Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: I dont believe them
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Wellibob
Firstly I hope I have posted this in the right forum etc, apologies if not.

I want some advice following this mornings post telling me I had been recorded doing 68mph in a 60.

I clearly remember the incident. Last thursday I was going to the cinema around 7.30 on the A483 N.Wales. I know the road well and all the cameras etc. There was a mobile speed van on the bridge over the road. My girlfreind pointed and said instinctively slow down, I said "its ok I've seen it, and besides, i'm only doing 60mph".

Thought nothing of it until the NIP this morning.

Now I dont want a long court case and all the rest of it. They claim video evidence supports their case, and true enough, I might have made a mistake, although I clearly remember seeing the speed van well in advance and adjusting my speed accordingly.

a couple of things......how far away can speed vans get you from?

68 in a 60 on an empty duel carridgeway in clear weather going up hill...even if this was the case is hardly dangerous or a risk in the least. Can you appeal against the pettiness of this?

And lastly, I genuinely belive that I havent committed an offence... is there an independent person I can complain to, is writing to a local MP much use. Not to get me off, just to register my disgust.

I'm a youth worker who spends all day in some of the areas worst and most run down estates....never a bobby in sight. But on the drive home there they all are hanging about roads trying to raise money...this really makes me angry and I would like to know who to take this up with.

Many thanks in anticipation.
Clear Skies
QUOTE
Now I dont want a long court case and all the rest of it.
that's what they want , so its up to you.



QUOTE
a couple of things......how far away can speed vans get you from?
some are so far away u can't see them... 1000 m

QUOTE
68 in a 60 on an empty duel carridgeway in clear weather going up hill...even if this was the case is hardly dangerous or a risk in the least. Can you appeal against the pettiness of this?
 nope


QUOTE
And lastly, I genuinely belive that I havent committed an offence... is there an independent person I can complain to, is writing to a local MP much use. Not to get me off, just to register my disgust.
 nope,  the only way out is thru the courts..

QUOTE
I'm a youth worker who spends all day in some of the areas worst and most run down estates....never a bobby in sight.
and you may wonder why some of your youths dont like the police.. another new generation comming thru banned pointed and generally hating the police, which will  keep u busy in your old age... every cloud !!!  

QUOTE
But on the drive home there they all are hanging about roads trying to raise money...this really makes me angry and I would like to know who to take this up with.
 u can write to your mp, every little helps.. A well penned letter to your local paper is also well worth the effort, ..

as for all the legal  stuff, that's for others..

rgds
bill
matt1133
There are a few avenues open if you change your mind and decide to fight, one involves asking for the evidence against you which is preferred in cases such as yours (assuming it was an LTI 20-20)

Another route is the PACE letter, which can be viewed in the 'read this first' page

Cheers,
matt
Wellibob
cheers for the responses. Heres the information I think i should have included.

1. Was the offence in England or Scotland WALES
2. The name of the Constabulary NORTH WALES POLICE
3. Date of the offence 16/06/05
4. Date of the NIP 21/06/05
5. Date you received the NIP 22/06/05
6. Was the NIP addressed to you? YES
7. Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? 1ST CLASS
8. Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? If not then what is your relationship with the vehicle? YES
9. Do you hold a UK or foreign driving licence. UK
10. How many current points do you have? 3
11. Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out.  Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons. [color=blue][/color]

What would be appreciated is some advice as to what my options are. I cant really afford any extra expense that a court case would possibly involve, but I cant afford this ridiculous fine. My other points come from an incident last year where I was completely set up and had police fabricate a story about overtaking on double white lines. I stupidly paid up and said sorry for something i didnt actaully do, and I am still very angry about this.
Wellibob
Ok.
Had a few days to think about it, done a bit of reading up, and still really angry.

Therefore need a bit more advice. My complaint is over 2 things, firstly I very much doubt that I was doing the said speed, and secondly, even if I was then is is extremely harsh to prosecute 68 in a 60 on a summers evening with an empty road.

I would like  to request the photographic evidence todeal with the first point, and to establish whether I really was doing that speed. So I need to know how to go about this without jepordising anything.

Also, on the with the NIP came a fact sheet on which it state that I could appeal against the decision in writing. Is this worth doing? Has anybody appealed against an NIP previously with any success?

Thanks in advance
Quattro
QUOTE
Also, on the with the NIP came a fact sheet on which it state that I could appeal against the decision in writing
Appeal against what decision?


The way to get the video is to wait until you get a summons, plead not guilty, then question the accuracy of the device used. Thats how I did it. Bear in mind that it will cost you extra this way if you decide not to fight after pleading not guilty.

You could just ask for the evidence, and they might send you a couple of stills from the video. You can then work out from this, and a careful measurement of the area, the exact speed that you were travelling.

QUOTE
is is extremely harsh to prosecute 68 in a 60 on a summers evening with an empty road.


But if they tried to catch real criminals they might get hurt. So much easier to hide away from anything that might be scary, and take a video of you, then persecute you by post.
Wellibob
Ok i'LL QUOTE FROM THE LEAFLET WHICH CAME THROUGH WITH THE NIP.

Q. can I appeal against this notice?

yes, this MUST be done in writing and cannot be done over the telephone, however any decision made is final, and further appeals must be put before a court. Please DO NOT submit your driving licence and payment until a response to your correspondnace has been received. An appeal cannot be considered by CTO once the penalty has been complied with.
OU812
QUOTE (Wellibob)
Ok.  
Had a few days to think about it, done a bit of reading up, and still really angry.

Therefore need a bit more advice. My complaint is over 2 things, firstly I very much doubt that I was doing the said speed, and secondly, even if I was then is is extremely harsh to prosecute 68 in a 60 on a summers evening with an empty road.

I would like  to request the photographic evidence todeal with the first point, and to establish whether I really was doing that speed. So I need to know how to go about this without jepordising anything.  

Also, on the with the NIP came a fact sheet on which it state that I could appeal against the decision in writing. Is this worth doing? Has anybody appealed against an NIP previously with any success?

Thanks in advance


I fear they will simply tell you that you are free to challenge the allegation in court (they dont give a fig about anything other than the fact you were speeding, road conditions etc is just mitigation to be used when entering a guilty plea in court). This 'appeals' process sounds like something specific to that constabulary - certainly didnt get that kind of off from my lot)

If you believe you were doing the speed limit how will seeing the evidence help (assuming they show it to you - they are not obliged to at this stage) bearing in mind that the 20/20 is known to be inaccurate (proving its inacurrate however is the harder part)
Wellibob
well i'm going to write to them and appeal, dont know why but what the hell. I'm also gonna ask for any evidence that they have to be forwarded....any major do's or dont's????
Wellibob
right, written my letter, but just remembered another thing...

....a couple of years ago I was out of the country for a long time. All my mail was being sent to my mums. I got got by a gatso on the way to the airport and she got sent the NIP. I had my driving licence with me in China. My mum wrote to the police and stated that I was out of the country so couldn't send the licence in. There response was that if i just sent in the cheque, and some evidence that I was out of the country, then that would do. She sent the money in and a photocopy of something or other and that was that...no points. I hadnt broken the law or been deceitful, and no points.

Anyone else heard of this?

Cos I might be going abroad sometime soon  :wink:
MrsMiggins
You'll probably find that your record at DVLA was updated to note that you had been caught and accepted the 3 points, so they would have counted for totting up regardless of whether or not your paper licence showed them.
LordBere
I think MrsMiggins is correct. They do a similar thing with non UK drivers - they create a "shadow" licence and apply the points, so say if you were french and were fined on your french licence, if you subsequently converted it to a UK one it would turn up with the points on it from the start.

I would suspect if you moved house and sent off your DL it would come back with the points and date of offence displayed.
Wellibob
Ok, I have been in email correspondence with the scammers and have negotiated my second extension of the date to send in the NIP. It is now 18/08/05 which is 2 months after the date of the original offence.

I now seem to have 2 options either pay up, or try and use the 6 month expiry thing. If it went to court I can't see them letting me off as I actually did it.

So my question is, what is the next stage of the process with regards to trying to drag things out till the 6 month point. If I leave it until the 18/08 and then request a court hearing, how soon will the summons be?

And when do you know that you've actually achieved the objective? Do you get a summons for after the 6 month period and then write back to inform them that there is no case?

Any help appreciated.
Wellibob
please...
nemo
Going back to one of your previous posts saying 'bit harsh to prosecute for 68 in a 60'. Sorry, but speeding is an absolute offence and 68 is over the limit. End of story as far as the law is concerned... Whilst TrafPol can use discretion regarding 'inappropriate speed, the scamerati do not.

The NIP is merely asking for you to supply details of who was driving the vehicle at that particular date and time. The fact that that NIP is then used as evidence against you is the big problem with the 'legality' of the system.

You have to comply with the statutory requirement to supply driver details. Failing to do this could bring about a large fine and points in itself.

The way you choose to do this is up to you.

Fill in the NIP, send it back and take the points and fine. You would be the scammers' friend 'cos that's what they want icon_wink.gif

If you are up for a fight, then PACE is a consideration - see sticky post.

Either way, I would refrain from having any correspondence with the scammers unless it is absolutely essential - but do make sure that you respond by the date you agreed (recorded delivery).

Re the timeout - papers have to be served with the court within 6 months of the offence date (speeding) and 6 months plus 28 days (failure to furnish). Later than this and there is no case.
Wellibob
Thank you everyone for your advice so far, donation soon.

One last question however, I have failed to send my NIP back by the required date. Totally my fault, away on holiday and got dates mixed up. Therefore what should I do? And how long until I get a court summons?

I should have sent it back on the 16/8/05, but it was a genuine oversight.

However, as I have negotiated 2 extensions to this date, is there a chance that by not sending them back they could go 'under the radar', or have I just landed myself in a whole pile of trouble?

Please, any advice with thsi aspect of the Judical Process would be really appreciated.
firefly
You're playing a dangerous game here.  If the scammers want to wash their hands of you, then the CPS will have a "gimme" s.172 prosecution.  What you absolutely must do is fill in a s.172 response and send it back.  

If you use a PACE statement then I suspect the following will happen:
You will be issued with a conditional offer of a fixed penalty (COFP).  If you accept it then your licence will be 3 points heavier and your wallet £60 lighter.  

If you don't accept it then you will most likely be charged with s.172 (and probably speeding into the bargain).  Any prosecutor worth his salt will nail you easily for s.172 because of the time it has taken.  When you were corresponding initially, you bought yourself some thinking time - but that has now expired, and you're on very thin ice.

In your shoes, I'd submit a PACE statement.  You've nothing to lose by doing this; but I fear the worst.  

Burying your head in the sand and wishing it goes away is not a good strategy.  Sorry.
Wellibob
And what if i submit the NIP late and pay up and take the points, or is it too late for that?
firefly
No, it's probably not too late.  The scammers are only interested in the dough.  If you submit your NIP/s.172 form then I've no doubt whatsoever you'll be offered a COFP.
Wellibob
apologies, what is a COFP
OU812
Conditional offer of fixed penalty

60 quid and 3 points to you and me (assuming you qualify for the offer, which is why its conditional)
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.