE FOR 1 MINUTE.

FURTHERMORE MY VEHICLE WAS NOT CAUSING ANY OBSTRUCTION AND I WAS NOT BLOCKING ENTRANCE TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL CLUB EITHER, I HAVE CONFIRMED THIS ON GOOGLE MAPS VIEWER.

YOURS SINCERELY

SIMON STERN."


I BELIEVED IN MY IGNORANCE THAT BECAUSE THERE WAS NO NEARBY PARKING AND MY CAR ITSELF WAS THE "ITEM TO BE UNLOADED" FOR "VIEWING" I WAS OK.


MANY THANKS FOR YOUR HELP

SIMON.


I DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL PCN, I THOUGHT AS THEY WERE TOO LONG REPLYING TO BIN IT..
southpaw82
Don't use caps, please.
hcandersen
IMO the key issue at this stage is: were the council requiring 2 levels of penalty charge from 2 legal entities (the person who submitted the informal reps and the registered keeper) at the same time. If so, they're b******d.

So please answer the following accurately:

What is the date of the NTO? (it would be helpful if you were to post this as well)

What was the date of their response to your informal reps? (it could be 18 Nov, but please confirm)


HCA
SDSTERN
The council did not reply to my original informal appeal they instead sent the Notice to Owner on the 15/11/11. I haven't got a scanner. But its a standard letter I think that I was parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours on 5/08/11 at 14:19.
the penalty charge has not been paid so the penalty charge is £110. There hadn't been a response to my informal appeal. If it hasn't been paid in 28 days it will increase etc etc etc...

And I have written about the council reply to my telephone call in my 1st posting.

I am the registered keeper.
Neil B
QUOTE (SDSTERN @ Fri, 18 Nov 2011 - 19:23) *
Dear Simon Stern,

Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN): AG60008597
Date of service of this notice: 18/11/2011



You don't need a scanner to post docs. Any camera will do it.

The problem we frequently see with people not doing so is the mistakes they make in trying to supposedly type out the text.

The bit in red above will NOT be on that rejection.

(I hope I don't have to eat my hat - but fairly confident)

So -- ALL docs please.

---------------

--- and what was your last comment about a ''telephone call''???
SDSTERN
Actually the "bit in red" is part of the email letter that I copied and pasted to this thread. I only paraphrased the NTO.

I phoned the council on the 15th and their response was the email letter above mentioned. They located my original informal appeal sent on 11/8/11(again copied and pasted in my 1st post).
Neil B
Ok chomp, chomp, lol.

but I can't think why they would use such a phrase on any response -- ah! maybe to highlight instantly delivered e-mail and in connection with the re-offer of discount and deadline.

c&p necessity also now understood.

Who is this exactly?

Note HCA has given you a useful starting point.
hcandersen
What the h**l is this then?

Dear Simon Stern,

Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN): AG60008597
Date of service of this notice: 18/11/2011

Thank you for your letter which was received on regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice which was issued on 05/08/2011 14:19:30 at 14:19 to CV04LFN on MANOR PARK CRESCENT for the contravention Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

I have considered everything in your letter but I do not feel that you have made grounds for cancelling the Notice and as such payment remains due.

I have rejected your reasons for cancellation because the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed the vehicle parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The restrictions are marked by a yellow line and are operational from the hours indicated on the time plate.


Looks like a reply to your informals to me.

HCA
SDSTERN
I never said they didn't reply....

They didn't reply to my original informal.

they sent the NTO and when I queried this I then got the above reply to informal
SDSTERN
What I'm trying to find out is whether I can claim unloading because my car had to be viewed and there was no other parking spaces or have the council got me on this and I just pay up...?
clark_kent
QUOTE (SDSTERN @ Fri, 18 Nov 2011 - 22:19) *
What I'm trying to find out is whether I can claim unloading because my car had to be viewed and there was no other parking spaces or have the council got me on this and I just pay up...?



How is showing someone your car and licence possibly going to be considered as loading?
SchoolRunMum
As MSE is better at helping people ignore private parking charge notices, I sent this poster here from MSE (I am Coupon-mad over there).

Sorry if I was wrong but he has quoted me, this is what I thought:


"The Council have issued an NtO stating the full penalty amount, then later/now, responded to the driver's informal appeal and re-offered the discount. That situation has been seen before and IMHO completely confuses the appeal procedure - how can he Owner know which amount is correct and how can the Owner know he/she still has to FORMALLY appeal?

I think you may have a case to say 'procedural impropriety' now - but get some top advice on pepipoo asap."


My reasoning was, he sends an informal, they ignore it, they send an NtO for the full amount of the penalty, then a few days later when prompted, they reply very late to the informal appeal, re-offering the discounted penalty. Sure we have seen this recently in a case and there's procedural impropriety in there?

Anyone agree and can help the OP know how to formally appeal this now?
hcandersen
All that's being asked of the OP is whether the council was asking two different people for two different penalties at the same time.

The two people:

The person who submitted the informal reps, probably the driver;
The person who received the NTO: the registered keeper.

Whether they are the same physical person matters not, they're not the same legal entity.

So, did the person who submitted the informal receive any reply at any time - yes or no?

If yes, how, and what was the date on this communication?

What did this reply say regarding the penalty charge?

What was the date of the NTO?

What did it say about the penalty charge?

HCA

SDSTERN
The registered keeper was the driver: myself.

The informal appeal was made on 11/08/11 by email, pasted in my 1st posting.

There was no response from the council.

On 16/11/11 I received the NTO dated 15/11/11 requesting the full non discounted charge £110. I have 28 days to pay.

I contacted on 16/11/11 the council who then replied to the informal.

The response to informal was received by email dated 16/11/11 BUT strangely: "Date of Service of this Notice 18/11/11".
Perhaps this is to give time for me to visit my email.



Email: parking@barnet.gov.uk
Fax: 0870 889 6796
Date: 16/11/2011
Our ref: AG60008597
Your ref: CV04LFN

Dear Simon Stern,

Traffic Management Act 2004
Penalty Charge Notice (PCN): AG60008597
Date of service of this notice: 18/11/2011

Thank you for your letter which was received on regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice which was issued on 05/08/2011 14:19:30 at 14:19 to CV04LFN on MANOR PARK CRESCENT for the contravention Parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

I have considered everything in your letter but I do not feel that you have made grounds for cancelling the Notice and as such payment remains due.

I have rejected your reasons for cancellation because the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO) observed the vehicle parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours. The restrictions are marked by a yellow line and are operational from the hours indicated on the time plate.

I note your comments regarding your reasons for parking in contravention however alternative parking could have been found in the vicinity. I must inform you that it is the driver’s responsibility to check the restrictions that apply to the location you park in. Parking on a restricted street is an instant contravention and therefore I am unable to cancel your PCN.

Because you wrote to us during the period when you could have paid the Notice at the reduced amount, you can still pay the reduced amount of £55.00, if the payment is received by this office before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of service of this letter.

If you want to pay, please see the How to Pay section at the end of this letter. If you decide to make a formal appeal, you must not pay the notice, but wait for a Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle. At this point, you may not be able to pay the reduced amount.

If you do not pay the reduced amount before the end of the 14 day period mentioned above or pay the full amount of £110.00 before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the Notice, whichever is later, then we will issue a Notice to Owner to the registered keeper of the vehicle. Formal representations against the Notice may be made at that stage and the procedure for doing so and the grounds for making a formal representation will be explained on the Notice to Owner.


Yours sincerely,

K. Layne

Parking Service





I will take a photo of NTO and post it shortly


Many thanks for your all help.

Simon.


SchoolRunMum
So you - as the owner - responded to the NtO with a confused phone call.

In response, they then emailed you - as the driver - a late response to your old informal appeal. It seems to me that the email is only a rejection of the driver's informal appeal and mentioned 'when the NTO arrives' - but they KNOW you, the owner, already have an NTO stating the full amount is payable.

So how on earth are you to know how much is really payable and what to do next? You could be forgiven for thinking that's your formal rejection, since they have sent a rejection after an NtO. But in fact you still have to formally appeal. They have made things as clear as mud.
SDSTERN
So unwittingly the council are letting me off the hook by "procedural impropriety"?

What's my next step...wait for the next/new NTO and then wait for adjudication and claim Procedural Impropriety?

I tried to upload a photo from my pics of NTO but I must be doing something wrong although the file appears in the upload button.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (SDSTERN @ Sat, 19 Nov 2011 - 13:23) *
So unwittingly the council are letting me off the hook by "procedural impropriety"?

What's my next step...wait for the next/new NTO and then wait for adjudication and claim Procedural Impropriety?

I tried to upload a photo from my pics of NTO but I must be doing something wrong although the file appears in the upload button.






I am glad you said that because it proves my point that they have completely misled you!

There will not be another NtO. You have your NtO, but you can be forgiven for not knowing that due to their subsequent email.
Neil B
QUOTE (SDSTERN @ Sat, 19 Nov 2011 - 13:23) *
So unwittingly the council are letting me off the hook by "procedural impropriety"?

What's my next step...wait for the next/new NTO and then wait for adjudication and claim Procedural Impropriety?

I tried to upload a photo from my pics of NTO but I must be doing something wrong although the file appears in the upload button.


Don't upload. See FAQs 'Read this first'.

You now say you phoned 16/11 but earlier said 15/11. Which was it cos there is something else significant here.
hcandersen
Forget your phone call (and why you posted again that you didn't receive a reply to your informal when clearly you did is beyond me!).

You submitted an informal challenge on ***** to which you received a response by email on **** informing you (as driver) that the penalty charge due was **** and could be paid up to and including 1 December, this being the last day of the period of 14 days beginning on the date of service of their response to your challenge which was stated in the email as 18 Nov, albeit that this was included in an email dated 16 Nov.

At the same time you were in receipt of a NTO dated 15 Nov. stating that, as the owner, you were liable for the unpaid penalty charge which was stated as **** and which was due from the date of service of the NTO which was 16th Nov.

The council was therefore requiring payment of £*** or £****, either of which would discharge your liability in this matter.

You are making formal reps on the basis of procedural impropriety;

1. Under regulation 4 (4) (e) of the Appeals Regs which provides grounds of representation where:
(e)that the penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case

Clearly the penalty charge in the Notice to Owner exceeded the amount applicable as it was stated as £**** when the council's email confirms that the amount due was the lower amount of £*****.

2. If the council do not accept (1) above, then the procedural impropriety is that the council have failed to give proper consideration to your challenge and misinformed you in their response as to the penalty charge due.

Hugs and kisses....

Plus other posters' points.

HCA

SDSTERN
Dear HCA,

I did get a reply to the informal but only after my "prompt", a telephone call, as recognized by SCHOOLRUNMUM.

I made the telephone call after receiving NTO on the 16/11/11, 3 months after my informal.

I am grateful for all your helping hands to save me £££.

I have tried to understand the legal terminologies and I believe my course of action should be to contact the council by email and claim procedural impropriety on the basis of 2 payments due. One payment from the original PCN and one from the NTO.

If I were to sit and do nothing surely then another NTO, relating to the rejection of the informal, will be forthcoming. Therefore I should now write claiming procedural impropriety???

I hope I have understood correctly.

In my letter I will include the regulation(4)(e) of the appeals regs.

Simon.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (SDSTERN @ Sun, 20 Nov 2011 - 12:36) *
Dear HCA,

I did get a reply to the informal but only after my "prompt", a telephone call, as recognized by SCHOOLRUNMUM.

I made the telephone call after receiving NTO on the 16/11/11, 3 months after my informal.

I am grateful for all your helping hands to save me £££.

I have tried to understand the legal terminologies and I believe my course of action should be to contact the council by email and claim procedural impropriety on the basis of 2 payments due. One payment from the original PCN and one from the NTO.

If I were to sit and do nothing surely then another NTO, relating to the rejection of the informal, will be forthcoming. Therefore I should now write claiming procedural impropriety???

I hope I have understood correctly.

In my letter I will include the regulation(4)(e) of the appeals regs.

Simon.





No, they cannot and will not issue another NtO but the fact you still think that's what will happen proves you have been misled by their back-to-front responses.

In fact if I were you I would include your confusion in your formal appeal, make it come across in your own words.

Make your case about 'procedural impropriety' and proceed as explained by HCA re 'the penalty charge exceeds the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case' and add in that the current position has been that you did not even realise that you would not be getting another NtO. State that the email - which is the latest communication - was sent by the Council to you in the full knowledge that you already had your NtO, but that it appears to be a template as it tells you to 'wait for a Notice to Owner to be sent'.

Say that you are not even sure that this formal representation is needed at this point as you were waiting for another NtO, exactly as instructed. But you have been advised to make a formal appeal and been told by others who have dealt with parking tickets before, that there will be no other NtO and that no response from you would have meant the case would have gone to enforcement. Say you had no idea that you could not just wait for another NtO - and clearly there has been a procedural impropriety which has severely prejudiced your chances of properly understanding the appeals process.

And finish by saying you will have no hesitiation in proceeding to adjudication if they do not cancel the PCN.

Type up a draft of how you want to word your formal appeal - including what others have told you - and post it here.
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