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fox10
Dear all

I have just found this forum and wish I had found it sooner sad.gif Hindsight is a wonderful think however If someone could help me now I would be grateful! Its quite a long story so I'll start from the top:

On the 10th of June 2011 my car was parked outside my mums driveway in the London Borough of Redbridge (LBR) in its usual place on the road but with two wheels slightly on the kerb so not only traffic can pass but also wheel chairs and prams etc. It is small Close with narrow roads, no yellow lines or parking boxes and ever since the houses have been built (1985) people have parked with one or more wheels on the kerb. I have been parking like this for the last 15 years and my folks for as long as I can remember. However on this day (the first time ever) the LBR decided to enforce the London wide 'Parked with one more wheels on or over the footpath....' contravention. They did this by sending one of their Smart cars with the CCTV camera on top and subsequently I received ( as well as some of the neighbours) a PCN on the 20th June 2011.

Now the PCN had been sent to my old address which the new tenants kindly forwarded on to me. As soon as I realised I contacted the DVLA and got them to change the address on my cars V5 to my current address. Anyway as you can imagine I was very upset because I had been visiting my mums and it was the last place I would expect to receive a parking ticket. So I appealed on a number of grounds (five in fact), I also mentioned my current address and send it recorded delivery which they received on the 12th of July 2011. I waited for a reply and received none until the tenants at my old address forwarded to me on the 3rd of October 2011 (because of being away overseas) a notice of rejection of representation (NRR) dated the 13th August 2011 and a charge certificate (CC) notice dated the 15th of September 2011. Now initially the fine was £55 (if paid within 28 days) rising to £110 and on the issue of a charge certificate this was increased still further to £165. As angry as I was I phoned LBR and pointed out to them that I had only just received the NRR and CC as I mentioned I no longer lived at that address. They said that they only send letters and notices to the original address the PCN was issued to and despite my complaints and protests they said that I could no longer appeal further and I had to pay. The manager said that she could do me a big favour and remove the CC surcharge, and all I had to pay is £110 within 7 days. I was still not happy with this and informed her that I will be writing a formal letter to them. This I did dated the 5th of October 2011 stating that I hadn't received the NRR and CC in time and also enclosing a cheque for £55 as I had by this time had enough. I also mentioned my current address AGAIN. However they replied back to my old address dated the 11th of October 2011 (received on the 13th October 2011) rejecting my letter of protest and giving me a further 7 days to pay the fine of £110. After thinking about it for a few days I just gave in and paid £110 online (Redbridge website) on the 19th of October 2011. At this point I thought the matter was closed but to my horror! angry.gif yesterday the tenants at my old address passed on to me an order for recovery of unpaid penalty charge notice for the further outstanding amount of £62.00 and form TE9. Deadline 1st of December 2011.

I phoned LBR today and after 30 mins of jostling they refused to withdraw the notice saying ~I was late but I said I received their last letter on the 13th of October 2011 which was sent to the old address and paid within seven days - on the 19th but they want more excl.gif I am beginning to wonder whether this is really about parking law enforcement or revenue generation. On every notice or letter I had received from them it states that one should pay within...'the date this letter was served (the date it was delivered) - NRR' or ...'pay it within 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice was served on you' - CC etc; I have read that Under the Department for Transport’s ‘Operational Guidance', section 11.8 states that "Authorities should ensure that the date of service of a notice or a Charge Certificate shall, unless the contrary is proved, be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting". Furthermore what about counting non working days, any advice would be most welcome, Thanks.



Enceladus
You are a bit unclear.

Are we dealing with just the one PCN?
Assuming yes; are you saying that you sent a cheque for £55 with your "protest" letter of the 5th Oct?
The Council responded by letter dated the 11th Oct and you then made an online payment of £110 on the 19th?
What made you believe that the cheque had not been, or would not be, cashed?

I think you should post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of everything you have to do with this. Including the text of any emails.
Scrubbed = obscure or erase your personal info such as name & address, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave visible any dates, times, location or Council info.

You will need to host the images externally and cut and paste the links into your posts. Info on host and post etc is to be found in the site FAQ section.

Let's start with the letter from the Council dated the 11th Oct 2011.
Coyltonian
Although it isn't fully clear what has happened here, the gist seems to be that they sent their rejection to an address which you had advised them was no longer your current address. They have failed to acknowledge this and have therefore have not issued the rejection to you within the statutory timeframe, or advised you of your right to appeal to the adjudicator. The PCN should be cancelled and all monies refunded.

The difficulty now though would be get things back on track as by not appealing to the adjudicator the normal pathways have been closed. There is a way to reset this though. I'm sure someone will be able to fill you in on the details of this.

Also by writting to an address they have been told is no longer correct the council may be in breach of some offences under the data protection act. This would by definition make their behaviour wholly unreasonable and hence make them liable for costs should you get back onto the appeals pathway and reach adjudication.
fox10
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Hi all

Thank you for all your replies....

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 00:18) *
You are a bit unclear.

Are we dealing with just the one PCN?


Yes.

QUOTE
Assuming yes; are you saying that you sent a cheque for £55 with your "protest" letter of the 5th Oct?


Yes.

QUOTE
The Council responded by letter dated the 11th Oct and you then made an online payment of £110 on the 19th?
What made you believe that the cheque had not been, or would not be, cashed?


They returned the cheque with the letter on the 11th of October.

QUOTE
I think you should post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of everything you have to do with this. Including the text of any emails.
Scrubbed = obscure or erase your personal info such as name & address, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave visible any dates, times, location or Council info.

You will need to host the images externally and cut and paste the links into your posts. Info on host and post etc is to be found in the site FAQ section.

Let's start with the letter from the Council dated the 11th Oct 2011.


Done, please see attached.

hcandersen
Not quite as you've posted - you were not overseas, your tenants were. But let's put that to one side.

IMO there is only one issue here and one which cannot be answered because you've not posted the key evidence.

Did the council comply with their mandatory requirement under regulation 5 (2) (b) of the Appeals Regs:

QUOTE
Duty of enforcement authority to which representations are made

5.—(1) The enforcement authority may disregard any representations which are received by it after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the relevant notice to owner was served.

(2) Where representations are made to an enforcement authority by virtue of regulation 4(1) and in accordance with regulation 4(2), it shall subject to paragraph (1) be the duty of the enforcement authority—

(a)to consider the representations and any supporting evidence which the person making them provides; and

(b)within the period of 56 days beginning with the date on which the representations were served on it, to serve on that person notice of its decision as to whether or not it accepts that—

(i)one or more of the grounds specified in regulation 4(4) applies; or

(ii)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the notice to owner should be cancelled and any sum paid in respect of it should be refunded.


So, what's service?

This is given in the General Regs:

QUOTE
Service by post

3.—(1) Subject to paragraph (5), any notice (except a penalty charge notice served under regulation 9) or charge certificate under these Regulations —

(a)may be served by first class (but not second class) post; and

(b)where the person on whom it is to be served is a body corporate, is duly served if it is sent by first class post to the secretary or clerk of that body.

(2) Service of a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted shall, unless the contrary is proved, be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.


As you can see, service is NOT whether what they send finally gets to you, it's a legal term which requires the notice to have been "properly addressed".

Depending on exactly what you said about your address for service in your reps, you could argue and tick in the Order for Recovery that the NOR was NOT served. I won't post the other regs because this post will get too long. Suffice to say that if the council did not "properly address" their NOR then this is deemed to be a ground under which you may submit a Witness Statement.

As you have to sign a declaration in the Witness Statement, I suggest you post the letter in which you advised the council of your address for service first and ASP.

HCA
fox10
Thanks for the reply HCA

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 08:01) *
Not quite as you've posted - you were not overseas, your tenants were. But let's put that to one side.


Yes thats true - when I posted it last night I was about to nod off! biggrin.gif^_^

QUOTE
IMO there is only one issue here and one which cannot be answered because you've not posted the key evidence.


Is that my current address which I have scrubbed off or my original appeal letter?

QUOTE
As you can see, service is NOT whether what they send finally gets to you, it's a legal term which requires the notice to have been "properly addressed".

Depending on exactly what you said about your address for service in your reps, you could argue and tick in the Order for Recovery that the NOR was NOT served. I won't post the other regs because this post will get too long. Suffice to say that if the council did not "properly address" their NOR then this is deemed to be a ground under which you may submit an Order for Recovery.

As you have to sign a declaration in the OfR, I suggest you post the letter in which you advised the council of your address for service first and ASP.

HCA


I agree I think LBR are being totally unreasonable, unfair and vindictive. I have paid the full £110 despite them sending all letters and notices to my old address ! From what I have read here and elsewhere may be I shouldn't have given in so easily anyway in my original appeal letter my current address was on the first page of the letter and later on the 4th of October I spoke to an operator and the CCTV parking manager at LBR and again pointed out that I no longer live at that address and that was why I hadn't received their reply or CC in time. The manager said that apparently they only have to serve letters and notices to the address they obtain from the DVLA at the time of the offence! excl.gif talk about no common sense! However she accepted my reasons in a way and gave me 7 days to pay £110 insetad of £165 on the CC. I wasn't happy with that so I put it in a letter (attached above) with a copy of my V5 (current address on it) and sent a cheque for £55 which they returned back accompanied by their letter of the 11th October. I even spoke to an operator yesterday (for 30mins) and repeated that they had sent it all to the wrong address but they were having none of it. (Rant over)

HCA which letter do you want me to post? and whats an ASP?
Neil B
QUOTE (fox10 @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 10:33) *
Thanks for the reply HCA

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 08:01) *
Not quite as you've posted - you were not overseas, your tenants were. But let's put that to one side.


Yes thats true - when I posted it last night I was about to nod off! biggrin.gif^_^

QUOTE
IMO there is only one issue here and one which cannot be answered because you've not posted the key evidence.


Is that my current address which I have scrubbed off or my original appeal letter?


That's what he's talking about but not what he (and we) want to see. That is -- your letter advising your correct address, presumably your representations.
Enceladus
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 00:18) *
I think you should post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of everything you have to do with this. Including the text of any emails.
Scrubbed = obscure or erase your personal info such as name & address, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave visible any dates, times, location or Council info.

fox10
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 10:52) *
That's what he's talking about but not what he (and we) want to see. That is -- your letter advising your correct address, presumably your representations.


Cheers Neil.

I can put up my initial representation up tonight but I have uploaded a copy of my last letter to them on the 5th of October stating quite clearly that they have been sending it all to my old address and I spoke to them twice on the phone about my address. I have dates/time and names of the manager and operators I spoke to...

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 11:02) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 00:18) *
I think you should post up scrubbed scans of all sides of all pages of everything you have to do with this. Including the text of any emails.
Scrubbed = obscure or erase your personal info such as name & address, PCN number and vehicle reg. Please leave visible any dates, times, location or Council info.



Will do tonight as am at work at the mo...cheers
Neil B
QUOTE (fox10 @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 11:15) *
I can put up my initial representation up tonight but I have uploaded a copy of my last letter to them on the 5th of October stating quite clearly that they have been sending it all to my old address


I know you've already said you'll post it up tonight but ------ as your thread progresses can I recommend you don't make the mistake again of telling us what we need

Three of us asked the same thing and you respond with that????

------

Ok, deep breath Neil --- chillllllllllll! wink.gif
fox10
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (fox10 @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 11:15) *
I can put up my initial representation up tonight but I have uploaded a copy of my last letter to them on the 5th of October stating quite clearly that they have been sending it all to my old address


I know you've already said you'll post it up tonight but ------ as your thread progresses can I recommend you don't make the mistake again of telling us what we need

Three of us asked the same thing and you respond with that????

------

Ok, deep breath Neil --- chillllllllllll! wink.gif


Hi Neil

Sorry, if it came accross like that but I wasn't trying to tell anyone what they needed. I will post the rest all of it up when I get home.

Thanks
Enceladus
As I understand you. You sent a copy of your V5C enclosed with a letter in July.

Recorded delivery shows the Council received this letter on the 12th?
When exactly did you inform the DVLA of the change of address?
What is the issue date on the V5C?
fox10
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 16:11) *
As I understand you. You sent a copy of your V5C enclosed with a letter in July.

Recorded delivery shows the Council received this letter on the 12th?
When exactly did you inform the DVLA of the change of address?
What is the issue date on the V5C?


Nope I sent a copy of the V5C with the letter I sent in October. Not with my initial appeal letter. V5C date of issue was the 12/07/2011 and I informed the DVLA as soon as I realised after I got the PCN in the post.

Please see attached original PCN and my reply.
hcandersen
Were the words "My current address here:" actually in the letter or have you added these for our benefit?

AIUI, your change of address was not included within the body of your representations.


HCA
fox10
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 15 Nov 2011 - 18:12) *
Were the words "My current address here:" actually in the letter or have you added these for our benefit?

AIUI, your change of address was not included within the body of your representations.


HCA


Yes, it wasn't in the main body of this letter but was at the top of the letter and on the back of the envelope (sent recorded).

What options do I have now? - do I have any grounds to fight at least this additional £65? requested on the OfR. As I have already paid the requested amount of £110 within seven days of receipt of their October the 11th letter, I don't want to pay them any more...
hcandersen
I'll ask the question again:

Were the actual words "My current address is here:" where you've put them in your post or did you just have your current address and have added the words "My current address is here:" for our benefit?

HCA
fox10
HCA, no the large arrow and the text "My current address is here:" was not in the appeal letter - I've just highlighted it now for the post to show where I put my current address...



Coyltonian
RE: my earlier post about data protection:

Schedule 1, part 1, section 4

Personal data shall be accurate and, where necessary, kept up to date.

Obv the council could argue that they hadn't been notified of a change of address, or that the adressee/owner was still contactable at that address, but as they had recieved correspondence from the owner with a different address they should have, at the minimum either contacted the owner to confirm the alternate address provided or checked with the DVLA to see if the owners details had changed. As a consequence they have failed to serve their rejection notification within the timeframe allowed and the the PCN should have been cancelled and any monies paid refunded. As someone pointed out previously a notice being served is conditional on it being properly addressed.
Enceladus
You made reps in July and these were delivered on the 12th. You have a recorded delivery receipt.
The reps quoted the new address.
Your V5C was also issued on the 12th July. So if the Council had re-checked the RK details the new address would have been returned.

The Council responded with an NOR dated the 13th August.
The NOR was sent to the old address.
The 13th August was a Saturday. So I have some difficulty believing that the NOR really was created on the 13th, or that the letter was actually posted on the 13th.

By responding to the reps the Council has accepted that the person from whom they originated was entitled to make representations against the NTO. Therefore they had a duty to consider them properly and that must include checking and updating the address if required. So they failed to properly consider your reps.

And in addition they were required to serve a response on you within 56 days. The 56 days expired COB Mon 5th Sept. And I would argue that they did not serve the NOR, since they sent the letter to the out of date address. Yes the letter eventually reached you, but it was to all intents and purposes useless at that point. Since the NOR was not served on you within 56 days, the Council is deemed to have accepted your representations.

The issue of whether or not payment was made in time is also in play. The letter from the Council dated the 11th Oct gives the OP 7 days to pay the full rate of £110. But it does not define the start and end dates for the 7 days period. So I think the OP is entitled to assume that the Council letter has been served on him in line with the rules for other documents. So it was deemed served on Thurs the 13th Oct. His deadline to pay was Wed 19th Oct. And the OP claims that he did indeed pay online on the 19th Oct.

So I would be making a case along those lines to the adjudicator. And I would hope that (s)he cancels the PCN. However how do we get your case to the adjudicator? If you wait for the OfR and complete the witness statement, the Council can either drop the case or refer to the adjudicator for direction. Since the Council already has your cash I am not sure that they will be obliged to repay it. So I can see them dropping the case on the grounds that the Penalty Charge was paid and you never get to the adjudicator.

What to do about it? Not sure!
hcandersen
Agreed.

IMO, your line of attack is the service of the NOR and therefore it would be useful if you would consolidate all issues relating to your address in a single post. And please, please, do not elaborate just tell it to us as it was.


HCA
fox10
Excellent thank you for your replies, it has opened my eyes to a certain extent.

I never conisdered the Data Protection angle and I should have may be mentioned it in my letter in October anyway. I found the following on the LBR website regarding data protection:

"Before you share data you should take steps to check its accuracy.
After the information has been shared it can be difficult to have it
amended, so you should do as much as you can prior to disclosure.
The steps you take should depend on the nature of the data
involved. If you are sharing sensitive data and any inaccuracy would
potentially harm the data subject, you will need to take extra care
to ensure that the information is correct."
pg 28 Governance, Data Sharing code of Practice ICO May 2011

Also I found out this on the London Councils Code of Practice on Civil Parking and Traffic Enforcement:

STATUTORY REPRESENTATIONS
186) The people considering statutory representations should be independent of PCN issuing staff and the
function of considering these representations must not be contracted out. There are statutory grounds for
representations that can be made to an authority. Authorities are not constrained to these grounds and
may exercise discretion as to whether or not to cancel PCNs on other grounds and it is important that
authorities exercise their discretionary powers responsibly and reasonably. If the authority rejects their
representations, the motorist may appeal to the adjudicator. Representations should only be accepted in
writing, in order to avoid confusion, and should contain the name, address and signature of the person
making them. pg 28

RESULTS OF REPRESENTATIONS
195) If representations against an NtO are accepted the authority should cancel either the PCN and the NtO or
just the NtO (depending on the category of the grounds of representation), and inform the person who
made the representations in writing.
196) If representations are not accepted the authority must issue a "notice of rejection" which must:
a) state the reason for rejection, dealing with and answering all points raised in the representations
and providing a clear explanation for the decision;
b) state that a Charge Certificate may be issued unless either payment is received within a further 28
days or an appeal is made to an adjudicator;
c) advise of the form in which an appeal to the adjudicator should take; and
d) indicate the nature of the adjudicator's power to award costs against either party to an appeal.
It must be remembered that the Notice of Rejection is a letter explaining that representations have not
been accepted and should not be, or appear to be, in any way be bullying or threatening.

I am thinking of giving LBR a call and request they cancel the OfR on the grounds mentioned? I don't know if I can get my money back but if I can avoid the extra £62 I will be happy and leave it at that or should I just fill in the witness statement TE9 in the hope that it will go to adjudication, will they also accept an acompanying letter....if so which box shall I tick on the form?
Enceladus
I suggest that phoning the Council is a waste of time and money. Written communication only.

I suggest you submit the TE9. You should only tick one box. But whether it should be;
"I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice."
or
"The penalty charge has been paid in full."
I am not certain.

I want you to tick the option that is most likely to get your case to the adjudicator. I think that on balance it should be the made reps and no response box.

What date is on the Order for Recovery?
hcandersen
If you complete the TE9 in time then it's not a case of "hoping" for anything, it is automatic and mandatory - on submission of a properly completed WS the court WILL cancel the CC and OfR and, in the case of the ground of did not receive a NOR, the council is required to remit the case to adjudication.

Forget data protection - it's a red herring at this stage. You might want to use this in your appeal, but you've got to re-engage with the appeals process first and the only route available to you is to submit the WS. The court is NOT interested in the merits of your case - cancellation of the OfR and CC are purely procedural.

If you feel you can, submit the WS and, with respect, stop getting sidetracked.


HCA
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 16 Nov 2011 - 11:55) *
the council is required to remit the case to adjudication.

Or drop the case.

And they could drop the case on the grounds that the PCN has been paid. Or no grounds at all.

I suggest that the OP does not want them do to do that. Let the adjudicator determine the NOR / address issue, cancel the PCN and get the payment refunded.
fox10
So do I tick the box:

"I did not receive the notice to owner or PCN"
Or

"I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice."

The one thing I am worried about is that I have acknowledged receiving these in my letters albeit late...and I don't want to be prosecuted for contempt of court.

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 16 Nov 2011 - 11:38) *
What date is on the Order for Recovery?


01/12/2011 please see OfR attached in earlier post, yesterday.
Enceladus
Where did the idea of NTO not received come from?
Please forget that!
You case is that you did get the NTO and you responded to it as required.
The Council in turn failed to respond to you.
and
Then mislead you into paying up.

Have a read of everything that has been said and make sure you understand the arguments. Post back if you have any doubts.

Only tick one box. "I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice."

However I suggest you wait until we have finished the debate.
fox10
Just out of interest, what will happen if I tick:

"The penalty charge has been paid in full." ?
Enceladus
I think you legitimately can. And I explained why in post #19 above.

However I don't think you should. As I can see that the Council might just opt to accept. That would be case closed. I don't see that the Council would be obliged to refund the money already paid and you would have no recourse to the adjudicator.

So on balance I vote for the no response to reps option. In theory this gets the case before the adjudicator. And the adjudicator can make a determination and you might get your money refunded.

It is a gamble. No results guaranteed. Except that you won't be worse off than you are now, £110 paid and £62 due. So you might as well have a go.

See what others have to say before you make a decision.
hcandersen
As you can only tick one box, that doesn't arise, does it?


QUOTE
(2) The witness statement must state one and only one of the following—

(a)that the person making it did not receive the notice to owner in question;

(b)that he made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations but did not receive from that authority a notice of rejection in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;

©that he appealed to an adjudicator under regulation 7 of those Regulations against the rejection by the enforcement authority of representations made by him under regulation 4 of those Regulations but—

(i)he had no response to the appeal;

(ii)the appeal had not been determined by the time that the charge certificate had been served; or

(iii)the appeal was determined in his favour; or

(d)that he has paid the penalty charge to which the charge certificate relates.



HCA
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 16 Nov 2011 - 21:08) *
As you can only tick one box, that doesn't arise, does it?


QUOTE
(2) The witness statement must state one and only one of the following—

(a)that the person making it did not receive the notice to owner in question;

(b)that he made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations but did not receive from that authority a notice of rejection in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations;

©that he appealed to an adjudicator under regulation 7 of those Regulations against the rejection by the enforcement authority of representations made by him under regulation 4 of those Regulations but—

(i)he had no response to the appeal;

(ii)the appeal had not been determined by the time that the charge certificate had been served; or

(iii)the appeal was determined in his favour; or

(d)that he has paid the penalty charge to which the charge certificate relates.



HCA

I suggest that he can. See post #19 above. Only one option can be ticked. But the OP would seem to have a choice of two.
bama
I wouldn't tick the "penalty has been paid in full"
council will jump though that wide open door

and they will with the usual b/s of LAs 'deem' it is acceptance of liability.
it is no such thing IMO see "When the FAQ is a PCN payable" in the FAQ section.
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...icle&id=178
hcandersen
We risk confusing the OP whose only priority is to re-engage with the appeals process and IMO should absolutely tick the box did not receive reply to representations.

I don't see how you can tick "paid the penalty charge" because at no stage did you.

According to you, your only payments were:

A cheque for £55 on 5 October;
An online payment of £110 on 19 Oct.

However, there was a PCN/NTO dated before 20 June stating that the penalty charge was £110 unless paid within the discount period - so you didn't pay this;
And a CC dated 15 Sept increasing the penalty charge to £165, so you didn't pay this either.

You have no grounds on which to challenge the original PCN because you had not advised DVLA, and in order for your payment of £110 to be the full penalty the CC needs to be cancelled. And you cannot do this other than by submitting the WS. So IMO the answer to this "chicken and egg" conundrum is clearly the chicken of council did not serve me with notice of its response to my formal reps.

Also, AIUI, if you claim to have paid the penalty after submitting reps then this has the effect of relieving the authority of having to respond to your reps and therefore those grounds disappear.

But play it your way - you're the one who has to make the declaration. And the longer we debate this, the more chance that you'll miss this deadline.


HCA
Enceladus
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 17 Nov 2011 - 07:22) *
We risk confusing the OP whose only priority is to re-engage with the appeals process and IMO should absolutely tick the box did not receive reply to representations.

I don't see how you can tick "paid the penalty charge" because at no stage did you.

According to you, your only payments were:

A cheque for £55 on 5 October;
An online payment of £110 on 19 Oct.

However, there was a PCN/NTO dated before 20 June stating that the penalty charge was £110 unless paid within the discount period - so you didn't pay this;
And a CC dated 15 Sept increasing the penalty charge to £165, so you didn't pay this either.

You have no grounds on which to challenge the original PCN because you had not advised DVLA, and in order for your payment of £110 to be the full penalty the CC needs to be cancelled. And you cannot do this other than by submitting the WS. So IMO the answer to this "chicken and egg" conundrum is clearly the chicken of council did not serve me with notice of its response to my formal reps.

Also, AIUI, if you claim to have paid the penalty after submitting reps then this has the effect of relieving the authority of having to respond to your reps and therefore those grounds disappear.

But play it your way - you're the one who has to make the declaration. And the longer we debate this, the more chance that you'll miss this deadline.


HCA

QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 16 Nov 2011 - 03:12) *
The issue of whether or not payment was made in time is also in play. The letter from the Council dated the 11th Oct gives the OP 7 days to pay the full rate of £110. But it does not define the start and end dates for the 7 days period. So I think the OP is entitled to assume that the Council letter has been served on him in line with the rules for other documents. So it was deemed served on Thurs the 13th Oct. His deadline to pay was Wed 19th Oct. And the OP claims that he did indeed pay online on the 19th Oct.

However I am still of the opinion that he can legitimately tick the no response to reps box. And that is what he should do.
fox10
Right, I think that's settled then I am going to tick "I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice."


I will let you know what they say...I have a feeling Redbridge will claim that I have received a rejection notice and will refer to my letter of the 5th October, their word against mine - will it still go to an adjudicator?
Enceladus
QUOTE (fox10 @ Thu, 17 Nov 2011 - 23:14) *
Right, I think that's settled then I am going to tick "I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice."


I will let you know what they say...I have a feeling Redbridge will claim that I have received a rejection notice and will refer to my letter of the 5th October, their word against mine - will it still go to an adjudicator?

No! The NOR is the letter dated the 13th August. Please re-read post #19 above and make sure you understand the point.

By their actions the Council have accepted that you had a de facto right to make representations. Therefore they had a duty to correct the out of date address, you had provided the correct address on your letter of representations. If the Council wish to assert that you had no right to make the reps then they should have either written back, to the correct address, to say so or ignored your letter.

The objective is to get the case before the adjudicator. You can't end up enough worse off than you are now, £110 paid and £62 due. So you might as well.
fox10
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 18 Nov 2011 - 09:31) *
Please re-read post #19 above and make sure you understand the point.

By their actions the Council have accepted that you had a de facto right to make representations. Therefore they had a duty to correct the out of date address, you had provided the correct address on your letter of representations. If the Council wish to assert that you had no right to make the reps then they should have either written back, to the correct address, to say so or ignored your letter.

The objective is to get the case before the adjudicator. You can't end up enough worse off than you are now, £110 paid and £62 due. So you might as well.


I have read all the posts inc #19 and I understand and agree with the points mentioned therein. So what can I expect to receive in terms of a response once they have received my witness statement and when?
Enceladus
So long as you submit the witness statement in time then you should get a letter from the TEC at Northampton County Court about three weeks later telling you that that the Order for Recovery and the Charge Certificate have been cancelled.

The Council is supposed to then forward the case to the adjudicator for direction on how to proceed. Or the Council can opt to drop the case. You want the case to go to the adjudicator. The adjudicator can then determine if the NOR was valid or not, or if your £110 payment was in time or not. You should receive a letter from the Adjudicator inviting you to make a submission. Not sure when that will be, at least three weeks I suspect.

In theory the Council can object to, and likely will do, to the TEC cancelling the OfR and the CC.
fox10
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 18 Nov 2011 - 10:56) *
In theory the Council can object to, and likely will do, to the TEC cancelling the OfR and the CC.



Sorry, so if the council objects to the TEC cancelling the OfR and the CC will it go to an adjudicator automatically or what?
Enceladus
QUOTE (fox10 @ Fri, 18 Nov 2011 - 14:26) *
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Fri, 18 Nov 2011 - 10:56) *
In theory the Council can object to, and likely will do, to the TEC cancelling the OfR and the CC.



Sorry, so if the council objects to the TEC cancelling the OfR and the CC will it go to an adjudicator automatically or what?

If you tick the box and submit the statement within time then the TEC is supposed to issue a court order cancelling the OFR and CC.
and
The Council is then supposed to send everything to the Adjudicator and ask for direction on how to proceed.

Even then they could decide to cease enforcing the PCN. If they do that then the case will not go to the Adjudicator and you would have to seek a refund directly from the Council. And they have a cast iron reason to refuse; ie. you paid the PCN and the case is officially closed.

The Adjudicator will normally invite submissions from both sides and make a ruling.

So you want your case before the adjudicator.
As I see it;
The Adjudicator will accept your reasons for the NOR not being served on you,
or
will determine that the NOR has been served on you out of time, as a result your reps are deemed to have been accepted,
or
will determine that the PCN has already been paid in full.

The best case is that the Adjudicator will order that the PCN be cancelled.
The worst case is that (s)he decides none of the above applies and you will have to pay up. However that is still the same amount they want now. So you are no worse off and potentially a £110 better off.

Be aware that in that in theory the Council could apply to the County Court for a review of the TEC decision to make the order. However that is extremely remote and if they did, as I see it, you have a very good justification for ticking the box as you did. IMHO the judge would have to refuse the application as it is up to the Adjudicator to decide.

Tick the box that says "I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice." Submit the TE9. Please make sure it is in time.

Post up scrubbed scans of whatever comes back.
hcandersen
AIUI, the law is clear:
Invalid notices

23.—(1) This regulation applies where—

(a)a county court makes an order under regulation 22; the OfR

(b)the person against whom it is made makes a witness statement complying with paragraph (2); and

©that statement is served on the county court which made the order, before the end of—

(i)the period of 21 days beginning with the date on which notice of the county court’s order is served on him; this'll be you or

(ii)such longer period as may be allowed under paragraph (4).

(2) The witness statement must state one and only one of the following—


(b)that he made representations to the enforcement authority under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations but did not receive from that authority a notice of rejection in accordance with regulation 6 of those Regulations; you


(5) Where a witness statement is served under paragraph (1)©— that's you

(a)the order of the court shall be deemed to have been revoked;

(b)the charge certificate shall be deemed to have been cancelled; not, let's see what the council thinks. IMO, as per a famous sketch about a the health of a bird, the council don't enter into it

The council will be informed that the OfR and CC have been cancelled. The council may dispute this WITH THE ADJ because this is the only forum prescribed for this, TEC is merely a debt registration and enforcement agency.

HCA
fox10
Form dispatched recorded delivery, will let you know what they say. rolleyes.gif Many thanks.
fox10
Hi

I have just received a reply from Nottingham - see attached...
hcandersen
Pretty straightforward in the event, as forecast. But that's because we know how it works but we do not underestimate the angst that OPs suffer when faced with this problem for the first time. Phase 1 is now over and the onus lies with the council, let's see what they decide to do.

HCA
Enceladus
That was quick!
(I know that this was an "in time" witness statement.)

Watch out for a letter from the Adjudicator (PATAS) inviting you to make a submission etc. Please post it up in good time when you receive it.

You need to get your arguments well tuned on your submission, so there is no room for doubt with the Adjudicator as to what you mean and what has happened.
In fact you could prepare a draft now and post it up for review. I think it is unlikely that the Council will opt to cancel the PCN at this stage.

Also post back if you get anything else from the Council, such as another Charge Certificate or NTO.
fox10
QUOTE (Enceladus @ Wed, 30 Nov 2011 - 03:04) *
That was quick!
(I know that this was an "in time" witness statement.)

Watch out for a letter from the Adjudicator (PATAS) inviting you to make a submission etc. Please post it up in good time when you receive it.

You need to get your arguments well tuned on your submission, so there is no room for doubt with the Adjudicator as to what you mean and what has happened.
In fact you could prepare a draft now and post it up for review. I think it is unlikely that the Council will opt to cancel the PCN at this stage.

Also post back if you get anything else from the Council, such as another Charge Certificate or NTO.



Thanks, will post it up as soon as I receive anything. If LBR are going toe continue to pursue I hope they send it to my current address - I did fill in the witness statement with my current address and received their reply okay. I have a feeling LBR will just drop it...
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