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luigithepirate
about a month ago i received a letter from the police informing me that they were thinking of prosecuting me for dangerous driving or careless driving and asking me to confirm that i was the owner of a honda cbr600rr. i am the owner so i filled the form in stating this, 2 weeks after that a copper turned up at my door asking if i'd had the letter i said yes and he explained that i had been reported by an off duty cop for undertaking him at considerable speed on the local dual carriageway and would i like to make a statement, i refused told him i didnt remember any of this and he left. now i've received a letter to tell me that they think they've got enough to prosecute me for driving without due care and attention and that i'm being offered a RIDE course and they will not prosecute me. so my question is this how the hell can they have enough evidence if i say i didnt do it and some off duty cop ( if there is such a thing) says i did. they say i should decline the course if i feel im not guilty, so i feel that if i accept the course then im pleading guilty and i dont want to do that. plus if the off duty cop reckons i took him on the inside on a dual carriageway then why didnt i hit the person he was overtaking or is he saying that hes one of those assholes that sits in the outside lane holding back traffic. so basically im asking what should i do my initial reaction is they can go to hell, i got 5 months to accept the course.
justforthepictures
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 19:01) *
about a month ago i received a letter from the police informing me that they were thinking of prosecuting me for dangerous driving or careless driving and asking me to confirm that i was the owner of a honda cbr600rr. i am the owner so i filled the form in stating this, 2 weeks after that a copper turned up at my door asking if i'd had the letter i said yes and he explained that i had been reported by an off duty cop for undertaking him at considerable speed on the local dual carriageway and would i like to make a statement, i refused told him i didnt remember any of this and he left. now i've received a letter to tell me that they think they've got enough to prosecute me for driving without due care and attention and that i'm being offered a RIDE course and they will not prosecute me. so my question is this how the hell can they have enough evidence if i say i didnt do it and some off duty cop ( if there is such a thing) says i did. they say i should decline the course if i feel im not guilty, so i feel that if i accept the course then im pleading guilty and i dont want to do that. plus if the off duty cop reckons i took him on the inside on a dual carriageway then why didnt i hit the person he was overtaking or is he saying that hes one of those assholes that sits in the outside lane holding back traffic. so basically im asking what should i do my initial reaction is they can go to hell, i got 5 months to accept the course.

Are you saying you remember nothing of the incident in question? Does anyone else ever ride your bike?
luigithepirate
im saying it didnt happen and yes im the only person that rides the bike.
justforthepictures
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 19:20) *
im saying it didnt happen and yes im the only person that rides the bike.

Given the circumstances you have outlined and you say it never took place, what do you conclude has happened to wrongly identify your bike's VRM?
luigithepirate
well i cant really answer that i think he just got it wrong, i was on the road at that time maybe he just made a mistake but im innocent unless they can prove me guilty and i cant understand what evidence they could possible have other than his word, theres just as much evidence proving i didnt do it i.e my word.
AntonyMMM
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 19:34) *
and i cant understand what evidence they could possible have other than his word, theres just as much evidence proving i didnt do it i.e my word.


You have every right to decline the offer, see if a summons appears ( the CPS may decide not to proceed) and if it does, plead Not Guilty.

It will then come down to exactly what you say ....his word against yours (as many court cases are) , and will be decided on who gives the most credible evidence.
luigithepirate
thats what i thought his word isn't any better than mine just because hes a cop.
jimster
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 19:01) *
. plus if the off duty cop reckons i took him on the inside on a dual carriageway then why didnt i hit the person he was overtaking


That is a good question


Perhaps he should have been offered an improvement course too
southpaw82
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 19:45) *
thats what i thought his word isn't any better than mine just because hes a cop.

Mmm... maybe, maybe not. Where it's "his word against mine" the court is entitled to believe one party over the other and convict. They don't have to but they can. In so far as evidence with respect to standards of driving then unless you're equally as qualified as the constable (or better qualified) then his word will probably carry more weight than yours. There's also the killer question: "Why would the constable be making this up?"
luigithepirate
it was a saturday evening on a busy dual carriageway so i think that somebody probably did undertake him but in all the excitement and with all the traffic he just got the wrong person, theres no one can stand up and say without a shadow of a doubt it was me thats what im thinking. the cop that came to see me did mention his wife was with him will that matter.
southpaw82
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 20:00) *
it was a saturday evening on a busy dual carriageway so i think that somebody probably did undertake him but in all the excitement and with all the traffic he just got the wrong person, theres no one can stand up and say without a shadow of a doubt it was me thats what im thinking. the cop that came to see me did mention his wife was with him will that matter.


You're making rather a large assumption when you say there's nobody who will testify that it was your bike - the police officer (and his wife) may well do just that.

How do they know you were riding it?
led zep
I am assuming that the initial letter which was an NIP was sent ty you within the 14 days period so this will be in order.As the other members have said above you do not have to take the course on offer and can contest it.What you have to consider is the cost of a defending the case and the penalty you may receive if you are found guilty.If you decide to plead not guilty you may request disclosure of of evidence and CPS will consider your request.I would advise you to consider and then make decision on what you need to do.
luigithepirate
im not assuming that he and his wife will not make the accusation, they most definitely will, wot im saying is im saying that they are mistaken and it comes down to the fact that there is as much evidence to say i didnt do it as there is to say that i didnt, i know that its him and his wife against me but they expecting me to believe that someone shoots past on the inside and the pair of them both see my numberplate and remember every letter, my missus would be lucky if she remembered the colour. all she saw was a black bike.

the course is £105 i have no idea how much fighting it and loosing would cost
Durzel
What I would be asking myself is this... did something happen that the off-duty cop thought was serious enough to warrant going to all this trouble to prosecute? You might as well forget the whole "my word against his", "what if he saw someone else", "haven't they got better things to do" stuff and concentrate on whether or not a) you remember a memorable event occuring, b) whether said event could be construed as DWDCA by a trained eye and c) whether you have the time/energy to potentially defend it in court.

If what you describe is true then it could come down to your word against the cops in court - and as stated already in the absence of any other defence his/her word is likely to be given more weight than yours because they are both trained and unlikely to have singled you out for punishment without good reason.

If there is a chance you undertook someone at high speed (DWDCA doesn't have to prove an exact speed, just that your riding fell below a standard expected of a road user) than I would be minded to consider the RIDE course to be honest, which would see you avoid points on your licence. A DWDCA offence on your licence would hit you hard on insurance premiums for 3+ years.

QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 20:44) *
i know that its him and his wife against me but they expecting me to believe that someone shoots past on the inside and the pair of them both see my numberplate and remember every letter

Clearly they did since you're here talking to us now, and not someone else. You haven't disputed being on the road at the date/time alleged so getting bogged down in "how can they prove it was even me?" is a complete waste of time and would only serve to potentially comprimise whatever legitimate defence you may have.
luigithepirate
thanks for the advice durzel and they are wise words indeed but its a sad day when a man gets done on the word of an off duty cop. plus if this brilliant at driving cop would stay in the left hand lane then maybe he wouldnt get passed on the inside as much. the course is also going to involve time and money so it all comes down to court costs im not worried about points i got a bicycle, any idea on the likely costs for loosing.
henrik777
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 19:01) *
about a month ago i received a letter from the police informing me that they were thinking of prosecuting me for dangerous driving or careless driving and asking me to confirm that i was the owner of a honda cbr600rr. i am the owner so i filled the form in stating this, 2 weeks after that a copper turned up at my door asking if i'd had the letter i said yes and he explained that i had been reported by an off duty cop for undertaking him at considerable speed on the local dual carriageway and would i like to make a statement, i refused told him i didnt remember any of this and he left. now i've received a letter to tell me that they think they've got enough to prosecute me for driving without due care and attention and that i'm being offered a RIDE course and they will not prosecute me. so my question is this how the hell can they have enough evidence if i say i didnt do it and some off duty cop ( if there is such a thing) says i did. they say i should decline the course if i feel im not guilty, so i feel that if i accept the course then im pleading guilty and i dont want to do that. plus if the off duty cop reckons i took him on the inside on a dual carriageway then why didnt i hit the person he was overtaking or is he saying that hes one of those assholes that sits in the outside lane holding back traffic. so basically im asking what should i do my initial reaction is they can go to hell, i got 5 months to accept the course.


What did you get through the post ? Did you admit driving and was it a notice of intended prosecution ? Did it arrive within 14 days ? Are you the registered keeper ?

Admitting to owning a bike won't help them prosecute. Admitting to driving might if it was a NIP within 14 days.

Cheers
luigithepirate
it was a nip and was within the 14 days think it was after 4, asking if i was the owner and rider on the dates and times, i said yes. there are cameras on the road here and there so i presumed they'd could check to see if the bike was on the road at some point so didnt bother trying to deny i was on the road at the time, however when the said offence was supposed to have happened it basically comes down to me saying nothing happened and him saying something did.
oldstoat

plus if this brilliant at driving cop would stay in the left hand lane then maybe he wouldnt get passed on the inside as much

From this post it seems you must know that you did undertake a car at the time. So therefore it is possible that the off duty officer felt this was dangerous.
southpaw82
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 21:10) *
it basically comes down to me saying nothing happened and him saying something did.


Either you refuse to give evidence (in which case it's his word against nothing, and the court can draw its own inferences from your refusal to give evidence) or you go into the witness box and have to face questions such as "did you pass the officer's vehicle on the left hand side?" to which you either admit it (and agree with the officer) or deny it (and commit perjury, don't do this). There's no way of actively saying nothing happened if it's not true without committing a serious offence.
Kickaha
QUOTE (oldstoat @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 21:25) *
plus if this brilliant at driving cop would stay in the left hand lane then maybe he wouldnt get passed on the inside as much

From this post it seems you must know that you did undertake a car at the time. So therefore it is possible that the off duty officer felt this was dangerous.


Where did you get that from. The OP seems to be of the opinion that it is mistaken identity - which means he accepts someone did it, but denies it was him.
luigithepirate
i know he was passed on the inside because the cop that came to see me told me, i know what i did do and what i didnt, what im asking is what are the chances based on the evidence of me getting done, if its high then i'll do the course if its as i think my word against his meaning not enough evidence then i'll fight it. im not really asking if you all think i did it, thats a different conversation all together because im no mother teresa. but when the camera clicks or the film rolls and catches me i take it. but there aint no photo or film this time.
southpaw82
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 21:34) *
i know he was passed on the inside because the cop that came to see me told me, i know what i did do and what i didnt, what im asking is what are the chances based on the evidence of me getting done, if its high then i'll do the course if its as i think my word against his meaning not enough evidence then i'll fight it. im not really asking if you all think i did it, thats a different conversation all together because im no mother teresa. but when the camera clicks or the film rolls and catches me i take it. but there aint no photo or film this time.


It's difficult to say. For a motoring matter such as careless driving the decision to prosecute or not lies with the police. If the officer has gone to the trouble of issuing an NIP and having an officer visit you then I'd say it's a fair bet that he will proceed to summons. It's not guaranteed, of course.

As to whether you'll be convicted then that will depend on what evidence is presented. However, bear in mind that "him v me" doesn't always equal an acquittal. Plenty of people are convicted on the word of a single police officer.
luigithepirate
im sure it'll go to court because its north wales so thats a near enough given, but i was kinda thinking and maybe it because i've watched too much tv that if he admits to hanging out in the outside lane but obviously not overtaking anything otherwise the person undertaking him would have hit it it shows that he's not the best of drivers himself and so discrediting his ability to rate anyone elses driving. plus he might have penalty points on his licence, lots of people do have these days, and if he's not a traffic cop then maybe his opinion wont count for much more than mine.
southpaw82
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 21:49) *
im sure it'll go to court because its north wales so thats a near enough given, but i was kinda thinking and maybe it because i've watched too much tv that if he admits to hanging out in the outside lane but obviously not overtaking anything otherwise the person undertaking him would have hit it it shows that he's not the best of drivers himself and so discrediting his ability to rate anyone elses driving. plus he might have penalty points on his licence, lots of people do have these days, and if he's not a traffic cop then maybe his opinion wont count for much more than mine.


North Wales - enough said.

Being in the outside lane at or about the speed limit isn't impeding anyone - was he at or about the speed limit?

Even non-traffic police are put on a driving course to be able to drive B&T, which exceeds IAM standards.

I think you're clutching at straws myself. I'd take the course.
luigithepirate
ye im beginning to think that way myself plus the course is in the city where i live so i suppose im gonna have to take it. i suppose the moral of the story is if your racing a cop and hes got a 2.2 vectra that he thinks is a ferrari just let him win.
southpaw82
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 21:56) *
ye im beginning to think that way myself plus the course is in the city where i live so i suppose im gonna have to take it. i suppose the moral of the story is if your racing a cop and hes got a 2.2 vectra that he thinks is a ferrari just let him win.

Or not race in the first place... wink.gif
luigithepirate
ha ha ye right. thanx for all the advice people its much apreciated and remember theres no such thing as an off duty cop so dont take ur guns to town
Durzel
Your story has changed quite radically and based on what you've just said now I'd say definitely take the course. Ultimately it's £104 and no points vs at least that much + points + CD30 on your licence for 3 years. It could be worse really, it's a good result all things considered that the offer of a course is available to you - even though it probably doesn't seem like it now.
luigithepirate
i appreciated your advice i really do and i can see how the story has changed to all you people out there but in my head it wasnt really about wether i did or didnt do it it was more about what chance did i have of fighting it so i didnt really want to start with "hey i did this how am i gonna get off" however the person making the accusations was no saint and refused to move over even after his car had reached its top speed so i was a little ****** off that he would then report me afterwards. thanks again
sgtdixie
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 22:20) *
i appreciated your advice i really do and i can see how the story has changed to all you people out there but in my head it wasnt really about wether i did or didnt do it it was more about what chance did i have of fighting it so i didnt really want to start with "hey i did this how am i gonna get off" however the person making the accusations was no saint and refused to move over even after his car had reached its top speed so i was a little ****** off that he would then report me afterwards. thanks again


I think I would stop digging now if I was you. It would have been better to have told the truth at the beginning as advice based on a lie is useless.
picko
I think you will find the course worth the money and an interesting day. I went on a free ride out with two BiB motorcyclist and it was an enjoyable day and I learnt quite a few roadcraft skills that should be taught as standard!
The Rookie
Just to add a car can quite correctly stay in the outside lane passing 2 cars with a circa 2-3 seconds gap between them while some organ donor wannabe on a crotch rocket weaves through the gap - I've seen it done often enough.

Simon
luigithepirate
i cant believe anyone would do such a thing rookie and if they did it would take a lot of care and attention to perform such a manoeuvre and if they were to do it i would hope that someone would prosecute them for driving with far to much care and attention. plus there are people in hospitals all over britain today in need of organs and its these crotch rockets that are giving them hope so dont be to hard on them.
The Rookie
rolleyes.gif
murphcbr6
putting all the discrepancies in the OPs posts aside,

Is there much precedent for the CPS taking up and winning cases like this where a (presumably) non-traffic off duty policeman alleges a DWDCA on another motorist?

Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence of this sort of thing actually going to court, or do we think are the North Wales police just chancing their arm?
dawmdt
If this happened "about" a month ago and they've given you five months to accept the course, is there a possibility of a time-out for the OP?
luigithepirate
i think they are chancing it, but if they do win its gonna cost and probably cost lots, so i think because they havent got such a strong case they have offered the course hoping i take that rather than risk court. but judging by everything i been told on this site so far if it comes down to the judge having to make a decision on who to believe the copper is probably going to win.

its 5 months from date of offence i checked because i was thinking along those lines myself
I am Weasel
QUOTE (luigithepirate @ Thu, 30 Jun 2011 - 14:52) *
i think they are chancing it, but if they do win its gonna cost and probably cost lots, so i think because they havent got such a strong case they have offered the course hoping i take that rather than risk court. but judging by everything i been told on this site so far if it comes down to the judge having to make a decision on who to believe the copper is probably going to win.

its 5 months from date of offence i checked because i was thinking along those lines myself


if the expiry of the offer is 5 months from the date of the alleged offence, then they still have 1 month to lay information before the courts.

So tell me punk "do you feel lucky?" laugh.gif
luigithepirate
let me think do i feel lucky, well on the day of the alleged offence i'd ridden from london and i was 2 miles from my front door on anglesey when the alleged offence was supposed to have happened so luck isn't something that im blessed with, just plenty of care and attention.
southpaw82
QUOTE (murphcbr6 @ Thu, 30 Jun 2011 - 14:30) *
Is there much precedent for the CPS taking up and winning cases like this where a (presumably) non-traffic off duty policeman alleges a DWDCA on another motorist?


Any decision to summons will be made by the police, not the CPS. As such, the OP may well receive a summons (and lose out on a course) regardless of whether the CPS then decide to drop the prosecution if he pleads not guilty. It becomes a high stakes game for the OP banking on the CPS dropping the case. By the time he knows whether they will or won't he's had to forego the course and plead not guilty. If they don't drop it he's left with a risky time in court and a hefty penalty if he loses.
sgtdixie
QUOTE (murphcbr6 @ Thu, 30 Jun 2011 - 14:30) *
putting all the discrepancies in the OPs posts aside,

Is there much precedent for the CPS taking up and winning cases like this where a (presumably) non-traffic off duty policeman alleges a DWDCA on another motorist?

Does anyone have any anecdotal evidence of this sort of thing actually going to court, or do we think are the North Wales police just chancing their arm?


Yes there is plenty of history re this. I set a general rule for my team that only if something really bad happens off duty was it to be reported as every time we drive we see idiots on phones and doing stupid things and frankly I have a life away from work. Because I set the bar very high on every occasion an incident went to court there was a conviction. The question posed when the officer gives evidence is why would they make something like this up? Where the officers evidence is corroborated (such as by his wife) you will simply not win.

In your case you know the allegation is true, despite your original claim, so my advice is do your course, you may learn something.
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