Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: NO PNC on Windscreen but letter in the post from Enfield Council...Help!
FightBack Forums > Queries > Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices
Martie4045

Firstly Hi all, I have read allot of posts on here and I’m sure there are many people here with allot of knowledge that will be able to assist me.

I yesterday received a PNC notice in the post from Enfield Council. I will attach the first 2 pages below page 3 and 4 are about payment and making representations, also the post mark of the envelope does match the date of the notice as i have seen before a different date can be relevent. I can confirm and attach this or other pages later if required.

The situation was that I was parked in a pay and display bay, my ticket had elapsed, and I got to the car as the attendant was there. No ticket had been processed at this point. Explained that I’m "just going" he seemed ok with that, while his colleague continued taking pictures of the car, I believe he may have taken some before. So I drove off, expecting I was lucky but in all honesty avoided a ticket as nothing was processed. Clearly that is not the case and I received the letter attached.

There is a website I have logged onto and viewed the pictures they have one of the front of the car and rear, one of the tax disk and one of the expired ticket, No pnc notice is displayed on the car either, as I obviously did not receive one. huh.gif

Please help me dispute this, as I feel it was clearly processed as they afterwards as they were so close to doing so before I arrived. I also have a ticket from the machine that does expire 9 mins before this timed event.

Is there anything I can do about this, it’s only a £30 ticket but it’s the principle!

I am new to this forum so if there is something I have missed please ask

Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide any help or assistance rolleyes.gif
I am Weasel
please scan and post the other pages - there may be issues with the wording that you can use to your advantage
Martie4045
ok will do, thank you for the reply, i have pasted all the pages below rolleyes.gif


Page1



Page 2



Page 3



Page 4



Envelope



matttheladd
What are the times/dates on the photos they have posted up on their website?

The CEO notes would be good to see and should (lol!) record why they were unable to serve a notice at the time. CEO notes are deemed to be the Prima Facie evidence but in my experience lack detail and are not contemporaneous. There were two CEOs present - that should mean two lots of evidence but I would suggest that only one will have recorded anything and your comments "I'm just going" will not be!

Contact the council and get them to provide you with a copy of those notes but ensure that you tell them that this request is not a challenge but necessary to enable you to make a decision as to whether to pay or challenge and that they need to be provided ASAP so that your 14 day reduced payment period is not affected. At the same time get them to provide copies of ALL photographs in their possession (as they don't always put everything up on their websites) and a copy of the relevant TRO that covers the bay in which you were parked.
hcandersen
Remember, you're not the driver as far as the PCN is concerned, you're the owner. As such you are not considered to have any prior knowledge of the alleged contravention.

Evidence of the contravention comprises the normal signs/lines etc, plus CEO's notes and the absolutely fundamental aspect of the ticket. As the contravention is parked after time expired then IMO it's absolutely essential for the council to produce a photo to this effect and CEO's notes.

I don't know Enfield's practice regarding photos, but if it is to take these regularly then they should have in this case. If so, then IMO the CEO's notes on their own would not be sufficient evidence, they must have a photo of the ticket, even if the details are not absolutely clear (of the ticket does not mean of the car from a distance with a visible ticket in the windscreen, but of the ticket). IMO it's not just that the ticket is evidence, but that if the CEO did not take a photo of the ticket then he couldn't be considered to be in the process of serving the standard PCN and therefore the case would fall on this basis alone.

So, do they have a photo of your ticket on their web site (they've clearly not supplied it with the PCN)?

At this point, the less you "recollect" about the ticket, the better.

HCA
Martie
Hi Guys

Thank you for your comments, I have requested them to provide the further information mentioned, and reading a few other threads added a bit to it, not sure if that was wrong or a contradiction... this was my response/request.

I am in receipt of an NTO which relates to PCN no.

To my knowledge, this PCN was never served on my vehicle or to any driver of my vehicle.

Should you wish to continue enforcement of the PCN, consider this a formal request for the following evidence:

A copy of the original PCN

Photos showing the PCN attached to my vehicle

Copies of photographs of service of the PCN

Copies of photographs of the alleged contravention.

A copy of the CEO's notes.

The full PCN ticket history report.

Full tribunal disclosure of the parking warden’s notes and beat area, together with evidence that the ticket was correctly served.

The traffic order of the road of the alleged contravention.

Please also provide the number of Reg 10 PCNs issued in the last 3 or 6 months due to motorists driving away before a PCN could be issued.

Regarding the above PCN this request is not a challenge but necessary to enable me to make a decision as to whether to pay or challenge the notice.

Please provide the information requested ASAP so that the 14 day reduced payment period is not affected.

Please also provide copies of all photographs and a copy of the relevant TRO that covers the parking bay.

................................................................................


I have also posted the pictures they have on the website below that do indeed show the ticket! which is a bummer!.... any other ideas on this? Becasue they have pulled a fast one i really want to win this! lol rolleyes.gif












Thanks in advance for your help
hcandersen
Not too helpful - you've set them a large task, much of which is irrelevant such as a photo of a non-existent PCN. We always advise to come back here before firing off requests etc. But we are where we are.

They've got the necessary photos. The key issue now is whether the CEO had "begun to prepare" the PCN. This must be that data relating to the contravention had actually been entered into the HHC. It does not cover observation and taking photos.

So you really want the log to show that he had begun to create a PCN which had to be cancelled later. And the order which establishes the contravention at that location.

Who's the person in the photo - is it the driver?

HCA
Martie
Ok i will next time....

I imagine it is a case of waiting for what they come back with then is it? with regards to the log

Yes the image does show the driver.

Thanks for your info HCA
Martie
Can anyone give me an update on this? on what i should do huh.gif
hcandersen
There's not a lot to do. You've requested info, you now wait. The 14-day period ends on 12 July.

As regards the photos, we can see that the vehicle was in situ at 14.28.20 and that you appear to be getting in to the car. As regards chronology, there is no more evidence to show when you drove away. But that time is important because the PCN is only valid if the CEO had begun to prepare it before you drove away.

If the CEO is unable to affix the PCN to the vehicle or hand
it to the driver then clear and detailed evidence should be
recorded. Notes should be kept of the point of the issuing
process at which the vehicle left the scene, as well as all
details of any conversations with the driver, and what
attempts were made to serve the PCN
.


So, can you recall when you left the scene?

HCA

This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2024 Invision Power Services, Inc.