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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Jimmmy
Hello, I revieved a NIP for a speeding offence, I recently wrote in requesting the photographs, according to Royal Mail they've had the letter for over a week now and the 28 days is running out fast. I'm considering phoning tomorrow to enquirer as to where they are is this a good idea?

Thank you.
jobo
you have to return within 28 days no matter what

yes ringing them up isnt a bad idea

how did you phrase your letter ? and use of words like proof or evidence tends to get their back up
Jimmmy
Thanks for the quick reply, looking back now I have slightly phrased the letter incorrectly as I wrote asking for the "Photographic and Speed Detection device evidence" as stated on the NIP. There were def 2 drivers possibly 3 of the vehicle around the time stated on the NIP.

Is it possible they could send the photographs via asking for the photos to "identify the driver" over the phone?

Looking at the copy of the letter now I haven't made it clear as they're to identify the driver although that's what the original intention was, have I made a big mistake?

Thank you!
jobo
they are getting increasingly reluctant to send them no matter what you say, but yes saying evidence seems to p them off

try it, nice and friendly, hi ive got a problem wonder if you could send them please

what is the nature of your ID problem
Jimmmy
Thanks for the quick reply Jobo, I shall give them a call tomorrow and ask kindly for the photographs to be posted for identification of the driver.

Sorry is this a question or a "role play" of the conversation
QUOTE
"what is the nature of your ID problem"


I shall post back here tomorrow with the conclusion of the phone call.
Thanks again.

jobo
when i rang them once, they wouldn't send them, but described the driver to me, a bald bloke with glasses

no , its a real question, unless it was a forward facing camera, its very unlikely to id the driver anyway, so you need to be getting your head around what you need to do to id driver, if they dont come or dont id the driver
Jimmmy
Thanks for the quick reply, after returning to the site, the camera is a Gatso camera facing forwards (taking photos of the rear of vehicles)

So can we ask for a description of the driver over the phone? That should solve the problem!


Thanks again Jobo.
jobo
no not if it rear facing, the best you will get is a shadowy blob, if the driver has an afro you might have a chance

again what is the problem with iding the driver and other than the pics, ?
jimster
It may be that the photos will not help ID the driver... you should be looking at all other ways of finding out who was driving at the time, there is a possible 6 points plus a hefty fine riding on this.

Jobo has asked you twice to explain why there is a problem ID'ing the driver...
The guys here will give you good advice, but you need to give them something to work with.
Jimmmy
Sorry I didn't realize I wasn't answering your question. There were multiple return journeys in the space of 1 hour along that road by two drivers in the direction stated on the NIP which is why there is some confusion.

Thanks
Kickaha
The obvious question is do none of the drivers remember a bl00dy big (double) flash?
jimster
Jimmmy, are you one of the possible drivers?

Were you in the vehicle at the time? .... as Kickaha says, what about the flash?

All drivers insured I assume
Jimmmy
All drivers are insured including myself and none of us remember a flash. Shall wait to see what the outcome from tomorrows phone-call is.
mrh3369
I suggest that if you didn't see a flash then it was probably the other driver. Failure to reply could cost £500 and 6 points as failure to furnish is a very very difficult charge to defend as the level if diligence required is quite high. It can be done but not at all easily.
Kickaha
The problem is that too many people have gone before the court with exactly the same story as yours* and they are pretty fed up with it by now - you would be much better off avoiding that situation.

* I am in no way implying that you are not telling the truth, just stating that you will be facing a very sceptical bench if it goes that far.
Jimmmy
QUOTE (Kickaha @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 21:33) *
The problem is that too many people have gone before the court with exactly the same story as yours* and they are pretty fed up with it by now - you would be much better off avoiding that situation.

* I am in no way implying that you are not telling the truth, just stating that you will be facing a very sceptical bench if it goes that far.


Requesting the photographs or a description of the driver via telephone shouldn't effect the court case should it? ohmy.gif

Or are you implying if the case went to court with no driver admitting to it?

Thanks for your reply.
jobo
if you dont name a driver, the onus will be heavily on you to show that you couldnt do so,

Aretnap
If you don't name the driver you will almost certainly be summonsed to court. You will then have to convince a sceptical bench of magistrates that you did everything you reasonably could to identify the driver, and were still unable to. Thus is not impossible but it isn't easy either, and the penalty for failure is high - as well as the obvious fine and points, an MS90 code on your licence will make insurance companies wonder what you did which was so terrible that 6 points and £500 was a better option than owning up to it, and increase your premium accordingly.

Asking for photos is just one box to be ticked. What else have you done to work out who was driving?

Without wishing to cast any aspersions on your honesty, it may be prudent to point out that many people think that telling a story like yours is an easy way to get off speeding tickets. They often find out with a nasty shock that it isn't.

If the speed is not too far over the limit the driver will generally be offered a speed awareness course (about £80 and no points) or a fixed penalty (£60 and 3 points) so the pragmatic thing to do in these circumstances is often to take your best guess at who was driving.
Kickaha
On re-reading this thread I think we have not fully explained the situation to you, so here are the possibilities:

1) If you cannot or do not name the driver then you will most likely be summonsed for failing to furnish the drivers identity, this is particularly difficult to defend because (as stated by all of us) the courts are often of the opinion that this is just a ruse to avoid the original charge. If convicted of this you can expect a fine of around £500, 6 points and very bad insurance quotes.

2) You name the driver and the receive either an offer of a speed awareness course, a fixed penalty of £60 + 3 points, or a summons to court - this will depend on the speed alleged.

As you can see, option 2 is far more acceptable (depending on the speed alleged).

Therefore the advice is to name the driver within the 28 days, so you need to do everything you can to ID the driver (phone records, receipts, time of offence - anything you can think of).

If you still do not know who the driver was then the best option may be to name the most likely driver based on the balance of probabilities having done all of the above, the alternative being to document ALL your efforts and try to defend the FTF charge.

One note of warning, if you do name the driver then do so clearly and unequivocally. Some forum members have come unstuck by saying something like "I do not know who was driving but I will take the blame".
Jimmmy
After a large conversation we have concluded as to who was driving, if photographic evidence backs that up fantastic! Thanks for all your help Pepipoo users! It is now 2:07am goodnight!
mrh3369
Which driver was it?
Jimmmy
Hello, after requesting the photographs from the Gatsometer camera we received a letter this morning in the post with all the correct details, address, name of the registered owner, car registration and the alleged speed as originally stated on the NIP but,

The photos show in both frame 1 and frame 2 a Blue Nissan, when we drive a silver Peugeot 206, is it possible someone has cloned plates? as the plates are not clear in the photographs, I can scan the document if that's of any benefit

"This matter has been suspended for 14 days from the date of this letter for the driver details to be provided"

Please help!



Thanks in advance.
bossjohnc
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=66215
Jimmmy
QUOTE (bossjohnc @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 12:50) *


I understand I posted we came to a conclusion as to whome was driving but this was only our best guess. If you recall I posted about how no-one remembers a flash. Maybe this is why?
Aretnap
Two possibilities: A completely different car triggered the speed camera and its numberplate has been misread, or your car did trigger it, and the police have sent you the wrong photo by mistake.

If it's the former then you should have no trouble getting this dropped. If it's the latter then the mistake doesn't provide you with a legal defence, but there's still a chance of getting it dropped if you play your cards right and have a bit of luck.

You say the numberplate isn't clear - does it look like it's similar to yours?
mrh3369
You should have posted this on your other thread as there is a strict one case one thread site policy. Get in touch with the SCP asap pointing out that its not your vehicle , not even the right make model or clour, it could be as simple as somebody misreading a plate or it be cloned.
Jimmmy
QUOTE (Aretnap @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 12:58) *
Two possibilities: A completely different car triggered the speed camera and its numberplate has been misread, or your car did trigger it, and the police have sent you the wrong photo by mistake.

If it's the former then you should have no trouble getting this dropped. If it's the latter then the mistake doesn't provide you with a legal defence, but there's still a chance of getting it dropped if you play your cards right and have a bit of luck.

You say the numberplate isn't clear - does it look like it's similar to yours?




QUOTE (mrh3369 @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 12:58) *
You should have posted this on your other thread as there is a strict one case one thread site policy. Get in touch with the SCP asap pointing out that its not your vehicle , not even the right make model or clour, it could be as simple as somebody misreading a plate or it be cloned.



Thank you for both of your replies, how would I go about having this case dropped? The car is not ours, a different color, make and model. In writing I presume, any advice on this would be much appreciated.

Thanks again.

PS: Sorry for starting a new thread! sad.gif
glasgow_bhoy
As Artenap already said- is the number plate any resemblance to yours? If so, I reckon thats the answer- the scameratti have read the plate wrong, or your car has been cloned. If not, then my monies on the wrong photo being sent to you.
Jimmmy
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 13:14) *
As Artenap already said- is the number plate any resemblance to yours? If so, I reckon thats the answer- the scameratti have read the plate wrong, or your car has been cloned. If not, then my monies on the wrong photo being sent to you.


I can make out the letter "N" on the number-plate at the start which is not the start of our vehicle. Do we still have a case on insufficient "evidence" ??
BaggieBoy
Just contact them, stating that the VRM they are quoting is on silver Peugeot and the vehicle in the photographs clearly isn't a silver Peugeot.
jobo
its more likely they have sent the wrong picture ? this could be usfull to you down the line if you contested the speeding and they were to produce the same picture in court

but at thisw stage your priority is to id the driver, so i would reluctantly ring them and ask them to confirm the reg no on the car pictured
sgtdixie
Jobo is right. If you do nothing and this goes to court, as it will, there is a slim chance that the file will contain the wrong photo. If this happens you should not be convicted.

The problem is this pre supposes that the SCP's mistake is not corrected. This does happen but rarely as they are a very sleek money making operation.

I would consider a cloned vehicle even less likely. Cloned vehicles almost never occur in the same area as the original and normally relate to either similar make and models or high value vehicles.

It would also be a staggering coincidence that the camera took a photograph of a cloned car at a time & place where you readily admit you were (albeit several times over the period).

Eliminate all complex throries and you are left with they sent the wrong photo. On your prevous thread you asked for evidence and had to get in to a dialogue to get the photos. I suggest as others have said that you contact them.
CuriousOrange
It might be helpful if you upload the photos.

Do the date, time and (from the look of it) the location on the actual photos (if there) marry up in any way with what you were being asked about?




justforthepictures
QUOTE (Jimmmy @ Mon, 14 Nov 2011 - 12:43) *
..........as the plates are not clear in the photographs, I can scan the document if that's of any benefit

Without reading every reply, how close is the VRM in the photo to your's?
desktop_demon
QUOTE
I can make out the letter "N" on the number-plate at the start which is not the start of our vehicle

Anything to help an "old codger" out..... rolleyes.gif
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