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FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
dreidesq
When:- 5-7-2011
Where:- Between Junction 4-5 M1 Motorway.
Incident:- Alleged Speeding at 94mph by waiting police persons in Volvo T5 who stopped me about a mile further up the road.
Arrest details:- Verbal NIP in police vehicle and requested I hand in all documents to them and sign for ease of prosecution.
My action:- Scribbled a signature which resembled the words mickey mouse and went to pieces.
First speeding offence ever in 25 years. I have been driving for 25 years.

Help please.

I'm a bit confused about all this I have just started riding commuting into town and although I have a crazy fast bike I am a scared old fart who rides very conservatively. I was being hassled by a white van idiot for about 5 junctions who insisted on following me in which ever lane I was in and coming close to the back of my bike. Eventually by about junction 5 I found a chance to nip by a truck and duck into the slow lane knowing that the van would have to go past. In doing this I noticed two things. One that fact that the van almost clipped the back of my bike and two the waiting patrol car hidden in the layby just after the bridge.
The van went passed and almost careered into the car in front swerved and tailgated them for about mile and I rather nervously managed to compose myself in the slow lane. I didn't think anything of the police car as I was sure they saw the whole thing and would go chasing after the white van.

Nope.
They stopped me and invited me into the patrol car. They cautioned me. At this point I was in shock at the narrow escape I just had and pointed this out to the police people. The police seemed wholly uninterested in the van which almost killed me and proceeded to explain that I had been seen via average speed camera via two junctions of the M1 between junctions 4 and 5 in the fast lane doing 94mph and issued me with a verbal NIP. I did tell them I was confused at the speed they alleged to have caught me at but they just said that they wanted to do a speedy fixed penalty notice and please sign here "as it's for your benefit"

They gave me instructions to rejoin the motorway and sent me on my way. Unfortunately I was still shaken and in grief (plus my sister had only just passed away so it all probably came to a head after leaving the patrol car) I started shaking and couldn't ride my bike and had to stop about 20 metres up the road. Long story short the police eventually (two hours) got a tow vehicle for my bike and my partner came and picked me up as I was in a mess.

Now I have had a couple of days to get over it. I am still unsure of what happened that day, I regularly check my speedo and am totally confused at how they derived at that speed. I was doing 70-75mph for the journey except for the slight blip to 84mph (50 metre stretch) to make my escape in front of the police car which would have been obvious to anyone what the hell I was doing especially if it were on camera.

In the patrol car there was only a 94mph readout, without any other info, plus there was only a APNR display below that which was reading car vehicle details from the front and behind and angles which looked like they were being taken from the roadside rather than above. I didn't know they had such a device? How is that possible? My thinking goes it is from the overhead cameras at long distance.

What can I do here? Have I been railroaded into a confession or have they actually got the technology to do what they did?
Can I request the video footage as I would love to see what actually happened plus I would like to make a formal complaint about the van driver for dangerous driving as they stated in the car that it was all on video (although they didn't show me any evidence)

I look forward to any replies.
Regards David.
jobo
no, they havent got the tech to do what i think you are saying they did, if they measured your average speed on a thing in their car, then they needed to have been following you at the time, or at least have been in a position to watch you over the distance stated

so either they were lying or youve got the wrong end of the stick

did you leave with a FPN tickets ?
Mayhem007
You can forget the man in the white van, even if you did have his registration number, which I very much doubt given your unfortunate experience with the idiot. On the other hand you might want to report the van for driving without due care and attention or dangerous driving. If the police have you on video then perhaps they also have him.

Unfortunately or fortunately , depending which side of the fence you are looking from, you have been issued with the minimum penalty. By your own admission you were exceeding the speed limit. If you were summonsed to court for the offence then some sort of defence would have been viable.

So I would recommend you accept the fact that you have accepted the FPN. And report the other driver.

If you are prone to being shaken up over near misses to the extent of not being able to ride, is a motorbike the right mode for commuting.

BB Law
I'd pay the fixed penalty (3 points and £60) in these circs. I doubt you will get very far with the van driver but depends on how much time and effort you are prepared to put into it.
Kickaha
How did they manage to do a follow check if the bike was being tailgated by a white van?
jobo
QUOTE (Kickaha @ Thu, 7 Jul 2011 - 13:31) *
How did they manage to do a follow check if the bike was being tailgated by a white van?


how did they manage to do so, when they were parked further up the motorway ?
Decker
"seen via average speed camera via two junctions of the M1 between junctions 4 and 5 in the fast lane"
dom
QUOTE (Decker @ Thu, 7 Jul 2011 - 15:09) *
"seen via average speed camera via two junctions of the M1 between junctions 4 and 5 in the fast lane"



Not been up there recently - are these rear facing cameras then?


Dom
Decker
Normally sets of multiple cameras covering each lane pointing at the front plates yes. If you knew the area well it'd be fun to do the first 3/4 at say 30 and the last 1/4 at 70 and smile sweetly at all the people who think you're in for a ticket.
picko
QUOTE (Decker @ Thu, 7 Jul 2011 - 16:24) *
Normally sets of multiple cameras covering each lane pointing at the front plates yes.


How did they get the bike if only front facing? Is it a case of "he looks like the one"??
Decker
Oooh v good point smile.gif
Decker
must be rear facing... http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/new...-speed-cameras/
nomadros
This is confusing. AFAIK there are no average speed cameras linked directly to anything other than a back office (i.e specs). I think the cops followed the poster at an average speed of 94 for 1 mile and the poster is confused between the ANPR set up in the car and what the cop was telling him.

They may have been using something akin to provida or their own speedo but again neither of those things is a set of average speed cameras.

It may also be that the cop car seen parked up was not the cop car involved in the pull and again it seems that the OPer was followed for a considerable distance.

So pulled for an average of 94 over 1 mile by cops in a marked car (?) on a motorway is how I see this. My best advice is to take the points. 94 is nothing on that part of the M1 so they must have thought your driving was a bit iffy.
AFCNEAL
Just occured to me - I don't think there are average speed cameras between 4-5 on the M1. They start at J8 and end past J13.......

haven't been down for a couple of weeks though.
MartinHP71
QUOTE (Decker @ Thu, 7 Jul 2011 - 16:24) *
Normally sets of multiple cameras covering each lane pointing at the front plates yes. If you knew the area well it'd be fun to do the first 3/4 at say 30 and the last 1/4 at 70 and smile sweetly at all the people who think you're in for a ticket.


The limit would be 50 and you would potentially be in line for a ticket. huh.gif
sgtdixie
QUOTE (nomadros @ Thu, 7 Jul 2011 - 16:54) *
This is confusing. AFAIK there are no average speed cameras linked directly to anything other than a back office (i.e specs). I think the cops followed the poster at an average speed of 94 for 1 mile and the poster is confused between the ANPR set up in the car and what the cop was telling him.

They may have been using something akin to provida or their own speedo but again neither of those things is a set of average speed cameras.

It may also be that the cop car seen parked up was not the cop car involved in the pull and again it seems that the OPer was followed for a considerable distance.

So pulled for an average of 94 over 1 mile by cops in a marked car (?) on a motorway is how I see this. My best advice is to take the points. 94 is nothing on that part of the M1 so they must have thought your driving was a bit iffy.


Good point. A follow check records the vehicles average speed over a distance. I always used to say that "Your average speed over XXX was XXXX". The in car image is a provida/cleartone type image from an in car system. I would suggest nothing to do with cameras and that this is simply an in car check.

If this is the case any defence based on another vehicles behaviour is likely to be negated by the in car video. If the OP thinks again he may reconsider his recollection of events. After all seeing an in car video on a courts 50" plasma isn't always the best thing.
TheGeek
QUOTE (Decker @ Thu, 7 Jul 2011 - 16:24) *
Normally sets of multiple cameras covering each lane pointing at the front plates yes. If you knew the area well it'd be fun to do the first 3/4 at say 30 and the last 1/4 at 70 and smile sweetly at all the people who think you're in for a ticket.

Last time I drove up the A77 from Ayr to Glasgow there was a camera van in the last lay by before the end of the 50mph-with-average=speed-cameras section> Sneaky, eh?
Decker
Not fair sad.gif wink.gif
dreidesq
Thank you for your replies.

As luck would have it I left on my bike GPS which I had reset that morning. The max speed it said I got up to was 81mph.
I have checked and rechecked that stretch of the motorway since and there are no average speed cameras anywhere on that stretch of the motorway. Only the new ones from Hemel to the M25 with those overhead gatsos which I have seen flashing people. (I sat there on the edge of the motorway to inspect them)

The Patrol car which stopped me was definitely the stationary vehicle I passed when avoiding the van, exactly the same T5 Volvo with two police people in it.

Their ANPR video feed in the patrol car while I was being cautioned was getting numbers from the front and rear, though was definitely not recording speed, just number plates. I didn't see any patrol car following me during that stretch on the motorway. Come to think of it the display with the 94 on it did not show anything other than a speed. It may have even been the speed they got up to to catch me riding at 68mph in the slow lane between two big trucks. Hmmmmm.

On the motorway bridges there appears to be two types of cameras.

One looks like traffic master green square looking ones the others are much much smaller grey/black and either are on the front or rear of every bridge on the M1 from Luton to Junc 1. What are they, speed checkers? They also alternate from middle to inside lanes. Never seen one on the outside lane. The ANPR cameras must be coming from the over head video cameras I've seen on those great big poles. They are positioned in exactly the same place every morning and over that week period have yet to be seen moving. This would account for the live ANPR video feed I saw in the patrol car with number plates at all angles. Front and rear.

I was handed a FPN at the scene.

I have also written a letter to the police sent recorded stating I want to have the video evidence stated by the police in the patrol vehicle as I wish to report the driver of the white van. If they can't/won't provide it I will get more insistent.

Looks like I was stitched up. If I can prove they lied I will go after them.
I want their fecking badges.

Regards
David
I am Weasel
Hi David,

I can understand how you might feel hard done by, but on the face of it you were by your own admission speeding and if you had been stopped for 81MPH, then the consequences would likley have been the same i.e a fixed penalty. The police are not obliged to produce any evidence until you refuse the fixed penalty and plead not guilty, so getting insistent is immaterial at this point

I wish you luck if you decide to contest this, but if any evidence produced shows that you exceeded the speed limit, then its a slam-dunk guilty verdict regradless of what the officers may or may nnot have said to you at the time and unless you can demostrate pretty conclusively that their behaviour amounted to misconduct then all you are going to do is raise your blood pressure and throw money at this for no good reason.
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