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goldencrasher
Click to view attachmentHello, I'm a brand new user to this site. I've been recommended to join by a friend of mine.

I got a parking ticket the other day for contravening section 27 : Parking adjacent to a dropped footway. The situation was that i parked on a street with no yellow lines on it. But where i parked was next to an entrance to a solicitors. The car park which the solicitors use is where the dropped footway is. I parked with enough space for the cars to get in and out with no problems whatsoever there was way more than a cars width for them to get in and out. In fact end of my car was not even to the bollard that marks the entrance to the car park. However, it seems that someone has taken exception to this and complained to the council about it, resulting in a ticket for myself. My friend has asked me to forward you a copy of the parking ticket to see if there is anything you guys can help me with. I also have a picture of where my car was situated if that helps you in any way. I'm new to this so hopefully i have told you enough info, if not let me know.

Dan

Picture attacments to follow

Picture attachements :
qafqa
Welcome to the forum, the photo of the location is a good idea, can you upload it please.
The board has a file size limit so if he picture is too large host it offsite
and then link to your thread.

How to prepare and post photographs/images

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858
goldencrasher
Hi, this is the best picture i have. It shows that the car was before the bollard on the entrance that they say i was obstructing. I have also included another one to show and upwards view of the street at the time. Hope this helps :-)
SchoolRunMum
I would put in a quick informal appeal saying the contravention did not occur as you were not adjacent to a dropped footway (pavement and kerb look no different - is the kerb even dropped there or is the kerb low all the way along?). Say that you were not blocking the driveway at all and were adjacent to a bollard at the edge of the driveway.

And you may like to add a second point and hope the Council do not consider it properly.

I think the PCN has a flaw in that it is missing some wording on the back:

http://www.ticketfighter.co.uk/parkingtickets.htm

'3.
(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

...

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.





Finish by asking for the CEO's notes and all photos taken if they are minded to reject your appeal. That will then give you more to go on, more of an informed decision about their 'evidence'. Do post their reply here before rushing to pay it just cos you get a rejection (which is expected, happens in almost every case). There may well be more grounds for appeal revealed by their paperwork and response (or lack of response).

You may as well appeal as the PCN clearly says they WILL re-offer the discounted penalty if they reject your informals.
goldencrasher
Well, technically i was on the dropped footway (the kerb goes up further up the street to my back wheel) but as you can see by the picture i wasnt blocking the entrance. So my best defence is to ask for their notes on the case and tell them i wasn't blocking the entrance. But would you say that seeing as my back wheel was on the dropped footway, even though it didn't block access that i was breaking the rules? I never get parking tickets at all so i don't know the ins and outs. I didn't even know you could get done for parking on a dropped footway.

Also, can you explain the wording thing to me a little simpler and what i should put on my appeal or should i wait until they respond until i say anything about that. Sorry, i'm a total n00b when it comes to all this.

Thanks

Dan
qafqa
The Chief Adjudicator has a detailed review of dropped kerbs in this Report

http://davidmarq.com/uploaderv6_1/files/7/...t%202009_10.pdf

The advice from SchoolRunMum is sound, if you are unsure what to put in the letter write a
draft and post it in your thread, any problems can then be sorted before it is mailed.

Etruria Old Road StreetView
goldencrasher
Ok, i've fired off an appeal email that is as follows. Please could one of you read it for me and if you think i should put anything else in the appeal then let me know. The document that qafqa pointed out to me talks about 'purpose' of a dropped footway. In the case that the dropped footway should at least have a purpose, of course the entrance to the car park has purpose but the dropped footway upto the bollard (where my back wheel was) has no purpose. Would that be a fair statement to make? I would obviously wait for evidence and a further appeal to bring this up though i suppose. Also, should i ask for all the notes and pictures now or after they reject my first appeal??

Many thanks in advance

Dan


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I wish to appeal the PCN i have recieved on 17th October 2011 whilst parked on Etruria Old Road. The charge relates to being Parked Adjacent to a dropped footway, alleging that i have blocked access to Hardwicks Chartered Accountants car park. This is simply not the case. I was not parked on the dropped footway and was before the bollard that is either side of the entrance to the car park, meaning that cars could clearly get in and out of the Accountants at any time without any difficulty whatsoever. On these grounds i urge you to dismiss the ticket as i did not contravene any parking restrictions in that area and i did not block access to the car park.

I also would like to point out that the ticket i was issued should be counted as invalid due to missing wording on the back of the ticket which by law should be present:

2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

...

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

This was not present on the ticket i was issued therefore is should not have been issued.

Regards


Dan Boulton
SchoolRunMum
Yep, you have summarised the points so send it off and see what they reply with. If and when you get a rejection post a pic of it here - do not assume that it means you do not ahve a case!
goldencrasher
Hi,

I've received a rejection of my appeal and this is the reply i have received. What should be my next step?

Regards

Dan
SchoolRunMum
You choice is either to pay the discounted penalty or await the NtO and when you get that, make a formal appeal on the same basis. If you get to formal stage you cannot go back to the discounted penaly - it will be all or nothing.

I wouild not send them a copy of the PCN personally - it's their flippin standard PCN template! IF it goes to adjudication they have to provide a copy of the PCN so why on earth you should have to show the lazy clerk the same thing now is beyond me!

Although they have provided an email addy so it may be worth emailing your picture of the back of it, it's up to you - I certainly would not post a copy out! If you email, quote your PCN number and the person's name and say 're your letter dated xxxxx here is the standard wording on the back of the PCN - which I am surprised the Council do not have...as you can see the statutory wording is missing and I will require your reply on this point.'
goldencrasher
Thanks for your quick reply. I'll email them back about the wording and see what they say. Do you think it's worth taking further then or have they got me bang to rights? A friend of mine said i should ask for a copy of the Traffic Management Order for that street as he says that they cannot inforce the dropped kerb law on all of the streets, is this correct? I certainly dont want to end up paying the full £70 but if you guys think i might be able to do something with the case then i'll carry on with the appealing.

Regards

Dan
Neil B
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 20 Oct 2011 - 00:39) *

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


If I'm reading the rejection right they are asking for a copy of their own PCN????? Surely they know what wording they used??

Additionally, doesn't that PCN fail 3(2)(b) in that it doesn't specifically state challenges received before an NtO is served will be considered? They refer instead to the rather singular 'cases'. -- but then appear to invite a further challenge --- but ----

Their request for a copy of their own PCN sets a (rather unclear) 7 day limit, on a rejection dated 21/10 - funny that cos 28 day deadline is 13/11.

HCA?
goldencrasher
Hi, excuse my limited knowledge of these things half the stuff is like a foreign language to me. :-/ Is my best next response to send them a copy of the back of the PCN via email and tell them that at no point does it contain the following:

(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

And due to that i request that they drop the charge as the ticket should have this added to it to be valid.

Also, what is a HCA? and would a copy of the Traffic Management Order for that street give me a case or a chance at getting off?

Dan
hcandersen
An HCA is an individual who is getting nagged to start painting, but who has escaped - hopefully for long enough to contribute.

I can't read the second and third pages of the PCN. But on the assumption that they do not refer to the missing aspect of the regulations IMO your PCN is fatally flawed.

Parking is now decriminalised (although what many councils do is tantamount to being criminal), however it is still a penal system. It was never parliament's intention that standards of process should decline from those which apply to criminal matters and, thankfully, Procedural Impropriety was added to the statutory grounds of appeal so that an adjudicator could review a council's actions and decisions.

The authority in question is Stoke-on-Trent which falls within the jurisdiction of the Traffic Penalty Tribunal whose Chief Adjudicator recently allowed an appeal on exactly the grounds that apply in your case.

Authorities must comply with governing regulations which provide that representations may be made by two entities: the driver and the person appearing to the authority to be the owner. For nearly all practical purposes "owner" is the person whose details appear on the DVLA's register of keepers. The reps made by the driver can be made at any time up to the service of a NTO on the owner. A NTO may be served by the authority if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28-day period stated on the PCN. So the owner could possibly receive a NTO after 30+ days. The owner in many cases is the driver, but although these are the same physical entity THEY ARE DIFFERENT LEGAL ENTITIES. The regulations reflect this distinction and make it clear.

Take your case as a good example. The PCN was served on 17 Oct, therefore the council may serve a NTO on you (as owner) at any time after 13 Nov. Their letter invites you to provide them with evidence which, as has already been said, they should have in their possession (who proof-read the printer's instructions - you?). Say you reply with this so that it reaches the council on Mon.31 Oct. Then what do you do? What if a NTO arrives before they've responded to the information which they've requested you to provide? The regulation that's missing from their PCN deals with this specifically - "(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

They've left this out from all their PCNs as it's part of the printed matter, so they'll fudge/mudge and go into denial. Unfortunately, you'll be the butt of their thrashings.

Personally, and notwithstanding others' views, I'd respond to their invitation to submit evidence and send a copy of your PCN and the extract from the regs - cut and past from here, it's regulation 3 (2) (b) (ii).

But whichever route you take do not pay, you are on to a winner.

HCA
goldencrasher
Click to view attachmentHi,

This is the reply i have received from the reply to the point i made about the legal terms in the PCN. So are they lying about it being legal? What should my next move be?

Regards

Dan
mickR
you might want to remove all your personal and vehicle details from the form
goldencrasher
Thank you, ive edited the version i've just posted and deleted the ones i posted on previous posts. Here are the edited versions of the original appeal rejection and the ticket itself. The most recent reply is on the post above.

Dan

In fact to avoid confusion, here is the most recent reply to the point i made about the legal terms in the PCN. So are they lying about it being legal? What should my next move be?
SchoolRunMum
Another case where the letter says that they 'will' (it seems automatically) 'send an NtO'.

And that they 'will be unable to enter into any further correspondence until the NtO is returned(?)'

Red rag to a bull, that makes me say that of course you should reply and drag them further into the mire when (we hope) they don't reply, or reply dismissively!

Maybe email straight back and say you fear that they have missed the point. State again that the following information is clearly missing from the PCN:

'(ii) but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.'

I would ask why, specifically, the omission of that mandatory wording on their PCN still 'meets the legal requirements' as the owner/you will of course be needing all the facts for the adjudicator in due course. And if they are still minded to reject your appeal then you will also require the CEOs notes and all photos taken relating to your vehicle.
hcandersen
The Regs are clear and their PCN does not comply. However I think we'll need to clarify the matter for the NTO.

The Regulations form part of the Appeals Regs, not the General Regs, and state the following:

Scope of Part 2 and duty to notify rights to make representations and to appeal

3.—

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i)those representations will be considered;

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.



So your point is that the PCN fails to comply with Regulation 3 (2) (b) (ii) of the Appeals Regs.

HCA
goldencrasher
Hi, i sent off a reply to the 2nd rejection of my appeal on 5th November. I got a reply on the 7th saying they would get back to me in 7 days. But the extended period that i got to pay at the discounted rate expires on 11th November and i'm a bit concerned that this may take longer than the 7 days for them to get back to me. I'm just wondering if i should pay the discounted rate or stay and fight my cause, what do you guys reckon?

Dan
SchoolRunMum
It's got to be your call as it's your money TBH.

But the vast majority of people win who post here, and most people win who take things as far as adjudication (with or without pepipoo). I think you will get the same answer from most people in that we would pretty much look to appeal any Council PCN all the way and forget about the bribe of the discounted penalty.

But it's your PCN, so your informed choice and no-one will criticise your decision.
hcandersen
Fact: the PCN does not comply with legal requirements which are mandatory.

Do not fall into the trap of thinking that the council must know and therefore what they say must be correct.

As SRM has pointed out, and there are data provided by the adjudicators to support, the majority of appellants WIN. In London at least 35% - 40% win because councils, having exhausted their capacity to bully and bribe, do not contest appeals in front of adjudicators. While they're judges in their own cause they make all sorts of statements about their processes etc, but, rather like cockroaches, when threatened with exposure to the light of adjudication they run for cover.

The analogy might be slightly OTT, but the underlying facts are correct.

But it's your choice.


HCA
goldencrasher
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 4 Nov 2011 - 23:55) *
The Regs are clear and their PCN does not comply. However I think we'll need to clarify the matter for the NTO.

The Regulations form part of the Appeals Regs, not the General Regs, and state the following:

Scope of Part 2 and duty to notify rights to make representations and to appeal

3.—

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information—

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

(b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—

(i)those representations will be considered;

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.



So your point is that the PCN fails to comply with Regulation 3 (2) (b) (ii) of the Appeals Regs.

HCA



Hi, well i sent off an email as you suggested asking them again to explain why they dismissed my appeal without explaining why they say that the PCN is above board and dont give any justification on this, i also asked them for all the notes and pictures on the ticket etc and they have sent a further letter today acknowledging my email but simply dismissing it again saying that they will not enter into further communication until they NTO is forwarded to me and then i will be entitled to make a formal representation. I also reached the deadline for the discounted payment today which i have declined to do. So, is the next step to wait for this NTO to come through? What does that actually mean? Will i have to go to court etc?

Regards

Dan
hcandersen
I referred to their capacity to bully, and now you know what this means.

You make a valid and substantive point; their reply is to gainsay without the slightest supporting argument.

This is not to do with parking, it's a battle of wills. While the trial of progressing through the process of NTO, formal reps and possibly appeal is daunting, it's more than matched by the satisfaction of winning.

But the choice is yours.


HCA
Neil B
QUOTE (goldencrasher @ Fri, 11 Nov 2011 - 20:33) *
Hi, well i sent off an email as you suggested asking them again to explain why they dismissed my appeal without explaining why they say that the PCN is above board and dont give any justification on this, i also asked them for all the notes and pictures on the ticket etc and they have sent a further letter today acknowledging my email but simply dismissing it again saying that they will not enter into further communication until they NTO is forwarded to me and then i will be entitled to make a formal representation. I also reached the deadline for the discounted payment today which i have declined to do. So, is the next step to wait for this NTO to come through? What does that actually mean? Will i have to go to court etc?

Regards

Dan


They just keep handing you bullets.
Coyltonian
QUOTE (goldencrasher @ Fri, 11 Nov 2011 - 21:33) *
. I also reached the deadline for the discounted payment today which i have declined to do. So, is the next step to wait for this NTO to come through? What does that actually mean? Will i have to go to court etc?


Well they have just basically given you a free pass - they must consider all reps and failure to do so is a clear procedural impropriety. I'd send them another informal rep pointing this out, and invite them to cancel the PCN.

No court - if they refuse formal reps you go to an adjudicator (you can do this by post or telephone, but people who have gone that far believe it is better to go in person (council's keep accepting my 2nd informal rep, but i'm inclined to believe those who have gone that route)).
goldencrasher
Hi,

I've just recieved this further communication on the PCN i recieved. Can anyone help as they are saying that the PCN is fully compliant. I have enclosed the letter and both sides of the ticket so you can check it out.

Regards

Dan
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (goldencrasher @ Sat, 19 Nov 2011 - 11:56) *
Hi,

I've just recieved this further communication on the PCN i recieved. Can anyone help as they are saying that the PCN is fully compliant.

Regards

Dan





They would say that, wouldn't they? And the reply is clearly a patronising template with pictures designed for a 10-year-old, which does not specifically address the missing wording issue.

So, your call as it's your money of course. You either pay the discounted amount now or you stick. If you stick then you are going for an all or nothing decision from an adjudicator (informal meeting of you and the adj and maybe the Council if they bother, in a meeting room to discuss the appeal). If you decide to stick, then you wait for the NtO and then show it to us and draft what you want to say as your formal appeal.
goldencrasher
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 19 Nov 2011 - 13:20) *
QUOTE (goldencrasher @ Sat, 19 Nov 2011 - 11:56) *
Hi,

I've just recieved this further communication on the PCN i recieved. Can anyone help as they are saying that the PCN is fully compliant.

Regards

Dan





They would say that, wouldn't they? And the reply is clearly a patronising template with pictures designed for a 10-year-old, which does not specifically address the missing wording issue.

So, your call as it's your money of course. You either pay the discounted amount now or you stick. If you stick then you are going for an all or nothing decision from an adjudicator (informal meeting of you and the adj and maybe the Council if they bother, in a meeting room to discuss the appeal). If you decide to stick, then you wait for the NtO and then show it to us and draft what you want to say as your formal appeal.


Thanks for the reply, so looking at the back of the ticket, in your opinion does it give the correct information in the part that says:

"If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged

If the penalty charge is not paid on or before the end of the 28 day period as specified on the front of this notice or successfully challenged, the council may serve a Notice to Owner (NtO) on the registered owner/keeper requiring full payment of the penalty charge.
The owner/keeper can then use the Notice to Owner to make a representation to the council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if the representation is rejected by the council. The Notice to Owner will contain instructions for doing this"

The council clearly believe that this covers the "ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner." part. Being new to all this i'm not sure where the wording doesnt cover this. Can you clear that up for me, sorry for being a bit dumb on this, the whole thing is lost on me to be honest. I've only gone on what you guys have said in the past without totally understanding it.

Also, if i did decide to pay, with my previous appeal saying that i had only until the 11th November to pay the discounted rate, am i now stuck with an all or nothing situation anyway. I would have no chance of just paying the discounted rate anyway would i?

Dan

goldencrasher
Another note on this, its been over 28 days now as the original ticket was on 17th Oct. So i would have said a NtO will be on my doorstep soon would it? I'm kinda thinking i'm not gonna win this now. I would prob pay the reduced fine but if thats off the table i might as well follow it through. But i dont want to ask them if it is still on the table as it will be admitting liability. Any advice?

Dan
Mattexmo
Stoke-on-Trent? Oh, God. I had some dealings with the council a long time ago. They have a well-deserved reputation for never getting anything right, but bullying and blustering their way out of the situations that are entirely of their own making. But they know everything! rolleyes.gif
hcandersen
It used to be that the values of local government would transcend narrow pecuniary advantage, but that was before fees and charges represented nearly 25% of councils' income. Now, some of them are no more than machines to maximise third party income in order to keep the council tax low to the benefit of politicians. To paraphrase George Orwell, the creatures looked from officer to politician, and from politician to officer, and from politician to officer again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

The PCN does not comply and nothing that the council can say can change this reality.

If you choose to rely on the council's denial, that's your choice. But to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis, they would say that, wouldn't they?


HCA
goldencrasher
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 19 Nov 2011 - 20:56) *
It used to be that the values of local government would transcend narrow pecuniary advantage, but that was before fees and charges represented nearly 25% of councils' income. Now, some of them are no more than machines to maximise third party income in order to keep the council tax low to the benefit of politicians. To paraphrase George Orwell, the creatures looked from officer to politician, and from politician to officer, and from politician to officer again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

The PCN does not comply and nothing that the council can say can change this reality.

If you choose to rely on the council's denial, that's your choice. But to paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davis, they would say that, wouldn't they?


HCA


I trust what you guys tell me but i just really don't understand the whole thing so i don't know how strong my defence of the whole thing will be when it comes to it. The thing that i don't get is why that statement on the back doesn't comply with the "ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner." part. So apart from telling them that it needs to have it on there to be legal i don't know what else i'm supposed to say to them because i'm just not clued up enough to understand the whole thing to fight it. That's why i keep relying on what you guys tell me. If you think that there is still a fundamental flaw in the PCN and if you guys will help me with what to say to them when the NtO comes then i'll carry on fighting it but if i'm going to have to turn up to a meeting with these people at some point rather than just do everything through correspondence then i don't quite know how successful i'll be as quite frankly i'm not great at these things, as you might be able to tell. I'm just trusting the things that you guys tell me without having a clue what i'm going on about, haha. But if you guys think i've got a case and should carry on fighting with your support then i'll do it.

Dan
hcandersen
We've told you the facts and the law - I don't know what else you want. The council has an error in its pre-printed PCNs and is denying this is the case, well they would.

So, hopefully for the last timel let's go through the their PCN (I have to take the words in your posts as the original docs appear to have been removed):

Their PCN:

If the penalty charge is not paid on or before the end of the 28 day period as specified on the front of this notice or successfully challenged, the council may serve a Notice to Owner (NtO) on the registered owner/keeper requiring full payment of the penalty charge

Regs:
(j)that if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the period of 28 days referred to in subparagraph (g), a notice to owner may be served by the enforcement authority on the owner of the vehicle.

A tick for them.

Next: -
The owner/keeper can then use the Notice to Owner to make a representation to the council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if the representation is rejected by the council. The Notice to Owner will contain instructions for doing this

(a)that a person on whom a notice to owner is served will be entitled to make representations to the enforcement authority against the penalty charge and may appeal to an adjudicator if those representations are rejected; and

Do you see the little three-letter word at the end -"and". It means that that phrase is only part of the information to be contained in the PCN, and what follows is:

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner

Surely you can see the logic of this. I ask this not because you need to, because the law's the law, but because you seem to be wavering and on the point of dragging defeat from the jaws of victory.

If you think the council's right, then pay.
If not, wait for the NTO and take further.

I cannot add more.

HCA


goldencrasher
Hi,

I've finally received the NTO. You asked me to post it up as soon as i got it as i'm unsure what the next step is. I am going to challenge it based on the error in the orignal PCN. Can one of you tell me the best way to reply to this and tell me what the next step will be, thanks in advance.

Dan

I have attached the NTO so you can look at it.
bama
if thats the only two pages you are on a winner
but I suspect there is more printing ....
and we need to see it...


fettered twoc IMO - hugely fettered..
goldencrasher
Thats all i've had. Nothing more than that, so is that a good thing?
goldencrasher
Just to recap. The ticket is attached to Post #27 (ticket1.pdf/ticket2.pdf) and the NTO is posted 3 posts above this one. The way in which we were going to appeal was through the missing wording on the original PCN:

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner

Can someone have a look at the NTO and tell me what to do next. Do i just word it in the same way as my previous appeals?
hcandersen
Make formal representations:

Procedural Impropriety
1. The PCN fails to comply with regulation 3 (2) (b) (ii) of the Appeals Regulations which imposes a mandatroy requirement upon the council as follows:

(2) A penalty charge notice served under regulation 9 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under paragraph 1 of the Schedule to the General Regulations, include the following information
b)that, if representations against the penalty charge are received at such address as may be specified for the purpose before a notice to owner is served—
(i)those representations will be considered;
(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.


Whereas the PCN states the following - you'll have to insert the words, the PCN's gone from the thread.

Don't just state the failure by reference to the regs, actually write what the regs state and then put their words by the side.

2. The NTO fails to comply with regulation 3(3)(a) of the Appeals Regs which provide that:
3) A notice to owner served under regulation 19 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under that regulation, include the following information—

(a)that representations on the basis specified in regulation 4 against payment of the penalty charge may be made to the enforcement authority, but that any representations made outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (“the payment period”) may be disregarded;

Whereas the NTO merely gives a date, in this case 1 Feb.2012. For the purposes of this ground, it is irrelevant whether 1 Feb. is or is not the latest date of the 28-day period, the regs require the words which prescribe the period to be stated, not a date.

This procedural impropriety also applies to the period for payment as both cross-refer to the same period.

There might be others.

HCA

goldencrasher
Ok, so if i reply with the following, should that be ok? Should i add anything else to it? Thanks for your help!

--------------------------------------------

Formal Representation

My reasons for making a representation against the PCN are as follows, your PCN states the following:

"If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged

If the penalty charge is not paid on or before the end of the 28 day period as specified on the front of this notice or successfully challenged, the council may serve a Notice to Owner (NtO) on the registered owner/keeper requiring full payment of the penalty charge.
The owner/keeper can then use the Notice to Owner to make a representation to the council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if the representation is rejected by the council. The Notice to Owner will contain instructions for doing this"

This clearly does not cover the required regulation:

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Secondly, the NTO fails to comply with regulation 3(3)(a) of the Appeals Regs which provide that:

3) A notice to owner served under regulation 19 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under that regulation, include the following information—

(a)that representations on the basis specified in regulation 4 against payment of the penalty charge may be made to the enforcement authority, but that any representations made outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (“the payment period”) may be disregarded;

Whereas the NTO merely gives a date, in this case 1 Feb.2012. For the purposes of this ground, it is irrelevant whether 1 Feb. is or is not the latest date of the 28-day period, the regulations require the words which prescribe the period to be stated, not a date.

Considering these errors, i condider both the PCN and the NTO invalid and urge you to cancel the PCN and consider the matter closed.

Regards

Dan Boulton






goldencrasher
Hi, can anyone add to the above reply to the NTO i had before i send it off?

Thanks in advance
SchoolRunMum
The only things I think you missed are:

'regulation 3 (2) (b) (ii) of the Appeals Regulations' (your letter doesn't state which regs your first point refers to, and it should)

and at the end HCA added:

'This procedural impropriety also applies to the period for payment as both cross-refer to the same period.' (your letter only talks about the period for making reps so you do need that extra line IMHO).

HTH



...and I would edit your post #40 to remove your full name which we don;t recommend people post on a public forum, not needed.

goldencrasher
Ok, so the appeal to the ticket went through with the NTO. I have received a rejection of that appeal today, of which i have enclosed the rejection letter. The funny thing in my eyes is that the actual reasons for my appeal have not been acknowledged at all and all that they have said is that i shouldn't have parked there.

They have enclosed a "Traffic Penalty Tribunal" form. I presume that is my next step? Does anyone know what the likely outcome would be?

Regards

Dan
hcandersen
You need to post exactly what you sent - preferably the document, that way we can compare their response with your original.

HCA
goldencrasher
The NTO didn't have enough space on it for what i wanted to say in the appeal so i just ticked the "other"box and sent a printed piece on paper with this on it:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Formal Representation

My reasons for making a representation against the PCN are as follows, your PCN states the following:

"If the penalty charge is not paid or challenged

If the penalty charge is not paid on or before the end of the 28 day period as specified on the front of this notice or successfully challenged, the council may serve a Notice to Owner (NtO) on the registered owner/keeper requiring full payment of the penalty charge.
The owner/keeper can then use the Notice to Owner to make a representation to the council and may appeal to an independent adjudicator if the representation is rejected by the council. The Notice to Owner will contain instructions for doing this"

This clearly does not cover the required regulation:

Regulation 3 (2) (b) (ii) of the Appeals Regulations:

(ii)but that, if a notice to owner is served notwithstanding those representations, representations against the penalty charge must be made in the form and manner and at the time specified in the notice to owner.

Secondly, the NTO fails to comply with regulation 3(3)(a) of the Appeals Regs which provide that:

3) A notice to owner served under regulation 19 of the General Regulations must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under that regulation, include the following information—

(a)that representations on the basis specified in regulation 4 against payment of the penalty charge may be made to the enforcement authority, but that any representations made outside the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the notice is served (“the payment period”) may be disregarded;

Whereas the NTO merely gives a date, in this case 1 Feb.2012. For the purposes of this ground, it is irrelevant whether 1 Feb. is or is not the latest date of the 28-day period, the regulations require the words which prescribe the period to be stated, not a date.

This procedural impropriety also applies to the period for payment as both cross-refer to the same period.

Considering these errors, i condider both the PCN and the NTO invalid and urge you to cancel the PCN and consider the matter closed.

Regards
SchoolRunMum
They seem to have completely ignored your first point and almost accepted your second point - so make sure that is pointed out to the Adjudicator.

Shouldn't the rejection letter be headed up 'Notice of Rejection of Formal Reps'? As it does not say this, it's just a letter, a comment on your reps...not sure how to bring this point into your Adjudication appeal but hopefully others will add comments.
goldencrasher
Thanks SRM,

Can anyone add to this. Do i just fill in the appeal form in the same way that i did the original NTO appeal but also add in the fact that they completely disregarded the grounds of my appeal?

Dan
goldencrasher
Can anyone help with anything else with my Traffic Penalty Tribunal (Post 43)? Should i just send the same as i did with the NTO appeal and add the fact that they didn't even acknowledge the issue i brought up with the ticket being invalid and the fact that the rejection was not headed up 'Notice of Rejection of Formal Reps'.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated. If you think that is enough then let me know and i will send it off as it is.

Regards

Dan
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