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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
VVrath
14 days ago my GF and I attended a training weekend for an Edinburgh Fringe Festival venue - We spend a couple of weeks each summer on a Busman's Holiday to the fringe, helping run a venue. The training took place in Old Dalby near Melton Mowbray, and was attended by around 30 people from all over the UK. The plan was to leave the training venue late on Saturday for a hotel and then return for further training on the Sunday.

At around 11pm on the Saturday we left the training venue for the hotel. As none of us were locals we were driving in a convoy to stop anyone getting lost on the way. I was driving my car, with my GF in the passenger seat and two passengers in the back who had arrived by train and so didn't have transport of their own.

Unfortunately the lead driver of our little convoy got lost on the approach to the hotel (there was a roundabout just off the M1 with some particularly atrocious lane markings), and we missed our turning and ended up on (what a subsequent look at Google Maps leads me to believe is) the A563. Looking to turn around at the earliest possible opportunity, we headed toward a strange junction/roundabout-hybrid at what I now believe to be Soar Valley Way / Lubbesthorpe Way. As our convoy approached a set of traffic lights, they started to turn amber. Not wanting to lose the lead car, and believing I was too close to the line to stop safely, I continued through the lights. I did not see the traffic lights turn red, but after I crossed the line, I noticed a double flash in my rear-view mirrors.

I already have three points on my license for an earlier speeding offence (I've since bought a car with a speed limiter and use it religiously!), so I have been checking the post anxiously awaiting an NIP. It's now 14 days since July the second, and no NIP has arrived. The car's been registered to this address since we bought it last year (I'm the RK), so there shouldn't be any problems on the DVLA's database.

A few(!) questions - if anyone has any answers at all they'd be greatly appreciated:

  • Are cameras like this film or digital? If film, do they always film in them? If digital, do they always follow up with a NIP?
  • How closely linked is the flash going off with an offence being committed? Do they only trigger after the lights have changed to red, or do they sometimes "go off early" and the images get thrown away after examination by a human?
  • Has anyone else on the boards been flashed by this camera? Feel like sharing your experience?
  • Is this a strict liability (e.g. cross the line 1 millisecond after it turns red and you're guilty) or is there some leeway involved?
  • If a NIP subsequently turns up, having been posted on time to arrive within the 14 day window, but having also been delayed in the post, how easy would it be to get it thrown out for not being served in time?
  • If an NIP subsequently turns up, but was not posted in time to arrive within the 14 day window, how easy would it be to get it thrown out for not being served in time?
  • If an NIP has been posted but been lost in the post (a distinct possibility - several items e.g. parcels or birthday cards have failed to be delivered before now and we regularly get post that is intended for a different address) what do I do when / if they send a reminder?
  • How long do I have to wait until I can safely assume that no action will be taken against me?
Cheers!
The Rookie
Wet film, the film may have run out - who knows! The only thing you can do is sit and wait on 'something'.

Simon
fuzzybunny
I received a speeding NIP a few years ago on the 15th day after the offence from North Wales Police it was posted on the 13th day (check the stamped on date code on the back of the envelope). With help from this forum I argued that it hadnt been posted in time to arrive within 14 days and they dropped the case. So if a NIP comes comes open the envelope carefully so you can check the date code as evidence.
see below
Logician
QUOTE
Is this a strict liability (e.g. cross the line 1 millisecond after it turns red and you're guilty) or is there some leeway involved?

The offence is committed if any part of the vehicle crosses the line after the light has turned red. The leeway is the amber phase.
QUOTE
If a NIP subsequently turns up, having been posted on time to arrive within the 14 day window, but having also been delayed in the post, how easy would it be to get it thrown out for not being served in time?

The problem is proving when it arrived. You really need to lurk around waiting for the postman and get him to witness the day he delivers a NIP.
QUOTE
If an NIP subsequently turns up, but was not posted in time to arrive within the 14 day window, how easy would it be to get it thrown out for not being served in time?

That should be straitforward, quoting Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside
QUOTE
If an NIP has been posted but been lost in the post (a distinct possibility - several items e.g. parcels or birthday cards have failed to be delivered before now and we regularly get post that is intended for a different address) what do I do when / if they send a reminder?

You are faced with the difficulty of proving a negative, that the letter was not delivered, a very difficult thing to do
QUOTE
How long do I have to wait until I can safely assume that no action will be taken against me?

It is not possible to give much guidance, the chances drop off expotentially. After say 9 months there should be no chance at all.
Aretnap
QUOTE (VVrath @ Sat, 16 Jul 2011 - 22:26) *
[*]Is this a strict liability (e.g. cross the line 1 millisecond after it turns red and you're guilty) or is there some leeway involved?

The offence is complete if any part of your car crosses the line on red. In practice though, red light cameras are usually set to flash only people crossing a short time (normally about half a second?) after the light turns red.

QUOTE
[*]If a NIP subsequently turns up, having been posted on time to arrive within the 14 day window, but having also been delayed in the post, how easy would it be to get it thrown out for not being served in time?

Depends on what evidence you could offer to convince a court that it arrived late: it would be assumed to have arrived two working days after posting unless you could prove otherwise. Not easy, but if you're worried you could try to get an independant witness to the arrival of your post for the next few days. Peter Gidden had his postman.

QUOTE
[*]If an NIP subsequently turns up, but was not posted in time to arrive within the 14 day window, how easy would it be to get it thrown out for not being served in time?

Easier.

QUOTE
[*]If an NIP has been posted but been lost in the post (a distinct possibility - several items e.g. parcels or birthday cards have failed to be delivered before now and we regularly get post that is intended for a different address) what do I do when / if they send a reminder?

You could try to get it thrown out for non-service of the original NIP but this is not easy: as above, the onus would be on you to prove it didn't arrive.

QUOTE
[*]How long do I have to wait until I can safely assume that no action will be taken against me?

Information has to be laid with a court within 6 months of the alleged offence. In practice this means that if you don't get a s172 request within 5 months (given you have 28 days to reply) you're safe. Assuming the force sends a reminder it will usually be around a month after the original NIP, so in practice if you haven't heard anything within another month, unless you're exceptionally unlucky with your post you can probably relax.
jobo
QUOTE (Aretnap @ Sat, 16 Jul 2011 - 23:43) *
You could try to get it thrown out for non-service of the original NIP but this is not easy: as above, the onus would be on you to prove it didn't arrive.


no it wouldn't, you don't have to''prove'' anything, just provide credable evidence that it didnt arrive in time or at all
southpaw82
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 16 Jul 2011 - 23:59) *
no it wouldn't, you don't have to''prove'' anything, just provide credable evidence that it didnt arrive in time or at all


Evidence that compels belief in a proposition is proof, isn't it?
jobo
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 00:14) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 16 Jul 2011 - 23:59) *
no it wouldn't, you don't have to''prove'' anything, just provide credable evidence that it didnt arrive in time or at all


Evidence that compels belief in a proposition is proof, isn't it?



indeed and if he had compelling evidence, it would be good, but he only requires credible evidence
southpaw82
QUOTE (jobo @ Sun, 17 Jul 2011 - 04:19) *
indeed and if he had compelling evidence, it would be good, but he only requires credible evidence


And if his evidence leads the court to come to a certain conclusion then that is the proof that has discharged his burden of proof rolleyes.gif
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