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thesa1nt
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - September 2011
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 13 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A13 Newham Way Slip to A406 NCR E/B E6 (10012)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Allegedly travelled at 59mph in a 50mph zone

No recollection of me driving there on this date and time

Had some visitors over from South Africa and Dublin Ireland staying with us that used my car on the alleged date of offence that have now returned abroad, my wife also uses my car as well as a couple of other people on occasion


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 10:50:16 +0000

Hi All, new to the site and have read some excellent and helpful information on here and hope to be able to get some more clarity.

Your help is much appreciated and look forward to chatting further.

Thanks!
jobo
do all the people who might have been driving have insurance to drive cars in the UK or more specifically your car
Logician
QUOTE
Had some visitors over from South Africa and Dublin Ireland staying with us that used my car on the alleged date of offence that have now returned abroad, my wife also uses my car as well as a couple of other people on occasion

Well if you say so, but by an unhappy coincidence this is rather the sort of situation suggested by internet sites selling form letters or pub lawyers who have not caught up with the current legal situation. If you send this information back, you will certainly be prosecuted for the s172 offences which carries 6 points and a big fine for failing to identify the driver. It will not be easy to show that you have exercised the reasonable diligence required to narrow down this list of possible drivers. It has been known for people who invent overseas visitors driving their car to be convicted of attempting to pervert the course of justice, and be imprisoned for it. In contrast, for 59 in a 50 limit the driver is likely to be offered a speed awareness course, provided he has not done one in the last three years.

Now this was not very long ago, if you are in doubt about who was driving, sit down and work it out. If you conclude it was one of your overseas visitors, that will arouse great suspicion and you are liable to be asked to prove their arrival and departure dates and challenged if they were insured. Statements that they were insured on their own policies from their own countries to a satisfactory standard for UK purposes will not be accepted without compelling evidence, and the penalty for permitting driving with no insurance, which you might be charged with in the absence of proof of insurance, is also 6 points and a large fine.

Do you want to think about this and see if you can find things to assist your memory?
Hotel Oscar 87
You need to be aware that the "our foreign friends were using the car and have now gone home" defence has been widely abused by those seeking to avoid matters. As a consequence the police will pay far more attention to your case than any other. A number of people have been convicted of attempting to pervert the course of justice and have served terms of imprisonment as a result.

On receipt of your reply form the police will ask you to produce evidence that the putative drivers were insured - as jobo has alluded to.

I would suggest that you attempt to reconstruct in as much detail as possible the day in question, checking mobile phone records; cheque stubs; credit card receipts; ATM records (via your bank statements) diaries; PDA's etc etc. You are likely to need them in due course to demonstrate that you have fulfilled your legal responsibilities. Besides, you might well be able to identify who was driving as a result and the objective of the "reasonable diligence" would have been achieved.

At the very least you are going to have to supply the names and address etc of all the possible drivers and, if having carried out the checks suggested (and more) you remain unable to identify who was behind the wheel you can expect a summons for the failing to do so. If you are to be acquited then you would have to demonstrate that you have exercised "reasonable diligence" and the evidential bar for this is regarded as being quite high. The penalty on conviction is a mandatory 6 points and a fine usually in the region of a week's proportion of your salary. However things do not end there as insurers have a distinct dislike for the MS90 endorsement code and at the very least will hike your premiums and keep it that way for some years. Some insurers dislike MS90 to such an extent that they cancel policies.
Aretnap
If it was a real foreigner driving your car you're in line for 6 points and a big fine, unless you can prove that he was insured to drive it. If it was an imaginary one, it will be more like six months in prison. Tread carefully.
andy_foster
It might be prudent to point out to some of the regulars that the site does not tolerate accusations being levelled against OPs without evidence to support those allegations. However where a poster's version of events appears to be a little lacking in credibility, it is generally prudent to point out that *if* they were being less than truthful, or had perhaps misremembered events, what the potential consequences could be, and also what the police's response is likely to be.
thesa1nt
Wow, not what I was expecting at all!

As a matter of fact I am South African, now residing in the UK from British heritage so I have a number of relatives and friends that visit me here and some that used to live with me over here, but have since returned and visit occasionally.

My wife is Irish and the same applies...

We had a visit from her sister and boyfriend that coincide with the date of the allegation as well as a friend of mine all staying with us over that period.

I am self employed and work from home and there are several people that use my car, including the above mentioned which are not familiar with the roads/areas, etc...they rely soley on sat nav to direct them where they are going. They both used my car on that day as did I, but I am pretty positive that it was not me.

Just because others may have exploited this as a previous loophole, doesn't mean that somebody that this genuinely happened to is as well.

As far as I was aware, so long as they are fully comp in Ireland and I give permission on my fully comp insurance they are allowed to drive my car...didnt know that was not the case!

Also EU licenses are valid over here as are South African Licences for 12 months after entering.

What is it were either myself or my wife driving but we cant be sure who it was?

Thanks for your help!


QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 12:06) *
QUOTE
Had some visitors over from South Africa and Dublin Ireland staying with us that used my car on the alleged date of offence that have now returned abroad, my wife also uses my car as well as a couple of other people on occasion

Well if you say so, but by an unhappy coincidence this is rather the sort of situation suggested by internet sites selling form letters or pub lawyers who have not caught up with the current legal situation. If you send this information back, you will certainly be prosecuted for the s172 offences which carries 6 points and a big fine for failing to identify the driver. It will not be easy to show that you have exercised the reasonable diligence required to narrow down this list of possible drivers. It has been known for people who invent overseas visitors driving their car to be convicted of attempting to pervert the course of justice, and be imprisoned for it. In contrast, for 59 in a 50 limit the driver is likely to be offered a speed awareness course, provided he has not done one in the last three years.

Now this was not very long ago, if you are in doubt about who was driving, sit down and work it out. If you conclude it was one of your overseas visitors, that will arouse great suspicion and you are liable to be asked to prove their arrival and departure dates and challenged if they were insured. Statements that they were insured on their own policies from their own countries to a satisfactory standard for UK purposes will not be accepted without compelling evidence, and the penalty for permitting driving with no insurance, which you might be charged with in the absence of proof of insurance, is also 6 points and a large fine.

Do you want to think about this and see if you can find things to assist your memory?


No need to be rude! Guilty until proven otherwise on this forum then?

QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 11:55) *
do all the people who might have been driving have insurance to drive cars in the UK or more specifically your car


Well they have driven their own car over from Ireland into the UK, does this apply?

QUOTE (andy_foster @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 12:56) *
It might be prudent to point out to some of the regulars that the site does not tolerate accusations being levelled against OPs without evidence to support those allegations. However where a poster's version of events appears to be a little lacking in credibility, it is generally prudent to point out that *if* they were being less than truthful, or had perhaps misremembered events, what the potential consequences could be, and also what the police's response is likely to be.


Thanks Andy
AFCNEAL
Everyone on here gives their advice free of charge and there is a long history of people citing the myriad of drivers possible on the day in question, often from another country - so if you did the research on here first, you might understand the doubt!

Anyway - you should know the location of the 'offence' and the time so it shouldn't be hard to indentify who was the keepr at that time in that place? It seems odd your visiotrs from Ireland drove across..............and then borrowed your car. Their Ireland insurance doesn't necessarily cover them outside of Ireland and ditto someone from ZA and the law requires you ensure insurance is in place - ignorance is not a defence.

At 59/50 it may well be'just' an SAC or small fine - are you willlng to gamble vs £500+ and a large hike in your insurance?
Pete D
On the insurance issue, the driver would have to have a 'Driving Other Vehicles' extension on their individual policies and not restricted by age.
Let us assume this was a camera van. There will be DVD/Video footage of the event so write to them and ask for any photo's to help you identify the driver. No not elaborate or use the words evidence or proof or ask for anything else at this stage. This does not stop the 28 day clock so do it today. They do not have to provide the photo's but most often do. Pete D
thesa1nt
I dont understand this then:

What happens if the person driving the car at the time of the incident was a visitor to this country and is now abroad?

Upon receipt of the Notice of Intended Prosecution, your only obligation is to identify the driver at the time of the incident. If that person does not hold a UK licence, or has left the country, that is not your concern as long as when they were driving your vehicle they were properly insured. If you can confirm a name and an address for the driver, you should do so and then it is up to the Process Department to decide whether they want to proceed. They may ask for proof that the driver is abroad but they are not actually entitled to that information. As indicated, all you have to do is give the name and address of the person.

Although the UK Courts cannot endorse a non–UK licence with penalty points, they can still convict the driver and impose a fine. The options available to the Court are a) a fine, or b) a fine and disqualification.

Taken from: http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/procedure/no...prosecution.htm

It seems odd your visiotrs from Ireland drove across..............and then borrowed your car.

They drove over before when heading to Germany, on this occasion they flew into Luton Airport where we collected them.

I was out most of the day on my motorcycle whilst they were at home and as stated above, they all used the car that day as did I and my wife making 4 possible drivers.

QUOTE (AFCNEAL @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 14:15) *
Everyone on here gives their advice free of charge and there is a long history of people citing the myriad of drivers possible on the day in question, often from another country - so if you did the research on here first, you might understand the doubt!

Anyway - you should know the location of the 'offence' and the time so it shouldn't be hard to indentify who was the keepr at that time in that place? It seems odd your visiotrs from Ireland drove across..............and then borrowed your car. Their Ireland insurance doesn't necessarily cover them outside of Ireland and ditto someone from ZA and the law requires you ensure insurance is in place - ignorance is not a defence.

At 59/50 it may well be'just' an SAC or small fine - are you willlng to gamble vs £500+ and a large hike in your insurance?


Unfortunately I recently did a SAC and no I am not gambling, just trying to find out where I satnd as I am pretty certain it wasnt me driving.

Also, I have 3 points on a new uk license for talking on my mobile phone so may lose my license if I get another 3 points, or should I say will lose.

Gan
The police don't like "driver lives abroad" responses and will investigate further - perhaps asking for evidence such as hotel bills or tickets.

Once the accusation is made that the driver had no insurance, it's up to you to prove that they did - if not you get 6 points for permitting them to drive.

It serves the same function as the 6 point penalty for failing to disclose the driver - it discourages drivers from naming fictitious individuals to avoid speeding charges.

If you are unable to identify the driver, take your best guess. It would be a great advantage if that person lives in the UK, is clearly insured to drive the car and hasn't taken a speed awareness course in the last three years.

Kickaha
Have you passed your bike test, and if so when?

As I understand it, the two years probation applies from getting a full licence for any class of vehicle, so if you have held a bike licence for two years you are not at risk of revocation.
thesa1nt
QUOTE (Kickaha @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 15:03) *
Have you passed your bike test, and if so when?

As I understand it, the two years probation applies from getting a full licence for any class of vehicle, so if you have held a bike licence for two years you are not at risk of revocation.


That would have been, great, but also very recently.

I have had both my car and bike license in South Africa since I was 18 (Now 32), but when I moved over and was unsure that I would be staying so let my 12 months elapse so I had to do them both again...oh well.

After speaking to my wife, it may have been her so I think we will just go down that route and she will just have to do the SAC.

Also, just before I send back the response, do I have to send back the original as I had already gone down the Not sure who the driver was at the time and had written on the form, now I will be declaring my wife as the driver so the form has been filled in incorrectly, Can I just copy the front of the NIP and type my response and declaration on the back of it detailing what they wish to know.

I read somewhere that despite them asking for the original back, you dont have to respond on their form

I can just say it was misplaced and that I had taken a copy for my records and have enclosed it with my response?

Thanks guys, I really appreciate the helpful responses!
MartinHP71
QUOTE (thesa1nt @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 15:28) *
I can just say it was misplaced and that I had taken a copy for my records and have enclosed it with my response?


Not a good idea to get into the habit of lieing, thought that had been make clear.

As long as you provide the information requested, within the time limits imposed, you can provide it on whatever form/letter you wish.

Remember there is probably a video of the incident and so the sex of the driver can be checked so it might (if you still have time) be prudent to ask for pictures to help identify the driver, if nothing else you can stick it on the front of the fridge to remind people not to speed in your vehicle.
desktop_demon
don't need to use the original form to respond - just provide the details (at least name address) of the drivers (or drivers) that you think was driving at the time. And sign the response/letter. A signature is important!

If you name the wife - she will in turn get a NIP. She may fill this in herself as she thinks fit. If you name one of several drivers then in principle all should get NIPs but the police rarely do that now. They seem to prefer to go straight to a s.172 prosecution. Hey ho.... good luck!
thesa1nt
QUOTE (MartinHP71 @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 16:07) *
QUOTE (thesa1nt @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 15:28) *
I can just say it was misplaced and that I had taken a copy for my records and have enclosed it with my response?


Not a good idea to get into the habit of lieing, thought that had been make clear.

As long as you provide the information requested, within the time limits imposed, you can provide it on whatever form/letter you wish.

Remember there is probably a video of the incident and so the sex of the driver can be checked so it might (if you still have time) be prudent to ask for pictures to help identify the driver, if nothing else you can stick it on the front of the fridge to remind people not to speed in your vehicle.


I thought they needed to check your chromosomes these days to be sure biggrin.gif as anybody can look any way they wished these days, not even a down the trouser check would be definite confirmation...remember that SA runner in the news recently? That would be discriminatory especially if they suggest someone looked like a man or woman buy they were the opposite!

Good thing my wife and I look remarkably similar...just kidding, just cant get over the fact that I am still guilty to some on this forum when I was nowhere near that area on that day...go figure!

Anybody know about the 59mph calibration speed on the radar guns, apparently on Honest John they say that it is a common fault that they catch you at this calibration speed and that a slight movement of the guns beam and to not keep it on the same spot of your vehicle can exaggerate your speed dramatically?
Pete D
Radar Guns. ?? Do you know what was actually used. Look up the location for Gatso's if it is not listed then most probably a Scanera Van with tripod mounted Laser device and video. Pete D
Logician
You do not have to use the original form, but it might avoid raising an issue if you do, can you not simply black out your original answer and write in your wife's name?

When you have overseas visitors again, make sure that they are covered on your own policy, if necessary by adding them as named drivers, it is very unlikely that their domestic policies would cover them to drive your car and comply with what is required for UK purposes.
jimster
QUOTE (thesa1nt @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 18:42) *
Anybody know about the 59mph calibration speed on the radar guns, apparently on Honest John they say that it is a common fault that they catch you at this calibration speed and that a slight movement of the guns beam and to not keep it on the same spot of your vehicle can exaggerate your speed dramatically?


That is irrelevant as you were not the driver

You should concern yourself with naming the driver and ensuring they were insured to drive your car
jobo
QUOTE (thesa1nt @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 18:42) *
just cant get over the fact that I am still guilty to some on this forum when I was nowhere near that area on that day...go figure!


, its all in the intonation you chose read in to it,just take it in the spirit it was given, to try and save you a world of trouble, if you did name them and they wernt insured or worse didnt exist at all

we have countless on here, wishing they had , had advice saying ;; dont be stupid, '' before they were stupid
Logician
We are pointing out the danger of naming multiple drivers, which will inevitably lead to a summons for s172 and a court case which will be difficult to defend, and if your defence is unsuccessful will cost you 6 points and £lots, and the danger of naming departed overseas drivers which will arose great suspicion and possibly a charge of permitting driving with no insurance as it is unlikely they were insured unless you have a policy which permits any driver. This offence again carries 6 points It is difficult to accept that you cannot do more to identify the driver at a known date and time from the list you gave of Irish visitors, South African visitors, and UK occasional drivers, all of unknown numbers, plus your wife. However, if that is the case, then go ahead with your list and the very best of luck.
thesa1nt
QUOTE (jimster @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 20:36) *
QUOTE (thesa1nt @ Wed, 5 Oct 2011 - 18:42) *
Anybody know about the 59mph calibration speed on the radar guns, apparently on Honest John they say that it is a common fault that they catch you at this calibration speed and that a slight movement of the guns beam and to not keep it on the same spot of your vehicle can exaggerate your speed dramatically?


That is irrelevant as you were not the driver

You should concern yourself with naming the driver and ensuring they were insured to drive your car


How is that irrelevant? It was my car someone was speeding in. Very pertinent I think!
BaggieBoy
The validity of the offence is irrelevant at this stage, unless you name a driver (and they agree they were the driver) the speeding can't be prosecuted and hence the evidence for it means nothing.
jobo
QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Thu, 6 Oct 2011 - 12:44) *
The validity of the offence is irrelevant at this stage, unless you name a driver (and they agree they were the driver) the speeding can't be prosecuted and hence the evidence for it means nothing.


added to which, a technical defence on speed guns dont work properly will cost a lot of money and will most probably fail
Aretnap
If the driver of your car is alleged to be guilty of an offence, you're obliged (subject to the defences in subsections 4 and 7b) to name him/her. This applies whether or not the allegation is actually correct. If you don't name the driver you'll have to fight an s172 charge, and the question of how the gun was working properly will be irrelevant. If and when the driver is identified and charged with speeding, he/she can decide for him/herself whether it's worth risking a large amount of money for a slim chance of aquittal by challenging the accuracy of the speed gun. Asking for things like calibration certificates at this point would risk undermining your credibility if you had to defend an s172 charge as the court might wonder why you'd be interested in such things if you were so sure you weren't driving.
Glacier2
For the record Irish insurance is always valid in the UK.
andy_foster
Including DOV for all drivers?
Glacier2
I see no reason why not. There is a EU directive on this which many seem to ignore when it suits them.
andy_foster
Do you have a link to the directive? Not that it would help if one of the OP's South African visitors was driving.
Glacier2
The directive basically states that each member state must accept insurance issued by another member state.
Logician
Certainly a vehicle based in Ireland and covered by an Irish policy would be accepted as insured if it was driven on UK roads, but I think it is different for a vehicle based in the UK, which I understand has to be insured by an authorised insurer, and an authorised insurer has to be a member of the MIB. An overseas insurer who did not write UK business would probably not be a member of the MIB, so could not insure UK vehicles. Therefore even if the policy had a DOV extension which covered driving other vehicles outside Ireland it would not be sufficient to cover UK vehicles for UK purposes, as I understood it from a previous discussion here.
sgtdixie
An insurance policy is a contract and the full terms & conditions mandate what you can drive & where. Whilst an EU policy is valid across the EU if the driver does not have DOV cover in Ireland then it doesn't magically appear if you drive abroad.

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