johnnybgoode
Thu, 7 Jul 2005 - 20:58
My wife was allegedly speeding in her car. I am answering the questions as if I am she (if that makes sense)
1. Was the offence in England or Scotland - ENGLAND
2. The name of the Constabulary - WARWICKSHIRE
3. Date of the offence - 20/06/2005
4. Date of the NIP - 27/06/2005
5. Date you received the NIP - 30/06/2005
6. Was the NIP addressed to you? - YES
7. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - NORMAL POST (not sure if first or second)
8. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle? YES
9. Do you hold a UK or foreign driving licence. YES
10. How many current points do you have? NONE
11. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons.
DIDN'T KNOW I HAD BEEN FLASHED EVEN THOUGH IT WAS A FORWARD FACING CAMERA
What are the recommended first steps based on current success rates?
johnnybgoode
Fri, 8 Jul 2005 - 23:57
From what I have read so far I have deduced that I can send a PACE statement instead of completing the NIP (as long as I write on the NIP "see attached").
Has anyone failed with this approach yet (i.e. taken to court and lost)?
Secondly, I presume I can still ask for a photo (e.g. unsure who was driving, need to see photo to be sure). What I really want to do is see if any other cars are in the picture as I believe this could make the evidence inadmissable - is this true? It was a static camera.
Does this sound like a sensible starter for ten.
andy_foster
Sat, 9 Jul 2005 - 00:14
If it was a front* facing static camera, it would presumably be a Truvelo.
These work off sensors under the road, and have 3 lines very close together. IIRC, the front wheel should be within those lines on the photo.
If there were 2 lanes in the same direction, and there was another car in the other lane in the photo, it could possibly be argued that there was no independant evidence as to which car activated the camera, other than which car had its front wheels between the lines - which is the secondary evidence.
If you want to ask for a photo to help identify the driver (generally a good idea IMHO), you should do this before submitting a response naming the driver.
[*cameras which face the front of the vehicle are often referred to as forward facing, even though they're facing backward. As such the term can be more than a tad ambiguous and confusing.]
johnnybgoode
Sat, 9 Jul 2005 - 00:17
Thanks Andy,
Your description is accurate. Is there a recommended template for requesting the photo or do I simply ask to see it, prior to completing the form?
andy_foster
Sat, 9 Jul 2005 - 01:08
There might be a template somewhere, but at this stage I wouldn't recommend using a "standard letter" that might flag up the request as being from a "troublemaker".
I'd send something along the lines of:
Dear Sir/Madam,
Ref: NIP ref
Please send me any photos to help me identify the driver of the vehicle.
Yours faithfully
Mrs johnnybgoode
Least said, soonest mended and all that.
johnnybgoode
Sun, 17 Jul 2005 - 21:00
Ok, Mr Policeman has responded informing me that I am not entitled to a photo, but because I asked so nicely he would send it to me anyway!
It might as well be the invisible man driving - it is certainly not clear. What are my next options?
The tyre was between the first two lines in the road (3 lines). Is there anything I should look out for? There was a car going in the other direction, but on the other side of the dual-carriageway.
Do they have to be able to prove that it was my wife or does she need to prove it wasn't her. Neither of us is prepared to lie (both on moral and legal grounds), but as I said before my wife does not remember being flashed and I don't see that we should be expected to incriminate ourselves.
andy_foster
Sun, 17 Jul 2005 - 21:59
QUOTE (johnnybgoode)
Do they have to be able to prove that it was my wife or does she need to prove it wasn't her. Neither of us is prepared to lie (both on moral and legal grounds), but as I said before my wife does not remember being flashed
At the moment, she has been asked to tell the scammers who was driving.
If she fails to do this, she is likely to be convicted of failing to furnish, contrary to s.172(3) RTA 1988, unless she can demonstrate that she did not know who was driving, and has not been able, with reasonable diligence, to ascertain who was driving. This is a seperate (but related) offence to the substantive speeding allegation.
QUOTE (johnnybgoode)
I don't see that we should be expected to incriminate ourselves.
A lot of us feel the same way.
One of the principles behind the PACE witness statement is that it provides the information required by s.172 RTA 1988, but stipulates that it is not to be used as (self-incriminating) evidence.
johnnybgoode
Sun, 17 Jul 2005 - 23:19
Thanks - I've read up a bit on the PACE statement. Has anyone had success with this? I've read lots of ideas (e.g. Human rights), but I'm struggling to find scenarios that have proved to work. Most of them seem to be in the process of going to court or people give up and paying the fine - which I must confess I did last time after a few letters were exchanged. It seems like all the loopholes are being closed.
I guess each case is individual - if there was one that worked every time we would all follow it.
I would be more comfortable challenging a mobile camera. It seems unlikely that a fixed one would not be properly maintained - although most of us are guily at cutting corners from time to time.
Lance
Mon, 18 Jul 2005 - 12:01
QUOTE (johnnybgoode)
Has anyone had success with this?
We still haven't heard of anyone who hasn't.
johnnybgoode
Mon, 18 Jul 2005 - 23:17
Which one PACE or right to silence or both?
Lance
Tue, 19 Jul 2005 - 09:44
PACE.
Right to silence is currently going through the system.
The right against self-incrimination, a similar argument to PACE, has reached Europe, and will be heard in due course.
johnnybgoode
Tue, 19 Jul 2005 - 21:32
Can anyone post me a link to an example case that went to court re PACE? I just want to get a feel for what my wife and I could be letting ourselves in for. For example, assuming that the court agrees that the PACE statement can't be used as evidence, will we be required to justify why we can't identify the driver (other than the photo being a blur)?
Usually at that time of day we know who would normally be driving the car. However, neither can we rule out it being another car with our plates on or another driver as neither my wife or I recall seeing a camera flash.
johnnybgoode
Tue, 19 Jul 2005 - 22:34
Sorry to be pushy, but the 28 days is up tomorrow and we need to make a quick decision.
firefly
Tue, 19 Jul 2005 - 22:41
This link has everything you need to know about the PACE statement; from the logic of it to how to present it at court.
johnnybgoode
Wed, 20 Jul 2005 - 06:59
I got the following error message when I clicked on the link:
"Sorry, but only users granted special access can read topics in this forum."
DW190
Wed, 20 Jul 2005 - 08:13
QUOTE (johnnybgoode)
I got the following error message when I clicked on the link:
"Sorry, but only users granted special access can read topics in this forum."
Because the link is to the Bad Boyz & Girlz which is exclusive to the members of the forum.
firefly
Wed, 20 Jul 2005 - 18:18
QUOTE (DW190)
QUOTE (johnnybgoode)
I got the following error message when I clicked on the link:
"Sorry, but only users granted special access can read topics in this forum."
Because the link is to the Bad Boyz & Girlz which is exclusive to the members of the forum.
johnnybgoode
Mon, 25 Jul 2005 - 21:03
Thanks for all your help guys. Unfortunately, my wife has decided that she doesn't want to go to court - she'd rather spend £60 of my money instead!!
When she's not looking I'll pay a subscription fee to read up as I'm curious and may wish to pursue this line at a future date; it can only be a matter of time before I get zapped for paying attention to the road and traffic, rather than my speedometer!
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