Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: FPN for failing to comply with no-left-turn sign - endorsable?!
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4
X-treem
Not a parking ticket for a change, this time it's a police FPN for failing to comply with a no-left-turn sign. I was stopped by three hobby bobbies on foot specifically watching for people turning left at this junction, apparently because a lot of people do it. In fact, the female special that wrote out my ticket barely had a clue what she was doing, the guy had to help her out filling the form, and the whole thing took about 45 minutes.

They've slapped me with a £60 fine and 3 points. However, from reading here and here, I'm not too sure if it's actually endorsable. There seems to be some discussion on contravening a no-left-turn sign being non-endorsable, but confusion over whether this is still the case if the traffic light shows a green ahead-only arrow. Although here seems to state that a green filter arrow on a traffic light is endorsable. The junction I turned left at was from Pentonville Road (east) onto Upper Street (A1), right next to Angel Station. There are signs indicating no left turn and the green traffic light is an ahead-only arrow; and there isn't a no-entry sign at the entrance to Upper Street as traffic is allowed to enter from other directions. This is the sign leading to the junction:


This is the green traffic lights showing the ahead-only arrow:


This shows the junction and the entrance to Upper Street - no no-entry sign:



And this is the FPN:


Could anyone please shed some light on what my legal position is here? Where is the actual legislation? And what if I'm not sure that the light was on green - it may have been on red, which means I jumped a red light, in which case the FPN code is wrong wink.gif

Even so, does the green filter arrow even matter here because the FPN states a specific offence code of 169 - failure to comply with a sign. Can this even apply to a green filter arrow on a traffic light? Where can I see the list of offence codes in any case?

Any help greatly appreciated.
jobo
im pretty sure that endorsable, the difference being its a traffic light signal youve disobeyed
johnjo42
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 14:39) *
im pretty sure that endorsable, the difference being its a traffic light signal youve disobeyed

On first reading, I'm not convinced that this is right. It is an offence to cross the stop line against a red traffic light but no offence is committed if there is a green filter arrow and the person crosses the line in the direction indicated by the arrow.

If it were an offence to fail to comply with the green arrow, there would be no need for the no left turn signal at all. I would thus argue that the green arrow in this situation is informatory, not mandatory. It is the no left turn sign which is mandatory.

Assuming that the light was green, there was no red light against the driver at all. Thus, the offence would be failing to comply with the no left turn sign which, in the absence of a no entry sign in the road he turned into, is not endorseable.
jobo
QUOTE (johnjo42 @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 13:57) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 14:39) *
im pretty sure that endorsable, the difference being its a traffic light signal youve disobeyed

On first reading, I'm not convinced that this is right. It is an offence to cross the stop line against a red traffic light but no offence is committed if there is a green filter arrow and the person crosses the line in the direction indicated by the arrow.

If it were an offence to fail to comply with the green arrow, there would be no need for the no left turn signal at all. I would thus argue that the green arrow in this situation is informatory, not mandatory. It is the no left turn sign which is mandatory.

Assuming that the light was green, there was no red light against the driver at all. Thus, the offence would be failing to comply with the no left turn sign which, in the absence of a no entry sign in the road he turned into, is not endorseable.


i hope you are right, but we have been through this before where i was arguing your point and had to concede i was wrong, eventually
X-treem
johnjo42, I'd love to agree with you on this and for you to be right, but I need to be devil's advocate against my own case for a second. This post here specifically says contravention of a green filter arrow at a traffic light is endorsable.

However, like you said, it could just be informatory in this case, to tell traffic to go ahead. The no-left-turn sign has to be there for a reason. But, also, there are road markings in the road saying 'AHEAD ONLY', so it's clear that the green filter arrow must mean ahead only, too - no left or right turn in other words.

Would really like legislative clarification on this. And what about the code used on the FPN '169' and the stated contravention. What does this code mean, and the contravention stated is to do with a sign, not a traffic light?
CuriousOrange
The code would be force dependent.

QUOTE (johnjo42 @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 13:57) *
It is an offence to cross the stop line against a red traffic light but no offence is committed if there is a green filter arrow and the person crosses the line in the direction indicated by the arrow.
TSRGD says "may proceed beyond the stop line only in the direction indicated by the arrow for the purpose of proceeding in that direction through the junction controlled by those signals."



QUOTE (johnjo42 @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 13:57) *
If it were an offence to fail to comply with the green arrow, there would be no need for the no left turn signal at all. I would thus argue that the green arrow in this situation is informatory, not mandatory. It is the no left turn sign which is mandatory.
I'd say it was the other way around. Would those no-turn signs on a green junction sign even be enforceable alone?
X-treem
So, it seems I might be buggered then as far as the green filter arrow on the traffic light goes.

How do I find the FPN codes for the Met Police then? I can't seem to find them on Google. But, it seems this may be my only line of attack.
jobo
the offence codes will make no differance
CuriousOrange
This is all a bit different to the way things work with parking tickets. Wordings and suchlike on these FPNs aren't quite as critical.

You've surrendered your licence it looks like, so you've now just two options:

1) Pay the £60 within the 28 days and hope, though it's extremely unlikely, that when your licence comes back it has no points added, or

2) Tell them within the 28 days that you want to go to court and wait for the summons which would be all but inevitable.

If you do neither, they automatically endorse your licence anyway and then up the amount you have to pay them for the trouble.

If it goes to court you're basically gambling on them getting it wrong somehow. I can imagine lots of permutations that I can't bother to list, but worst case for you (and most likely, in my opinion) is still three points but a noticeably larger fine. Best case is no points, no fine.

So a lot of it comes down to how much money you've got to gamble with.

QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 15:29) *
the offence codes will make no differance
I wondered if there's maybe a teeny-tiny possibility that if it's the code for disobeying a no-turn sign, learning that means knowing the summons might be for that, so the OP may get a chance to plead guilty for no points or even have a defence on non-compliant signage, without them getting to change the charge to disobeying the red arrow....but to be honest even I think it sounds like I'm making stuff up. Knowing what the code means would certainly not be a line of attack, more just a pointer to what could/might happen.
X-treem
Oh, hang on! Thanks for pointing that out CuriousOrange. This is interesting!! The stupid Special has actually completely fecked up! I didn't surrender my driving license at all! She's crossed out the wrong section and allowed me to sign the section saying I've surrended my license. So, how does this work now?

If I quietly pay the £60 fine, my license may never actually get endorsed. Or, they may request me to send my license in anyway once they realise their mistake (could they even do this?).

Or, I could kick up a big fuss about it, write a letter pointing out their mistake, saying they've messed up and I don't have to surrender my license because of their mistake, and say that it isn't even endorsable anyway because of reasons we've discussed (i.e., no-left-turn sign and the offense code specified - don't even mention the traffic light - whoever deals with this might not even know the junction and will just assume this is a no-left-turn sign contravention and therefore not endorsable). But, then, could they then issue a summons anyway?

Seriously, this Special completely had no clue. She couldn't even spell John o' Groats properly (the place I said I'd surrender my licence).

What to do....
Mattexmo
Also, could you please show us a photo of your car? I have never seen a Cayman's Porche, before. rolleyes.gif
X-treem
Honestly, she was so stupid - it took her an age to write out the ticket and the guy had to guide her every step of the way. She checked my tax disc about five times and she even thought the front number plate was different to the back, to which the guy had to tell her it wasn't. She even had to ask me if it's a manual or an automatic. She tried to be authoritative at one point when I pointed out how stupid it was to ask me the same question multiple times to which she insisted I still had to answer with that typical police stare and lowered voice tone. I said I don't care if she feels I still have to answer, it's still stupid!

These Specials really are jobsworths some of them - I think many do it for the sense of power. However, the third one (another girl who kept quiet most of the time) was one I wouldn't mind having a bit of power over me IYKWIM wink.gif
jdh
QUOTE (Mattexmo @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 16:13) *
Also, could you please show us a photo of your car? I have never seen a Cayman's Porche, before. rolleyes.gif
Only if you go to John O'Groves police station wink.gif
ninjazxrr
Hi Fella,

Maybe I can shed some light on this one for you.

The exact wording for the offence code 169 is "Fail to comply with the direction indicated by a green traffic light arrow" this should have been written in full on your ticket and is an endorsable offence. In a nut shell youv'e been done for turning left against the ahead only green arrow and nothing else.

Unfortunatly they would not have been able to offer you a non endorsable ticket for contravening the no left turn sign as this is now an offence dealt with by the local authority and no police.

Given the appauling state of the ticket I would consider contacting the central ticket office and highlighting the errors as i imagine her evidence is going to be shockingly bad.

Good luck
Ninj
X-treem
Thanks ninjazxrr, that's very helpful. Are you a lurker on here as you don't post often, you've been a member a long time, yet seem to know your stuff?

So, what do you think would be the point in contacting the central ticket office? Would they possibly cancel the FPN on the basis it contains so many errors. Could/Should I suggest this? What about the licence surrendering part? It requires me to take my licence to the station for checking and recording details, but the clerk might think it's odd that I even have my licence if I supposedly surrended it at the roadside and may seize it anyway. In fact, these two aspects of the FPN completely conflict, so what am I supposed to do? Flag up the errors and kindly correct them for her and proceed on the basis of those corrections, or fight to have the ticket voided because it's so riddled with errors?

They asked me a series of questions at the side of the road such as, was I the driver of the car, do I admit to turning left, did I see the sign. I answered yes to everything except seeing the sign. What if I claimed I jumped a red light, or went through on yellow? There is no way they could know that it wasn't on red or yellow when I went over the stop line.
Glacier2
I take it John O' Groats was a wind up?
CuriousOrange
Okay, so if you've still got your licence you're in a different set of circumstances. Different, not better.

If you didn't surrender then what you have is not an FPN but an offer to go and get one from the police station in return for surrendering your licence. I don't have time to explain why, but that's what it is. You apparently have to produce your documents within seven days, but that's a side issue; what you also have to do within seven days (not necessarily at the same time) is surrender (i.e. leave at the police station) your licence if you wish to get an FPN. That would then put you in the position outlined previously.

Or you can not surrender your licence (after producing it) within seven days - it's not obligatory. In that case you don't get an FPN, and then you sit around and wait to see if they serve a summons on you for the offence - there'd be nothing else you could do.

As it is, there's no ticket to cancel currently so I wouldn't bother ringing central office. Nor are there any real errors of note - certainly nothing to dissuade them from taking you to court.

That the wrong bit is crossed out is unlikely to help. There have been protracted arguments here along the lines of trying to pay without giving in your licence but with no real resolution - in court they would be more protracted and ultimately expensive, I'm sure.

You could opt for court and hope that the evidence she (or one of the others) gives is too poor to convict, but it's a long shot. Bearing in mind they were stationed there specifically to catch people doing that. She'll say she saw you turning left after going through that traffic light, so what do you say? Lying would be perjury, even if saying you went through a red or amber would be of help which unless the legal beagles here correct me on I think would result in a guilty just as much.

ninjazxrr
I'm on here pretty much every day but usually just as a guest but this ones really got my back up. I don't profess to be an expert but do know a little bit about road traffic legislation however Iv'e always left the advice to the moderators and more experianced member because their advice is spot on.

This ones tricky as i'm sure you are aware you are banged to rights on this one especially with three coppers having seen you turn left against the green arrow and the only defence I know to this is one being that you were acting upon the direction of a constable. Therefore the easiest way to deal with it is by accepting the 3 points and paying the £60, surrendering your licence and job done.

The requirement to produce at a police station is a seperate offence and despite the officer crossing the wrong box is irrelavent. So my advice is to definatley produce your licence. If you accept the 3 points then surrender your licence at the police station. If you are not accepting the 3 points request a court hearing but still produce at a police station but tell them you are not surrendering it. Oh where is John O Groves?

As for contacting the ticket office its probably not going to do you much good but if you speak to a person explaining the issues and email them a copy of the ticket highlighting all the mistakes they may well cancel it as a gesture of good will due to the quantity of errors and to save any embarresments if the matter was taken to court. Its a long shot but other than accepting the ticket I can't see any way out of it.

Oh and I think clampers/clamping should be outlawed.........................................

CuriousOrange
Oh, and very quickly as far as I can see under S.54 you can only get an FPN (and have the choice of avoiding court) by giving your licence in at the police station specified. So if John O'Groats was a joke it was a dumb one.
CuriousOrange
Okay, I was in a hurry so the above comes over harsher than meant. Try 'potentially foolish' rather than dumb.

I would hope you could hand it in for an FPN anywhere to be honest, but technically the law does say the station you specified. When I had one I remember I'd nominated my home police station, tried to hand it in at my work one and they wouldn't take it. But it was a small station and the reason might have been something to do with it being a civvie on the front desk rather than a constable being available, I forget now...

Point is, you're already on the back foot, relying on them disobeying the rules if you want to avoid court rather than getting it thrown out for some kind of error.

As said, you don't have to get an FPN. If you do get one then it's either pay up and take your points or tell them you go to court. If you don't get an FPN, then you at least get the option instead of doing nothing and hoping they forget or it slips through the cracks. Which does happen, and might be more likely with a special, who knows? The real question is how much money are you prepared to risk.
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (ninjazxrr @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 20:09) *
f you speak to a person explaining the issues and email them a copy of the ticket highlighting all the mistakes they may well cancel it as a gesture of good will due to the quantity of errors and to save any embarresments if the matter was taken to court. Its a long shot but other than accepting the ticket I can't see any way out of it.

Very long. The errors aren't really that embarrassing - misspelling/mishearing John O'Groats, writing CAYMANS PORSCHE instead of PORSCHE CAYMANS (the S has to be next to the Cayman to make it fit) and crossing out the wrong box. And this was someone apparently in training. Given that there have been people on here with FPNs from actual officers with wrong registrations, wrong roads, wrong dates even, and they rarely get anywhere in getting it dropped out of embarrassment, it's not something to get hopes up on.
Mattexmo
QUOTE (jdh @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 16:41) *
QUOTE (Mattexmo @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 16:13) *
Also, could you please show us a photo of your car? I have never seen a Cayman's Porche, before. rolleyes.gif
Only if you go to John O'Groves police station wink.gif


So he gets to take a car that doesn't exist to a police station that doesn't exist? ohmy.gif

Worryingly, Specials are supposed to reach a certain standard before they are allowed out.
captain swoop
But the car does exists just because the model name is in fromt of the make is hardly an error and the PC wrote down what she was told, it's not her fault he played silly buggers by naming a stupid location.

What does he do if tey hold him to taking it to the station he named?
CuriousOrange
Not a lot, as even if they accept it should have been John O'Groats it looks like there isn't a police station there.

As you say, it was playing silly buggers so hardly a starting point to get the whole thing dropped claiming embarrassment on their part. The OP's got to decide pretty quickly if he's going to try and find a police station that don't mind ignoring the rules and turning it into an actual FPN. Personally I think with these kinds of targeted operations the chances of it all getting forgotten if he does nothing are slim.

The OP needs to understand that this is very different to parking tickets and that it's the circumstances around the alleged offence itself and how it gets prosecuted that determine win or lose; an FPN is just a bit of paper that is an option to avoid court, and at the moment he doesn't even have that, just a bit of paper that's an option to get an FPN.







The Rookie
How has he been mislead/disadvantaged/compromised by the very small error in writing the car type? He hasn't, lets not waste any more 'breath' on it.

Simon
Mattexmo
Waste of breath? Well, maybe not.

Because if someone can't be bothered or is not capable of taking down evidence properly, they'd not have a very good time in court.

But anyone who winds up an officer is making themselves a hostage to fortune, IMO.
X-treem
OK, thanks for all the replies - this FPN being not so straight forward appears to have sparked some discussion. Just to clarify, I know most of my posts these days are for parking tickets, but I've had my fair share of other motoring offences over the past 15 years including myriad FPNs for speeding, bald tyres, no seat belt, etc. And countless numbers of producers. It is for this reason I know that the police station you take your documents to doesn't have to be the one you stated for the FPN. Nearly every single FPN I've had, I've ended up going to a different station to the one I stated, purely out of a matter of convenience or change in schedule - I live/work in numerous places. Also, the reason I specified John o' Groats was because the guy Special insisted that I provide a station name even though I said I don't know which it will be due to my busy schedule, but it will definitely be one in the UK - I asked if he could just put that. He said I had to specify one anyway otherwise they can't issue me an FPN and it will go straight to court, but he added that "due to the leniency of the police in this country, we will allow you take it to any police station you like." Sounds fairly definitive to me. So, when I said John o' Groats, the male officer actually laughed and said he liked that - didn't wind him up at all!

As for the mistakes on the FPN, I've dealt with an incorrect date on an FPN for a speeding offence before and took it to court. The police statement for court then had further mistakes saying it was daylight when in fact it was just after midnight. I claimed in court that the officer thought we were in the South Pole where the UK has no jurisdiction and even handed a map of the world to the Magistrates demonstrating that it can only be daylight at ten past midnight in February in the South Pole! I was slammed with a £500 fine and 4 points! So, I appealed to the Crown Court, and it all got reduced back down to £60 and 3 points (as per the initial FPN) due to the mistakes on the original FPN that I could not possibly admit to because the facts stated were not actually true, and the Judge recognised this. It's all right here.

So, on that basis, I do believe mistakes on the FPN have some credence in court because they are statements of fact by the officer that I have to admit to or deny. If they are not true, I have no choice but to deny. With this FPN, if it doesn't ask me to surrender my licence, I don't have to surrender it. I only have to pay £60 according to the FPN.

I am quite happy to allow this to go to court as I am willing to put money into this - what I don't want is the three points. And having appeared in court in the region of 20 - 30 times in my life and it's nearly always gone in my favour, I am confident I may be able to swing it.

From what everyone's saying, it looks like the chances of it just going away if I pay the £60 are slim; so I am thinking at this point, because I don't mind pleading my case in court, and on the basis that a previous FPN I had where the fine and points went up in court but brought back down on appeal due to a single error on the FPN (the date), I should perhaps just pay the £60 (without prejudice and in order to just close off the matter without it going to court) and enclose a really nice and well-written letter highlighting the predicament I am in with regards to the FPN (re surrendering my licence) due to the errors on it, apologise profusely for the alleged contravention (without actually admitting liability), and plead to the goodwill of the central ticket office management.

One question I have - is it possible to get more than three points for this offence should it go to court?
baggins1234
QUOTE (X-treem @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 16:27) *
Honestly, she was so stupid - it took her an age to write out the ticket and the guy had to guide her every step of the way.


You MAY be able to discredit her in Court but the other officer could be more of a challenge.

You perhaps run the risk of upsetting the bench by taking the mickey out of a volunteer.....

My advice...pay it.

The advice on here to run it in Court....all very well but will they be in Court to help pay the fine if you lose. Dont forget it is "means tested" and you may be substantially out of pocket
X-treem
QUOTE (baggins1234 @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 10:46) *
QUOTE (X-treem @ Wed, 9 Nov 2011 - 16:27) *
Honestly, she was so stupid - it took her an age to write out the ticket and the guy had to guide her every step of the way.


You MAY be able to discredit her in Court but the other officer could be more of a challenge.

You perhaps run the risk of upsetting the bench by taking the mickey out of a volunteer.....

My advice...pay it.

The advice on here to run it in Court....all very well but will they be in Court to help pay the fine if you lose. Dont forget it is "means tested" and you may be substantially out of pocket


I should probably also mention that it was only the officer that filled out my PCN that witnessed me making the turning. The other two (the male officer and other female officer) were actually both busy and engaged with two other people who had probably just committed the same offence. They definitely did not see me doing anything and didn't even get involved with me until about 10 minutes after the incident.

As for everything else you said, see my previous post - I wish to pay it accompanied with a letter, but am willing to take my chances in court based on my previous experience with a speeding FPN which had a mistake and where I took the mickey out of a real police officer in court!
baggins1234
It may be that the CTO will decline your kind offer and draw a summons.

Be wary of assumptions that "they definitely didnt see me doing anything"

You wont know that for sure until you enter a not guilty plea and see the evidence bundle.

Also be aware that CCTV footage may be used in the event of a NG plea.

To be honest, having seen many similar things to this in Court, more often that not the defendant ends up losing. However you have had some good fortune in the past so your run may continue..or it may end..

It will depend on the bench on the day....

Up to you....

CuriousOrange
QUOTE (X-treem @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 10:42) *
It is for this reason I know that the police station you take your documents to doesn't have to be the one you stated for the FPN. Nearly every single FPN I've had, I've ended up going to a different station to the one I stated

Okay, then that's the way they're running the system. But technically it shouldn't be:
QUOTE
If a person to whom a notice has been given under subsection (4) above produces the notice together with his licence and its counterpart in person to a constable or authorised person at the police station specified in the notice within seven days after the notice was so given to him and the following requirements are met...the constable or authorised person must give him a fixed penalty notice in respect of the offence to which the notice under subsection (4) above relates.


QUOTE (X-treem @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 10:42) *
So, on that basis, I do believe mistakes on the FPN have some credence in court because they are statements of fact by the officer that I have to admit to or deny. If they are not true, I have no choice but to deny.
So on the basis that for an FPN with the wrong date you got a Crown Court judge who was sympathetic enough to give you the three points and £60 you'd have got if you'd accepted it in the first place, you think you're going to somehow avoid three points for this one based on perceived 'errors'...I don't agree with that logic at all.

QUOTE (X-treem @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 10:42) *
I am quite happy to allow this to go to court as I am willing to put money into this - what I don't want is the three points. And having appeared in court in the region of 20 - 30 times in my life and it's nearly always gone in my favour, I am confident I may be able to swing it.
There's your answer then - if you're not bothered about going to court or paying a larger fine, write your letter, see what happens, then try your hand with a not-guilty in court if it comes to it which it likely will. That's the only chance you've got at not getting three points.
The Rookie
ANDREW MARTIN DROZDOWSKI V DPP "These were not fundamental defects in the sense that they were incapable of correction at the outset of the proceedings. As I have already indicated, in my judgment, the magistrates were entirely right to permit the amendments to be made. I conclude by saying that in my judgment it is a matter of regret that instead of paying £20 the appellant has chosen to occupy the time of three courts to no sensible purpose on this matter."

Mr Justice Sullivan appears not to agree with you!

Simon
Logician
Just paying the £60 is liable to delay the whole process, and they may conclude that your licence has been lost in the system and ask you to get a replacement, or decide that the wrong box was used and you never handed over your licence, which leaves you either lying and saying you did, which is inadvisable, or sending it to them at that stage. What seems unlikely is that they would simply accept the £60 and forgo endorsing your licence for what is stated to be an endorsable offence.

If you go to court, you cannot get more than 3 points for a traffic light offence. I admire your confidence that you can talk your way out of a conviction, but cannot share it. I do not see any basis for a defence, and I think the likely outcome is a fine based on your income and heavy costs (CPS now request costs of £85 for a G plea and £620 after a summary trial for a simple case)
CuriousOrange
By the way,

QUOTE (X-treem @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 10:42) *
I should perhaps just pay the £60 (without prejudice and in order to just close off the matter without it going to court)



- "without prejudice" is for civil matters, not criminal.

X-treem
OK, £620 of costs is not something I'm keen to pay. Maybe if it goes to court, depending on the facts at hand at the time and all the evidence before me, I could then just state a guilty plea in court and suffer just £85 costs. If, after assessing everything at the point it goes to court, things look more in my favour, I might then just go forward and try and fight it.

I don't intend to lie about my licence being surrended at all. But, like I mentioned earlier, I might just pay the £60 and not surrender my licence (as I haven't been required to do so), but be fully forthcoming in my accompanying letter with this insofar as the FPN does not require me to surrender my licence and I am left in a dilemma predicament wondering what to do.

A phone call to the CTO and building some rapport with someone senior there and then sending a letter directly to them appealing to their good nature might cut it for me - I have a way with phone calls and letters, and I have known numerous cases where, if it is possible to cancel something (like a charge or a ticket), then that option will be taken if it is easier as it is reserved for exceptional cases and also those cases where mitigating circumstances could be drawn. The staff concerned will often exercise "artistic licence" in deciding what is exceptional or mitigating if they feel emotionally connected or compassionate towards a particular case. In the business, it's called social engineering - I like to call it just being nice to get one's way. Not a guaranteed method of course, but sometimes the only option where you don't have anything else.
jobo
its just 3 points, its if you want to invest a few hundred quid in it or not, £620 is theoretical rather than likely, as long as you put up a good case.

you can play the game as you describe above to see what happens, try and turn it into in abuse of process case, re being prvented from accepting the fpn over the dl issue
X-treem
3 points will take me halfway to a ban for nearly the next three years, not to mention the impact it might have on my insurance premium.

However, I have just noticed another glaring error. She put completely the wrong street down. She put Islington High Street, and it was nowhere near Islington High Street which is actually about 300 metres away. The street I turned off was Pentonville Road and I turned into Upper Street. Another major error that surely should add further credence to my case.
jobo
we arte going round in circles

A)errors on the fpn re car type location are of no use to you, unless they with draw it in embarrassment, you could try writing to them and pointing these out, hows your luck

B)the issue you have is the one over the DL, and the complex legal point, that they have issued you a fpn rather than a provo fpn, and if you pay up, you have met you obligations and any subsequent court case will be a beech of process

ive no idea if this will be successful, but if you determined to contest it, it at least gives you a fighting chance

nb be aware that complaining as in a might cut the legs of your court case in b
X-treem
Thanks, jobo - this is all good stuff to put in my letter, especially the possible breach of process issue if I meet my obligations as to the FPN and pay the £60 fine, which I could mention in the letter. Words like "breach of process", especially when plausibly backed up, are useful inciters to achieve an aim.

However, I should probably include something about my FPN being a supposed FPN (based on the fact that it states my licence was surrended) and not a "provo FPN". I assume by 'provo' you mean 'provisional' and a provisional FPN is what you would normally take to the police station with your licence to obtain an actual FPN? Is that correct? Putting stuff like this in the letter (worded properly of course) will all be useful stuff.
jobo
i dont think you can do both, you either send a letter pointing out all the defects and hope they with draw it
or
you pay up and prepare for court
X-treem
Logically, the system doesn't allow me to do both, but, realistically, I can do both, and I'm not committing any offence by doing so. And if that messes up the system to the point that they just cancel the FPN, then so be it. Many reprieves are achieved through exploiting loopholes or process errors, and I'll not hold back in exploiting such myself.
CuriousOrange
You're not properly following this.

The pay-up-without-a-licence idea is based on arguing that this is an actual FPN, so waxing lyrical about how it's flawed would be a bad thing. I'm not convinced mind that they can't ever endorse a licence just because they don't physically have it.


And I do still think you're approaching this with too much of a civil-dispute mindset. I can't really see Met Traffic CJU going all quivery at the words 'breach of process'.

If you're paying up, you pay up with no letter. If you're not paying up then there's a letter but no payment.

You can try both if you like, but it'll be your side that's more likely to get into disarray than theirs. They don't have to cancel anything at this stage, they can just take you to court.

jobo
i think any defence in court would need you to have been disadvantaged by the error, telling them in advance that they have made the mistake will then threaten your credibility in court

i would thing hard before doing this
X-treem
I understand what you're saying re pay-with-no-letter (met obligations, hope for breach of process, FPN cancelled) vs. letter-no-payment (hope errors are too embarrassing to proceed to court, FPN cancelled).

However, I still think payment with a very carefully written and worded letter can still have a positive effect in my favour, or at least not have any detrimental effect as long as I don't cut off my legs should it go to court.

But, again, my experience is not limited to just civil disputes and parking tickets in this respect. I have actually managed to get an ABH case dropped by way of a carefully-worded letter even though two police officers witnessed me knock someone out and put him in hospital a few years ago. I was on bail and, after I wrote the letter claiming how mutual the fight was and coming across very well in the letter, the officer in charge of the case called me and said no further action would be taken. So, I don't think processes are constrained to the letter of the law even in criminal cases. Sometimes, human judgment plays a part, too - sometimes to the defendant's detriment, sometimes to their favour.
baggins1234
If you pay, regardless of letter or no letter, the CTO will note the serial number of the ticket on the payment slip. They will then try to marry this up against the receipt of your driving licence. Which they wont be able to do. They will then ask you to send it in or they may issue the summons if you dont

If you dont enclose the payment slip then they will either return the cheque to you and ask you to send the payment slip or possibly proceed to summons as you may be outside the time limit for pavement.

You seem to have confidently put forward many previous examples of your success in both motoring and criminal cases so why do you need advice?

jambmw
I am a Ex-SC but now a reg Sgt in Herts. I have had my fair share of motoring issues hence know what tickets are like when written for me! However, checking and signing off FPN tickets is part of my job as a resposne Sgt for my team.
I have a few SCs that come and they submit their tickets etc etc to me with statements. Based on experience I say the following:
1) Yes - you have committed an endorsable offence - contravening a green arrow signal. Had the green light just been that (ie: no arrow) it would have merely been a £30 fine!!
2) The ticket is shocking. Errors all over. If an officer submtted that to me I would be definately be giving her advice on how to write it properly. We have mentioned already the spelling of stuff and words the wrong way round. This shows a sloppy approach.
3) Following on from this; the ticket indicates you have surrendered your licence at the roadside - even though you have not. Again sloppy on the SCs part
4) Finally and most importantly. I have seen absolutely shocking statements from SCs. Some are excellent and better than PCs but I would argue that as she is new, the statement WILL NOT be top notch and will probably have holes in. I base this on experience but also the errors/sloppy approach that seems to have been taken.

Although I fully support our SCs, this just shows that the training on area is poor!! She would have been better off doing a £30 ticket for no right turn rather than messing up a endorsable ticket - if any at all!! When I was an SC, all I did for my first 10 duties was deal with anti-social youth so I got used to talking to people! Not tickets/arrests/paperwork...anything! Saying all that, there is a junction like the one you got done at on my area....to date I cannot bring myself to give endorsable tickets to people for it!!!

I live round the corner from original junction and it is interesting to say the least!
jobo
he hasnt signed that he has handed his DL in, thats not the nature of the signature on fpn, in fact a signature isnt required at all
jambmw
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 10 Nov 2011 - 16:05) *
he hasnt signed that he has handed his DL in, thats not the nature of the signature on fpn, in fact a signature isnt required at all


Yep, skim reading will get me no where! Thank you!
jobo
do you think they will withdraw the ticket if he complains about its sloppyness, id like to think so
X-treem
Thanks jambmw, good to have an actual police officer's viewpoint! So, to clarify the errors:
  1. The street is wrong - should be Upper Street, not Islington High Street.
  2. The offence description is wrong - should be "Fail to comply with the direction indicated by a green traffic light arrow" (thanks, ninjazxrr).
  3. The vehicle make is wrong - should be 'Porsche' or 'Porsche Cayman[S]', not 'Caymans Porsche'.
  4. The police station given is wrong - should be John o' Groats not John o'Groves, and she should have verified this police station exists perhaps (?), which it doesn't.
  5. The FPN indicates that my licence has been surrended when it in fact hasn't and the details of my licence have not been recorded in the bottom section.
  6. The SC has signed where it says 'Motorist's signature' then scribbled it out and asked me to sign there (which I did).

Something I think is noteworthy on the FPN is where it states "The police will take no further action in respect of this offence provided you pay within 28 days the sum of £60 ..."

This is almost contractual. If I pay £60, surely they cannot then take me to court or demand that I provide my licence when the FPN doesn't ask for it to be surrended in the first place!? This would almost be a mockery of the system, not to mention ignoring my rights. I've met my obligations, they've promised not to take further action should I meet my obligations. Any court not wishing to risk public embarrassment should rule in my favour on this alone, surely.

I'm thinking maybe only write the letter should they respond to my £60 payment unfavourably, say, by asking me to send my licence to them. If they were to proceed this to court, do you think they would give me a chance to send in my licence first thereby giving me a chance to send said letter?

Regardless of all of this, I still have to produce my licence at a station - is there a chance the clerk will seize my licence without my authorisation, or do I have to explicitly agree to its surrender before they take it off me? Or, does it depend on the clerk/clerk's mood at the time!?
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.