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tyuio
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? - Surrey Police
Date of the offence: - 27/09/11
Date of the NIP: - 11/11/11
Date you received the NIP: - 12/11/11
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A3 (N) ESHER BYPASS, CLAYGATE
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - I am the registered owner and keeper
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I don't recall using the car on the date of the alleged offence but nor do I recall who else may have been using the car on that day. The NIP says that I was travelling at 91 mph in a 50 mph zone contrary to section S84 RTRA 84 Sch 2 RTOA 88 & Local Order

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:36:57 +0000
Logician
Try again, using the button for additional questions. Do complete this line : Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible and say what aspect you would like advice about.
tyuio
QUOTE (Logician @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 19:38) *
Try again, using the button for additional questions. Do complete this line : Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible and say what aspect you would like advice about.



Apologies for the lack of clarity before. I did input all the additional questions data a few times via editing and hopefully it can now be seen.

With regard to what happened, I've been over my records but do not recall using the vehicle in question on that day so cannot even be certain whether I was the driver. It is a stretch of road I use frequently however and I always ensure that I am under the speed limit for the fixed camera there.

I've noticed that there has been a well hidden traffic police van in the shadows of the bridge a few hundred yards after the fixed camera, presumably to catch drivers out who return to a sensible speed after the fixed camera, but whenever I have seen it traffic has been heavy and there is no way anyone could have been travelling above 50mph, let alone the 91mph the NIP says is the alleged speed.

The salient point though appears to be that the alleged offence took place on 27/09/11 at 11:33hrs and the NIP is dated 11 November 2011 - 45 days after the alleged offence. I'm not sure how to respond to the Section 172 information request as I cannot recall using the vehcile on that date, nor letting friends or family use it on that date. I was the keeper, owner and main driver on the date and have been for years (at the same address) prior to the alleged offence, so presumably there is no reason why the NIP should be issued so far beyond the 14 days normally given.

I'd appreciate advice on how to respond to the Section 172 and on how to respond to the alleged offence. Thanks also for your patience with the pre-edited post.

Aretnap
QUOTE (tyuio @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 19:36) *
Date of the offence: - 27/09/11
Date of the NIP: - 11/11/11
Date you received the NIP: - 12/11/11

It would be unusual for the police to make a mistake as elementary as not sending the first NIP until a month and a half after the offence, so I suspect that there is more here than meets the eye. Does the NIP give any indication that it is a reminder? Did you buy the car recently, or have you recently changed address? What if the date after the Doc Ref on page 2 of your registration document?

QUOTE
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I don't recall using the car on the date of the alleged offence but nor do I recall who else may have been using the car on that day. The NIP says that I was travelling at 91 mph in a 50 mph zone contrary to section S84 RTRA 84 Sch 2 RTOA 88 & Local Order

If you don't name the driver the onus will be on you to show that you could not have done so with reasonable diligence; otherwise you would get 6 points and a large fine (which admittedly might be less than the penalty for doing 91 in a 50). "I can't remember" is unlikely to be good enough by itself. Who else could have been driving? Have you looked back through Emails, work diaries, mobile phone calls, credit card statements to see if they offer any clues as to what you were doing on the day in question? Is it a road you drive regularly?
Aretnap
Sorry - cross posted. I see you answered some of my questions whiloe I was typing them.

Your first priority is to identify the driver: if/when he or she is identified then he/she may be able to challenge the speeding charge on the lateness of the NIP, though I still suspect that there's more to its lateness than meets the eye.

Of course there's a possibility that it was not your car involved and that the numberplate was misread. We often get cases where people have received NIPs for offences hundreds of miles away in a town they've never been to. It would be a coincidence for it to happen on a road you often drive on yourself, but not an impossible one.

You can ask the force for photographs to help identify the driver. The police aren't obliged to send them, but usually will if you don't use words like proof or evidence, or otherwise suggest that you're trying to pick holes in the evidence. A camera van will often take a clear enough photo to identify the driver, and even if it didn't, the picture will at least let you confirm whether it was your car. Asking for photos doesn't stop the clock. You must still send a more substantive reply within 28 days whether they send the photos or not.

If you can't identify the driver then in order to have a fighting chance of defending the inevitable s172 charge you would have to send the police a letter giving them all the information you can - names of possible drivers, and an outline of what you've done to try to identify the actual driver and why it didn't work.

tyuio
QUOTE
It would be unusual for the police to make a mistake as elementary as not sending the first NIP until a month and a half after the offence, so I suspect that there is more here than meets the eye. Does the NIP give any indication that it is a reminder? Did you buy the car recently, or have you recently changed address? What if the date after the Doc Ref on page 2 of your registration document?


NIP states "I hereby give notice", doesn't refer to any previous correspondence and is the first I have heard of it so it is definitely not a reminder.

I have owned the vehicle and resided at this address for years so there will have been no trouble trying to reach me. The only dates mentioned on the document are the date of the alleged offence (27/09/11 at 11:33hrs - repeated on page 2) and the date of the NIP (11/11/11 - also repeated on page 2).


QUOTE
If you don't name the driver the onus will be on you to show that you could not have done so with reasonable diligence; otherwise you would get 6 points and a large fine (which admittedly might be less than the penalty for doing 91 in a 50). "I can't remember" is unlikely to be good enough by itself. Who else could have been driving? Have you looked back through Emails, work diaries, mobile phone calls, credit card statements to see if they offer any clues as to what you were doing on the day in question? Is it a road you drive regularly?



I can investigate the driver a bit more thoroughly with a little more time to do so but it is not a time of day that I travel, although I do use that route regularly. I will do a more thorough investigation to see what I can come up with for the Section 172.

I'd appreciate advice on how best to respond to the offence and the Section 172 request. Apologies if I haven't provided sufficient information, please let me know if anything further would be useful so I can provide it.

Looks like I have cross-posted aswell, apologies!

Assuming the NIP is 45 days late should I handle that separately to the Section 172 or will one response suffice? Either way, what would you advise as a response to the offence?

I will investigate the driver at the time thoroughly and see if I can pin down who was driving once I have checked everything more thoroughly. Thanks for the advice on that.
southpaw82
This could be a reminder - you simply might not have received the first one for whatever reason. You could call the police up and ask if this is a reminder, as it is so far out of date.
tyuio
It is definitely not a reminder, but thanks for the warning. This is the first letter they've written and the language makes that overwhelmingly clear. It doesn't refer to any previous correspondence. It states that I have 28 days from the date of this letter (11/11/11) to respond to the Seection 172. It was just sent 45 days afte rthe alleged offence. It seems like an elementary error.
southpaw82
QUOTE (tyuio @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 20:41) *
It is definitely not a reminder, but thanks for the warning. This is the first letter they've written and the language makes that overwhelmingly clear. It doesn't refer to any previous correspondence. It states that I have 28 days from the date of this letter (11/11/11) to respond to the Seection 172. It was just sent 45 days afte rthe alleged offence. It seems like an elementary error.


With respect, you're assuming it's not a reminder. It might be, it might not. How do you know they didn't send out a previous NIP (which you didn't get) and have not sent out another? They don't have to say it's a reminder.
tyuio
Point taken. With that in mind is the recommended course of action still that I contact Surrey Police and ask them why they sent the NIP 45 days after the alleged offence? Or bearing in mind that it certainly doesn't look like a reminder, doesn't refer to previous correspondence, states that I have 28 days from the date of this letter to respond to the Sction 172 and so on, would it not be more effective to simply send a letter to Surrey Police saying that the NIP was sent 45 days after the alleged offence and has therefore expired?
southpaw82
I don't think asking them why it is late is advisable. Simply state the fact that it is out of time and see what they say. It helps if you can name the driver as well, otherwise you're heading to court on the s. 172 charge.
tyuio
Okay, I'll do as you suggest and write to them pointing out that the offence is out of time once I've either figured out who was driving or can give them evidence to demonstrate that I've done my best to figure out who was driving. Is there a link to the template letter anywhere on the site? Thanks again for your help, folks.
southpaw82
The link is in your first post.
Aretnap
While the Notice of Intended Prosecution and the s172 requirement are combined into a single sheet of paper they are legally two different documents, and only the NIP has to be served within 14 days. So the fact that the NIP is late doesn't invalidate the s172 request. You still commit a s172 offence if you don't name the driver within 28 days, unless the reasonable diligence defence applies. If you can show that the NIP was late it would offer a defence to the speeding charge if someone is identified as the driver and charged with speeding. It wouldn't automatically offer a defence to a s172 charge if you didn't name the driver, though it might help in that "I can't remember who was driving" is more credible 45 days after the incident than a couple of days after it.

(Damn, cross posted again. Must type more quickly - or waffle less)
Kickaha
The 172 request is seperate from the speeding allegation, and as such you can be charged with failing to furnish the driver information even if the speeding charge cannot be persued due to the lateness of the NIP.

It is in your best interests to ID the driver if this is the first NIP.
tyuio
Thanks again. This is indeed the first NIP, so I will send separate responses to the charge and to the S 172 request. I'll use the template Southpaw82 pointed me towards for the charge and investigate more thoroughly to find out about the driver at the time.
southpaw82
QUOTE (tyuio @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 21:16) *
This is indeed the first NIP


rolleyes.gif
tyuio
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 21:26) *
QUOTE (tyuio @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 21:16) *
This is indeed the first NIP


rolleyes.gif


That I am aware of! wink.gif
southpaw82
I thought you meant that...
Logician
QUOTE (tyuio @ Sat, 12 Nov 2011 - 21:16) *
Thanks again. This is indeed the first NIP, so I will send separate responses to the charge and to the S 172 request. I'll use the template Southpaw82 pointed me towards for the charge and investigate more thoroughly to find out about the driver at the time.

I would amend that template to your own circumstances, you have not contacted the RAC. And change "police person". Template letters do not create a good impression so personalisation is a good idea.
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