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Full Version: [NIP Wizard] Alleged 80mph in 60mph limit. Unsure when NIP arrived
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
bigredduke
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2011
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 23 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - B1249 Staxton Wold
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Alleged 83mph on a 60mph limit road. Did not see any patrol car and was not stopped at the time. I was out of the country for nearly 3 weeks from 27th July and our neighbour was collecting our post. I first opened the NIP today on the 16 August 22 days after the alleged offence. My neighbour does not know when the NIP arrived and there is no postmark or date on the envelope. Advice please. Thanks

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Unsure
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 21:16:32 +0000
Logician
ou do not appear to have any hope of a late NIP defence without any evidence of when the NIP arrived. You could ask for photographs to assist in identifying the driver, making no mention of proof or evidence which you are not entitled to at this stage. Most forces will send these or direct you to a website. Then you should be able to see where this was and confirm it was your car.
This does not stop the time running on the 28 days you have to respond, and you may not get any photos before that expires, as time has already gone by. Failing to identify the driver is a much more serious offence than speeding, carrying a large fine and six points, so do not risk that, once you are approaching their deadline you must return the form identifying yourself. You are likely to be offered a fixed penalty of £60 + 3 points. If the photos reveal anything wrong you can decline the FPN and take it to court.
Aretnap
A NIP sent by first class post is assumed to arrive two working days after posting in the absence of evidence to the contrary. It doesn't sound like you have any evidence to the contrary, so there's no late NIP defence.
bigredduke
Thanks for the help so far. Does the 28 days given to reply start from the date of the alleged offence or the date on the NIP?
Gan
QUOTE (Aretnap @ Tue, 16 Aug 2011 - 23:41) *
A NIP sent by first class post is assumed to arrive two working days after posting in the absence of evidence to the contrary. It doesn't sound like you have any evidence to the contrary, so there's no late NIP defence.



The police will be working to this time-table when they expect your reply. Don't add 28 days to the date you opened your post or you risk an S172 charge which is much more serious.

The 28 days runs from the date they assume you received the NIP = two days after the date on it
andy_foster
It's 28 days beginning with the date of service - in other words the deemed date of service (2 business days after posting) is day 1 of the 28 days.
bigredduke
Thank you. That gives me time to ask for photographs.
bigredduke
A week has passed since I requested a photograph to comply with section 172 (by recorded/signed for post) and I have received absolutely nothing. I am getting close to the 28 days allowed to respond. What should I do now?
Thanks
southpaw82
Reply naming the driver.
Gan
You answered the NIP Wizard that you were driving.

Return the form naming yourself. Send it by First Class post with a receipt of posting and keep a copy of your reply.

Aretnap
While it doesn't say much for North Yorkshire's "customer service", they're under no actual obligation to send you the photos, or even reply at all, so the fact that they haven't doesn't change your responsibility to name yourself as driver within 28 days. Failing to do so would risk 6 points and a much bigger fine than £60.
bigredduke
QUOTE (Aretnap @ Wed, 24 Aug 2011 - 22:23) *
While it doesn't say much for North Yorkshire's "customer service", they're under no actual obligation to send you the photos, or even reply at all, so the fact that they haven't doesn't change your responsibility to name yourself as driver within 28 days. Failing to do so would risk 6 points and a much bigger fine than £60.


Understood. What I find unacceptable is that the innocent until proven guilty does not seem to apply to motoring offences. Indeed, the onus is on the road user to prove they are innocent rather than the authorities having to prove guilt. Furthermore, the fact that they are unwilling to supply a photographic image after a perfectly reasonable request indicates they actually do not care who was driving at the time as long as they get their £60 and someone to take the points. The whole system is designed for administrative convenience not justice.

Also, receiving an NIP from the Chief Constable of North Yorkshire, a man who not so long ago was found guilty of gross misconduct and still kept his job would be laughable if it wasn't so sickening.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-...kshire-13342382
Logician
The photo may well not have been of any help in identifying the driver, so was not sent. The authorities do have to prove guilt, they know the car was doing 20 mph over the limit and someone was driving it, they have no means of knowing themselves, so have to ask the person most likely to know, which is you. You are not assumed to be guilty, you are assumed to know who was driving.
andy_foster
If you phone them and explain that you have written to them requesting photos to help you to identify the driver, have not had a response, are running out of time and are wary of recklessly guessing at who was driving, they will either send you the photos and give you extra time to name the driver, or tell you that it's your problem not theirs.
Hotel Oscar 87
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 26 Aug 2011 - 00:22) *
If you phone them and explain that you have written to them requesting photos to help you to identify the driver, have not had a response, are running out of time and are wary of recklessly guessing at who was driving, they will either send you the photos and give you extra time to name the driver, or tell you that it's your problem not theirs.

Further to Andy's comment I am aware of a force that emailed copies of photos immediately after a telephone conversation of exactly the type indicated. Although it wasn't N. Yorks, you never know your luck if you are polite and appear reasonable.
bigredduke
QUOTE (Hotel Oscar 87 @ Fri, 26 Aug 2011 - 03:09) *
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Fri, 26 Aug 2011 - 00:22) *
If you phone them and explain that you have written to them requesting photos to help you to identify the driver, have not had a response, are running out of time and are wary of recklessly guessing at who was driving, they will either send you the photos and give you extra time to name the driver, or tell you that it's your problem not theirs.

Further to Andy's comment I am aware of a force that emailed copies of photos immediately after a telephone conversation of exactly the type indicated. Although it wasn't N. Yorks, you never know your luck if you are polite and appear reasonable.


Well, despite a polite follow-up call I received a pompous, arrogant letter which stated that they were not legally obliged to provide any image and they would not be doing so. Does the Freedom of information act apply to photographic images taken for such cases or not?
southpaw82
Nope.
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