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romck
I parked for 30 mins outside my house where it is all on street parking, my back wheel was on double yellow lines. there was no other parking space available. I received a PCN form my local council. people use the road for free parking as we are close to the town centre. The county council have also recently re surfaced the road and re marked the yellow lines bringing them further up the street. There was no yellow lines where i was parked prior to the resurfacing work. Do i have any grounds to appeal? the PCN reason was Parked in a restricted street during restricted hours. I park outside my house 24x7 only moving my car at the weekend as i don't use it for work.

advice needed
thanks

rose
Bluedart
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 13:03) *
I parked for 30 mins outside my house where it is all on street parking, my back wheel was on double yellow lines. there was no other parking space available. I received a PCN form my local council. people use the road for free parking as we are close to the town centre. The county council have also recently re surfaced the road and re marked the yellow lines bringing them further up the street. There was no yellow lines where i was parked prior to the resurfacing work. Do i have any grounds to appeal? the PCN reason was Parked in a restricted street during restricted hours. I park outside my house 24x7 only moving my car at the weekend as i don't use it for work.

advice needed
thanks

rose


First check the TRO to establish whether or not the lines give effect to the order. If not you are home and dry.
romck

First check the TRO to establish whether or not the lines give effect to the order. If not you are home and dry.
[/quote]


is this available form my council, should i be able to find this information on-line?
Neil B
Available to see at relevant Council office to ANYONE. Some will send copies but it can take a while.

TPT website has a library of them but as yours is apparently a recent change it is unlikely to be up-to-date in there.

(can be useful to just look at any old order to see what they look like -- before you go and view)
Bluedart
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:11) *
Available to see at relevant Council office to ANYONE. Some will send copies but it can take a while.

TPT website has a library of them but as yours is apparently a recent change it is unlikely to be up-to-date in there.

(can be useful to just look at any old order to see what they look like -- before you go and view)


MU is that all orders on the TPT web site MUSTbe up to date.
romck


MU is that all orders on the TPT web site MUSTbe up to date.
[/quote]

Stafford council haven't updated it since 2008. is it the borough or county council i have to get in touch with?
Neil B
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 16:08) *
Stafford council haven't updated it since 2008. is it the borough or county council i have to get in touch with?


Dunno, you're holding the PCN not us - and you haven't shown it. You also live there don't you?

I hear what bluedart says but we know the reality is different.
romck
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 16:14) *
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 16:08) *
Stafford council haven't updated it since 2008. is it the borough or county council i have to get in touch with?


Dunno, you're holding the PCN not us - and you haven't shown it. You also live there don't you?

I hear what bluedart says but we know the reality is different.



Sorry if i'm sounding a bit of a novice it is my fist PCN. It was issued buy Stafford borough council but it was Staffordshire county council that placed the road markings down. This was the reason i was asking who i had to get in contact with regarding getting a copy of the TRO. before today i didn't even know one existed. i have attached a copy of the PCN. I just need as much advice as possible.
bama
QUOTE (Bluedart @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:11) *
Available to see at relevant Council office to ANYONE. Some will send copies but it can take a while.

TPT website has a library of them but as yours is apparently a recent change it is unlikely to be up-to-date in there.

(can be useful to just look at any old order to see what they look like -- before you go and view)


MU is that all orders on the TPT web site MUSTbe up to date.



Citation ?

TPT repository has a lot of tat in it...
clark_kent
QUOTE (Bluedart @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:11) *
Available to see at relevant Council office to ANYONE. Some will send copies but it can take a while.

TPT website has a library of them but as yours is apparently a recent change it is unlikely to be up-to-date in there.

(can be useful to just look at any old order to see what they look like -- before you go and view)


MU is that all orders on the TPT web site MUSTbe up to date.



From the TPT library, note paragraph 4.

When using the TRO library remember:

  • The TROs in this online library are drafted by the local authorities, not the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The tribunal has no responsibility for the content of these TROs. Any queries about the content or meaning of a particular TRO must be addressed to the local authority that made it.
  • The tribunal cannot offer advice on the interpretation of TROs.
  • It is not compulsory for a local authority to submit TROs to the online library. Some local authorities have not submitted their TROs in which case the library will prompt you to contact the local authority directly to view its TROs.
  • It is unlikely that the library will contain a complete up-to-date set of a local authority's TROs; they are being made and revised regularly and the local authority will submit them in due course. If you cannot find a particular TRO you will need to contact the local authority directly.
  • The online library may contain TROs containing provisions that no longer apply to particular locations; equally, there may be TROs that have changed (or amended) an earlier TRO - it can be complicated linking different TROs together.
romck
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 17:23) *
QUOTE (Bluedart @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:11) *
Available to see at relevant Council office to ANYONE. Some will send copies but it can take a while.

TPT website has a library of them but as yours is apparently a recent change it is unlikely to be up-to-date in there.

(can be useful to just look at any old order to see what they look like -- before you go and view)


MU is that all orders on the TPT web site MUSTbe up to date.



From the TPT library, note paragraph 4.

When using the TRO library remember:

  • The TROs in this online library are drafted by the local authorities, not the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The tribunal has no responsibility for the content of these TROs. Any queries about the content or meaning of a particular TRO must be addressed to the local authority that made it.
  • The tribunal cannot offer advice on the interpretation of TROs.
  • It is not compulsory for a local authority to submit TROs to the online library. Some local authorities have not submitted their TROs in which case the library will prompt you to contact the local authority directly to view its TROs.
  • It is unlikely that the library will contain a complete up-to-date set of a local authority's TROs; they are being made and revised regularly and the local authority will submit them in due course. If you cannot find a particular TRO you will need to contact the local authority directly.
  • The online library may contain TROs containing provisions that no longer apply to particular locations; equally, there may be TROs that have changed (or amended) an earlier TRO - it can be complicated linking different TROs together.




thanks for this. i will get onto my LA tomorrow morning to request a copy.
Neil B
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 16:37) *
Sorry if i'm sounding a bit of a novice it is my fist PCN. It was issued buy Stafford borough council but it was Staffordshire county council that placed the road markings down. This was the reason i was asking who i had to get in contact with regarding getting a copy of the TRO. before today i didn't even know one existed.


Ok we understand noobs and I'm sorry if I was a bit short/sarcastic sleep.gif

We just like to test you to see a bit of willingness and since you are in the vicinity what I meant was -- ask THEM not us biggrin.gif . Thought it kinda makes sense.
romck
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 16:37) *
Sorry if i'm sounding a bit of a novice it is my fist PCN. It was issued buy Stafford borough council but it was Staffordshire county council that placed the road markings down. This was the reason i was asking who i had to get in contact with regarding getting a copy of the TRO. before today i didn't even know one existed.


Ok we understand noobs and I'm sorry if I was a bit short/sarcastic sleep.gif

We just like to test you to see a bit of willingness and since you are in the vicinity what I meant was -- ask THEM not us biggrin.gif . Thought it kinda makes sense.



Im going to get onto them tomorrow, see what i can find out.

i think i'll end up paying the fine if i can find enough evidence to back my appeal
Bluedart
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 17:23) *
QUOTE (Bluedart @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:48) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 15:11) *
Available to see at relevant Council office to ANYONE. Some will send copies but it can take a while.

TPT website has a library of them but as yours is apparently a recent change it is unlikely to be up-to-date in there.

(can be useful to just look at any old order to see what they look like -- before you go and view)


MU is that all orders on the TPT web site MUSTbe up to date.

I have sent SCC an email asking why they have not put TRO's on their web site. I should get a reply tomorrow.

From the TPT library, note paragraph 4.

When using the TRO library remember:

  • The TROs in this online library are drafted by the local authorities, not the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. The tribunal has no responsibility for the content of these TROs. Any queries about the content or meaning of a particular TRO must be addressed to the local authority that made it.
  • The tribunal cannot offer advice on the interpretation of TROs.
  • It is not compulsory for a local authority to submit TROs to the online library. Some local authorities have not submitted their TROs in which case the library will prompt you to contact the local authority directly to view its TROs.
  • It is unlikely that the library will contain a complete up-to-date set of a local authority's TROs; they are being made and revised regularly and the local authority will submit them in due course. If you cannot find a particular TRO you will need to contact the local authority directly.
  • The online library may contain TROs containing provisions that no longer apply to particular locations; equally, there may be TROs that have changed (or amended) an earlier TRO - it can be complicated linking different TROs together.




thanks for this. i will get onto my LA tomorrow morning to request a copy.

I have sent SCC an email asking them why there are no TRO's on their web site. I haven't looked, but in order to do certain things, LA's agree to do certain things. If they haven't done it, they may be in breach of something.
hcandersen
We seem to be looking at a one trick pony - why?

Let's see the rear of the PCN and current photos of the location including the ends of the new lines. What about the council's photos of the alleged contravention?

The TRO is not the be-all and end-all, but is important.

Also, please confirm whether the lines you were on were present before they were repainted or not, I'm not clear. If they were not, then as you are a frontager you should have been consulted about any changes - were you? If the lines are new and if you weren't consulted then IMO it's possible that they're not lawful anyway, irrespective of any TRO.

Let's broaden our approach, pl.



HCA
Bogsy
As this involves a borough council acting as an agent for the on street enforcement authority it is likely that "procedural impropriety" will come into it. Such as the uniform failing to convey that the CEO is acting on behalf of the county council and my favourite, the Formal Notice of Rejection. Where there is the "agent" set up every NoR I've seen has been served by the agent council with no indication that formal reps were considered by the "enforcement authority" or that the NoR is being served by or on behalf of the "enforcement authority" and yet all is made crystal clear by regulation 5(2) in the 2007 Appeal Regs.

(2) Where representations are made to an enforcement authority by virtue of regulation 4(1) and in accordance with regulation 4(2), it shall subject to paragraph (1) be the duty of the enforcement authority

(a)to consider the representations and any supporting evidence which the person making them provides; and
(b)within the period of 56 days beginning with the date on which the representations were served on it, to serve on that person notice of its decision as to whether or not it accepts that—
(i)one or more of the grounds specified in regulation 4(4) applies; or
(ii)there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the notice to owner should be cancelled and any sum paid in respect of it should be refunded.

An agency set up does not transfer enforcement authority status from the county council to the district/borough council (the PCN at the top tells us this). The law requires the enforcement authority to consider and to serve notice.
romck
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 18:36) *
We seem to be looking at a one trick pony - why?

Let's see the rear of the PCN and current photos of the location including the ends of the new lines. What about the council's photos of the alleged contravention?

The TRO is not the be-all and end-all, but is important.

Also, please confirm whether the lines you were on were present before they were repainted or not, I'm not clear. If they were not, then as you are a frontager you should have been consulted about any changes - were you? If the lines are new and if you weren't consulted then IMO it's possible that they're not lawful anyway, irrespective of any TRO.

Let's broaden our approach, pl.



HCA



sorry, attached is the back of the PCN.

These are brand new Yellow lines which were clearly not there prior to the re-surfacing and google maps can prove this. I have not been consulted nor have any of the residents for them to print the new lines.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 17:39) *
Im going to get onto them tomorrow, see what i can find out.

i think i'll end up paying the fine if i can find enough evidence to back my appeal






Please don't rush to pay it, come back here first.

There's a fair possibility that those yellow lines were just painted back along without proper measurement or adherence to the Traffic Order.
romck
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 19:26) *
QUOTE (romck @ Sun, 11 Sep 2011 - 17:39) *
Im going to get onto them tomorrow, see what i can find out.

i think i'll end up paying the fine if i can find enough evidence to back my appeal






Please don't rush to pay it, come back here first.

There's a fair possibility that those yellow lines were just painted back along without proper measurement or adherence to the Traffic Order.



running out of attachment space, small pic of before and after
bama
don't attach, host.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16

Bazil
The PCN is definately unenforceable but what is the white line ajacent to the D/Yell line for first.
Neil B
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 01:54) *
The PCN is definately unenforceable


Really? Is there something wrong with the PCN itself or are you referring to something else?
romck
The White lines are there to advise access is required to the vets at all time. It is purley advisory and there is no parking restriction attached to it.
romck
Just had some good News. There has not been a TRO issued for the Doubble yellow lines biggrin.gif so i think i have a good argument smile.gif
Bluedart
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 09:44) *
Just had some good News. There has not been a TRO issued for the Doubble yellow lines biggrin.gif so i think i have a good argument smile.gif


Very good news.
Others may disagree, but the very first place to look before you decide whether or not to challenge a PCN, is the current TRO. There are literally millions of errors with TRO's from all over the country. If you find an error, why look elsewhere for a defense?
Bazil
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 02:48) *
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 01:54) *
The PCN is definately unenforceable


Really? Is there something wrong with the PCN itself?


Yes its the PCN I'll PM you and give you my phone number.

Neil B
Tried to PM you but I got a message informing that your inbox is full.
Neil B
Not quite understanding why you wouldn't share an error on the PCN with the forum?
romck
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 10:39) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 02:48) *
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 01:54) *
The PCN is definately unenforceable


Really? Is there something wrong with the PCN itself?


Yes its the PCN I'll PM you and give you my phone number.

Neil B
Tried to PM you but I got a message informing that your inbox is full.



What is up with the PCN?
Neil B
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:32) *
What is up with the PCN?

dontknow.gif

BangHead.gif

Dunno. Someone wants to play cloak and dagger and I have no time for it.

Rest assured it isn't normally like that here.
clark_kent
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:32) *
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 10:39) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 02:48) *
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 01:54) *
The PCN is definately unenforceable


Really? Is there something wrong with the PCN itself?


Yes its the PCN I'll PM you and give you my phone number.

Neil B
Tried to PM you but I got a message informing that your inbox is full.



What is up with the PCN?


Bluedart
QUOTE (clark_kent @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 15:52) *
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:32) *
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 10:39) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 02:48) *
QUOTE (Bazil @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 01:54) *
The PCN is definately unenforceable


Really? Is there something wrong with the PCN itself?


Yes its the PCN I'll PM you and give you my phone number.

Neil B
Tried to PM you but I got a message informing that your inbox is full.



What is up with the PCN?




Ring bazil (Brush) you have his number. (Keep what he tells you and his phone number close to yer chess).
There are lurkers around.
romck


Draft Letter please can i have suggestions as to if i need to add anything else?


I am writing with regards to the above noted Penalty Charge Notice, issued to myself on Saturday the 10th of September, more specifically to appeal the issuing of said notice.

At the time of issuing, my car was parhttp://forums.pepipoo.com/style_images/ip.boardpr/folder_editor_images/rte-bold.pngked outside my home in New Garden street, where I park every day. Regrettably my property does not afford me the luxury of garaged, or even off-road parking, therefore the roadside space outside of my house is the location I have to keep my car.

Unfortunately, as many people who work in town decide to park their vehicles in my street, it can occasionally make parking difficult. Given their improper parking, I believe it to be highly unfair that I, a resident of the adjacent property, should be the one who is penalised.

Further to this fact, at the time of notice, my vehicle was parked in a manner where-by only the rear wheel was placed upon the double-yellow line in question, a fact I was unaware of when I parked, and entered my home, however, given the other vehicles parked in my street, a position I was unable to avoid.

I wish to make the main factor in my appeal the double yellow lines in my street, as I believe there was no Traffic Regulation Order given to extend these lines beyond their previous length. Prior to recent "Resurfacing" attempts by Staffordshire Highways, the double yellow lines did not exist outside the gateway entrance to the veterinary practice and also did not extend as far up the road from the entrance as they do now.

Without a TRO being issued to the effect of this, I believe the lines are therefore illegitimate and the penalty notice can not be upheld.
Neil B
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 19:57) *


Draft Letter please can i have suggestions as to if i need to add anything else?


I am writing with regards to the above noted Penalty Charge Notice, issued to myself on Saturday the 10th of September, more specifically to appeal the issuing of said notice.

At the time of issuing, my car was par(http://forums.pepipoo.com/style_images/ip.boardpr/folder_editor_images/rte-bold.png) whatevr that was supposed to be didn't work? ked outside my home in New Garden street, where I park every day. Regrettably my property does not afford me the luxury of garaged, or even off-road parking, therefore the roadside space outside of my house is the location I have to keep my car.

Unfortunately, as many people who work in town decide to park their vehicles in my street, it can occasionally make parking difficult. Given their improper parking, I believe it to be highly unfair that I, a resident of the adjacent property, should be the one who is penalised.

Further to this fact, at the time of notice, my vehicle was parked in a manner where-by only the rear wheel was placed upon the double-yellow line in question, a fact I was unaware of when I parked, and entered my home, however, given the other vehicles parked in my street, a position I was unable to avoid. add similar to -- 'it was an honest mistake guve adn I ask you to exercise your discretion on this occasion as I do not routinely or deliberately flout parking restrictions.

I wish to make the main factor in my appeal the double yellow lines in my street, as I believe there was no Traffic Regulation Order given to extend these lines beyond their previous length. Prior to recent "Resurfacing" attempts by Staffordshire Highways, the double yellow lines did not exist outside the gateway entrance to the veterinary practice and also did not extend as far up the road from the entrance as they do now.

Without a TRO being issued to the effect of this, I believe the lines are therefore illegitimate and the penalty notice can not be upheld.


Otherwise ok. Not quite my style but hey, whatever style you feel comfortable with.
hcandersen
I suggest you add that if the council does not accept your challenge you require it to provide you with a copy of the relevant part of the traffic order that in their opinion establishes the restriction.

HCA
Bluedart
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:32) *
What is up with the PCN?

dontknow.gif

BangHead.gif

Dunno. Someone wants to play cloak and dagger and I have no time for it.

Rest assured it isn't normally like that here.


There is far too much information given out on this public forum, it is not playing cloak and dagger.
Giving assistance to others is fine for those who need it, but giving information that would assist public authorities, is not what we should be about.
There are major errors with many things that those in authority throw at us, why should we show them our defence. If Churchill had done that, we would all now be speaking some other language.
There is a PM facility that should be used more often. And there are members on this site that can track others to know if they are genuine people requiring assistance.
When you book a holiday or a seat in a restaurant, you have to give contact details and if they think fit, they will ring you back just to confirm you are genuine.
Neil B
QUOTE (Bluedart @ Sat, 17 Sep 2011 - 02:20) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:47) *
QUOTE (romck @ Mon, 12 Sep 2011 - 13:32) *
What is up with the PCN?

dontknow.gif

BangHead.gif

Dunno. Someone wants to play cloak and dagger and I have no time for it.

Rest assured it isn't normally like that here.


There is far too much information given out on this public forum, it is not playing cloak and dagger.
Giving assistance to others is fine for those who need it, but giving information that would assist public authorities, is not what we should be about.
There are major errors with many things that those in authority throw at us, why should we show them our defence. If Churchill had done that, we would all now be speaking some other language.
There is a PM facility that should be used more often. And there are members on this site that can track others to know if they are genuine people requiring assistance.
When you book a holiday or a seat in a restaurant, you have to give contact details and if they think fit, they will ring you back just to confirm you are genuine.


Your opinion.

'Bazil' has since made a point in another thead that might well have some validity as a 'tactic' but overall I personall remain unconvinced.

On a certain other 'forum' you would be banned for such exchange of info and (in my case) even if you haven't actually done so - (but Clark Kent likes to say you have and been warned for it?) - yeah I haven't forgotten Clark, despite your more recent positive input here.

I much prefer the current etiquette of PepiPoo unless someone wants to state a clearer reason why such info cannot be shared.
If you don't want to share info then why are people on a 'forum'?
Bazil
QUOTE
If you don't want to share info then why are people on a 'forum'?
I have helped scatz, this is his thread but I am not about to help the councils, scatz is quite happy with the info I gave him and Bluedart who knows of me is quite happy, its just you Neil who are reticent and unless you clear your inbox I can't provide you with any any details as to why the PCN is unenforceable and it cannot be made public on here or anywhere else yet.

Neil B Phone me and you will find out, you will change your opinion, why have a PM if you keep your inbox full so no one can contact you with details, I am not interested in your private life, I can put this right in minutes just phone me.
Bogsy
The only failure I can see with the PCN is that it does not convey that a person can informally appeal at any time before the NtO is served (the reg 3(2)(b) argument). A failure that has fallen on deaf ears at various adjudications over the last couple of years (and a review) where TPT decided the PCN (PATROL's template one by the way) was substantially compliant. I'm aware that recently one adjudicator agreed with me. Sadly though one swallow does not a summer make.
Neil B
QUOTE (Bazil @ Sat, 17 Sep 2011 - 14:23) *
its just you Neil who are reticent and unless you clear your inbox I can't provide you with any any details as to why the PCN is unenforceable and it cannot be made public on here or anywhere else yet.

Neil B Phone me and you will find out, you will change your opinion, why have a PM if you keep your inbox full so no one can contact you with details, I am not interested in your private life, I can put this right in minutes just phone me.


At least I understand you are missing the point. There is nothing to 'put right' Bazil. I don't need to know about the PCN or your reasons why it can't be made public. That is your business.

In the scatz thread you went on to explain how this is related to a preferred tactic in the appeals process. I found it interesting and said so above. I went on to say I remained unconvinced but hey - it's just a view!

I merely raised, initially, a query as to whether the way you share or offer info is acceptable on the forum. The answer isn't up to me.

I only made the last post in relation to Bluedart's statement about there being too much info on the forum.
There is nothing wrong with PM but I think there is a little too much paranoia about Council snoopers. I'm not saying they don't exist but have never seen any evidence that they do or that posts on this forum have influenced the way a Council have handled appeals.
Bluedart
Regarding the TRO

Thank you for your enquiry regarding access to Traffic Regulation Orders through the SCC web site. It is our future vision to publish our TROs on the web. However I’m afraid that they aren’t available on our web site.

If you wish to obtain a specific Traffic Regulation Order or are interested in a particular road I would be happy to forward you the required information. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can assist you further.
Bluedart

The Traffic Penalty Tribunal has encouraged local authorities to submit their TROs to this library.

I think SCC needs a bit more encouragement.
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