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Mosaka
Hi All,

Thank you for any advice in advance.

Clean license from day 1. I hired a shortwheel van on Friday 17th of June to take some stuff up with the father in law and his wife to lincolnshire.
30 minutes before desitnation i got pulled up by the police and was to told to switch the engine off and go and sit in the back of their car.

I did this of course and I was then informed as to why i was stopped. the police officer mentioned that I was exceeding 30mph as doing 39-40 mph and there will not be able to give me a slap on the wrist or put me on the speed awareness course, I was shocked first of all the I was stopped and I know 100% that I was not doing that speed but what was i able to do other than recieve this ticket.

I asked do they have any video evidence of me being recorded at the said indicated speed, they then said they have a still image of the number plate and that is all but they have followed me from a roundabout to the traffic light and I went through a school road at 11:30pm in excess of 30mph, whether they have a registered speed on me is unknown.

I then recieved this ticket from the police officer and she said you can sign for this but you do not have to . i read it and then decided to not sign and took this with me.

Other information,

She took my name, address, DOB (did not ask for drivers license) nor did they check anything in the van, nothing (seemed very strange)
I was driving a Hired Van, it was full of household products.
Friday 17th June must of have been the most rain that ever fell
It was night time
New location for me
I have a clean drivers license
Reciept indicates only "excess speed 30" and not the speed they say i was doing (39-40mph)

I have been informed by a number of friends that this sounds like a numbers game and i was just unlucky at the time. My drivers licence has been clean from the beginning, over 10 years.
One friend who is knowledgable (or i beleive us) in this area said to 100% take this to court and appeal against the 3 points and £60 and get them to produce evidence that the car speed gun was calibrated on the day, (written proof has to be evident for this to be acknowledged).

I will be going to court to appeal and fight my corner as I 100% truthfully was not speeding, but does it sound like I have a case to go by or do I just accept the 3 points and £60.

I look forward to your facts/advice?
I am Weasel
Others more knowledgeable than me will be along to comment but here are your options as I see them

Pay the £60 and get 3 points
Fight and win = no points, but what about the costs involved in fighting the case - your time, plus a day off to attend court etc
Fight and lose = ££££ plus 3 points or more on your license

You might be right in your assertion that the police will need to demonstrate that the gun was calibrated & used properly, but how confident are you that they won't be able to do this. The police have long been aware that people might want to challenge them and so are pretty meticulous in my experience about making sure that these "loopholes" are closed
Gan
The opinion of two police officers that you were speeding is enough to convict. They don't even need the speed gun.

What exactly have they given you ? I assume it's not an FPN because they would need your licence. Have you been told to produce your licence at a police station and exchange it for an FPN ? Did you tell them that you were refusing an FPN and wanted it to go to court ?

I can't see much chance that you will convince the magistrates that you weren't exceeding 30 mph. Being realistic, your best option is to accept a £60/3 pts if offered. If it's not offered, plead Guilty and ask for the 60/3 that you would have normally received.
fossn
As stated above you do not need a speed reading if two officers say you were speeding.
However they did not ask for your licence and you did not surrender it so you cannot be issued with an FPN. You must be issued with a notice which invites you to surrender your licence at a station of your choosing. Did this happen?
If so you have to produce your licence within the 7 days and you will be issued with an FPN.
you then have 28 days to decide whether to pay or go to court.
If you go to court the officers will probably make statements which will be disclosed to you before the hearing.
you can also request they attend.
however, as also mentioned above, you are racking up costs.
Its up to you.
The Rookie
How did they measure your speed? If its a follow check, they'll either have a full video or nothing at all, if they have a full video you could ask for it to be disclosed and see if the check was performed properly, if there is no video you'll have a very tough time convincing a court you were not speeding at all, especially as you don't appear to know what speed you were doing.

Pretty silly not to accept the course I think.

Simon
Pete D
What 'exactly' have you been issued with. Pete D
Mosaka
Hi All and thanks for the quick replies.

I failed to mention that they issued me with a ticket and that i have to go to a police station of my choice where they will give me three points and 60 pound fine withing 7 days.

I was not offered to go on a speeding course.!!!

I asked them what evidence do they have on me that i was speeding. was it a video i asked???, they said no and it was them following me, but i know that they were not following me for very long. maybe 30 seconds at max but i was constantly checking my mirrors as it was not my car and a van rental.

Surely I can fight this out.

Also I can hand on heart say i was driving at 30-33 maximum. but of course this will not go down in court in my favour or measurable.

The same friend that suggested i get them to provide me with the calibration, mentioned that if i pay the 60 fine but then go to court, it might make it look like that i am prepared to pay the fine but not take the 3 points and therefore not accept anything.


"The opinion of two police officers that you were speeding is enough to convict. They don't even need the speed gun." isnt this my word against there's or is it because they are law?

Also as I decided not sign and left the car, I did not say to them that I will see them in court just incase they had things to do to make sure that i could not win this (i.e. get gun calibrated etc)
but on the reciept it does say fill here if i want to go to court.

Another thing: I was only able see on their screen was a picture of the van's plate amongst others. the picture i am sure if zoomed out cannot show where i was nor did it show the speed on it (this is what i saw, unless there is another menu or an program on there that is government approved)
Gan
The FPN system is an opportunity to dispose of the matter without going to court. Once you've paid the matter is closed.

In principle, the opinion of any two witnesses that you were speeding is enough - nothing to do with "They are the Law". The court would conclude that as experienced officers they were well qualified to judge that you were travelling faster than 30 mph. You have so far shown no evidence whatever to show that they were mistaken.

Take the FPN because your friend has the potential to cost you a lot of money.
BaggieBoy
This was clearly a "follow check" so forget any speed gun calibration records, simply not applicable.

So we have two BiB in an car, whose opinion was your vehicle was speeding, and this was confirmed by their speedo. My advice, take the FPN, unless they cock it up in court you won't get a better result.
The Rookie
So you admit doing 30-33mph, that is speeding and the court will then convict you and thank you for your admission of guilt, take the FPN offered!

Simon
Mortimer
Can the OP's statement of doing 30-33mph be taken as being only an admission of doing an "indicated" 33mph? This may or may not be the true speed, and therefore no admission of actual speeding has been made. An indicated 33mph on my car is 30mph according to my GPS.
Mosaka
I have admitted to the people on here that I was driving 30-33 mph but not to the police.

I said to the police

What evidence do you have on me
and explained what i was doing up here, and that i have a clean drivers licence and obey the law
took the reciept did not sign and got back in to the van.
Nothing else.

also I am not sure if this means anything but one of my friends recently got done a by speed gun on the motorway and he was doing 96mph. this was his fault and he admits this. however his receipt showed the police officer wrote 96MPH where as mine says exceed speed 30mph. now the fact they were saying i was doing 39-40 mph so they can put me on the FPN as anything lower would have meant the awareness or a slap on the wrist and that would have not been enough for them on the night.

point is they wrote on his 96 miles per hour and on mine they wrote exceed speed 30, yet verbally they said 39-40 could they not have wrote the same as what she said.

or is it once you exceed 30 thats all you have to write?
BaggieBoy
They only have to state the offence, i.e. exceeding a speed limit, no need to state what the limit was or what the detected speed was.
Gan
The OP could do with a bit less assistance from his friends and a bit more from St Jude Thaddeus.

Aretnap
QUOTE (Mosaka @ Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 13:52) *
now the fact they were saying i was doing 39-40 mph so they can put me on the FPN as anything lower would have meant the awareness or a slap on the wrist and that would have not been enough for them on the night.


You suggest that the police are keen to issue FPNs instead of speed awareness courses, but in fact the reverse is true as the police take a cut from the course fee, and many areas have recently increased the threshold for SACs precisely so that they can sell more of them.

Of course it's possible that if you failed the attitude test the police might have decided not to offer you a SAC because of that, but as a SAC is not part of any judicial process and entirely at the discretion of the police, not being offered one is not something you would have had any grounds for complaint about even had you been within the normal threshold. If all the courses in your area had been full, for example, you would not have been offered one.

If you take this to court and lose, then you can expect a bigger fine, costs, "victim surcharge" and possibly more points (depending on the exact speed alleged) than the cost of the fixed penalty. If your only line of defence is to cross your fingers and hope that the speed gun wasn't calibrated then I fear you're just going to earn yourself more expense and hassle.


baggins1234
QUOTE (Mosaka @ Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 13:52) *
I have admitted to the people on here that I was driving 30-33 mph but not to the police.

I said to the police

What evidence do you have on me
and explained what i was doing up here, and that i have a clean drivers licence and obey the law
took the reciept did not sign and got back in to the van.
Nothing else.


So...if you do take it to Court and you are asked under oath "were you speeding?" will you be telling the truth or will you commit perjury?

Its up to you but £60 and 3 points sounds a better bet.
Mosaka
It it comes down to it, I will say the maximum that I could have been doing it 33mph no more if they want that 10% difference but other than that yes i will tell them and yes i be under oath..

Like I said from the beginning I was not speeding and even at 33mph i should have gotten a slap on the wrist. I might sound like a lot of people that come on here and say they were not speeding.

but i have children, i have a mortgage, i have job i have a wife, i have so many things that are in my favour. i go out on regualr with them, i am the driver that does school drop offs, food shopping, going out etc so yes again and again i can happily and under oath tell them 33 was my maximum.

I also have had a clean driving licence since i got it and there maybe a few parking tickets, but they were always paid on the same day.

another thing ... I am not to answer to you.. you are not the judge.. i simply came on here for advice and you are judging me on a scene that i have taken time out to explain to people so if they also ever across something like this they will see it has been done and dusted. honest opinions is what i am looking for that is all.


its like you are atrying to catch me out when i am here to get advice.!
jobo
yes mate its a bit like that, but your getting honest opinio9n that on what you've told us, there is only a small chance of you being successful in court, even less so if you tell them you were doing 33 mph
I am Weasel
QUOTE
its like you are atrying to catch me out when i am here to get advice.!

Nobody is trying to catch you out here. You came here for advice and we have given it. We have outlined what the likely outcomes are; it is up to you what course of action you now take, but I expect that going to court will result in higher costs than the £60 and 3 points of a FPN
Mosaka
Well I thank all for the advice. I have a Solictor that specialises against fighting the police on hand and I will let you all know what the outcome is.!!

cabbyman
It's probably better that contributors try to 'catch you out' and you rehearse these arguments on here rather than have a CPS professional and two police officers confront you in court if you insist on going there. At least you're getting a good grilling to practice with.
Mosaka
well if you put it this way, then I apologise.. and did not mean to upset any of the helpers.

You mention two police officers will be against me and that will be enough to make a judge go against me.

I had my father in law and his wife in the Van with me at the time, if this a numbers game. can they not be my witnesses and say that I was doing thirty. or will the judge say that this is ludricous how can passengers be judging my speed or looking the speedometer all the time.

cabbyman
You may have hit the nail on the head there. I'm afraid I'm going to join the rising crescendo and advice you to take the FPN. However, it is your decision and I would ask that, if you do decide to go to court, please would you come back here and let us know the result. You could be offered a place in the Pepipoo hall of fame and receive a virtual T shirt.
jobo
QUOTE (Mosaka @ Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 15:53) *
well if you put it this way, then I apologise.. and did not mean to upset any of the helpers.

You mention two police officers will be against me and that will be enough to make a judge go against me.

I had my father in law and his wife in the Van with me at the time, if this a numbers game. can they not be my witnesses and say that I was doing thirty. or will the judge say that this is ludricous how can passengers be judging my speed or looking the speedometer all the time.


you were either speeding or you weren't, a defence that you were but weren't going that fast is still a guilty plea, a defence that you didnt think you were, but arnt really sure, isnt going to stand up against two copper who say you were

to have ANY chance, your going to have to start from a pretext of your certain you wernt and require the prosecution to prove you were, at that point its in the lap of the gods on the credability of you and your witnesses against the credibility of the police, with them having a head start, then the cps might only call one policeman, the one they did call might get acute appendicitis the day before( happened to me) or the court just might beleive you against the weight of evidence presented( also happened to me), but if your going to fight, its only fair to tell you the odds are against you, but yes you do have a chance
roadrunner 163
Some police forces do not offer speed awareness courses when stopped at the roadside by officers, only scammer vans and static cameras after NIPs are sent. All the begging and pleading will not get one offered in these situations as the option just does not exist.

I am assuming the car had CCTV from a previous comment about the reg being on the screen which suggest you may have been observed speeding by 2 officers, had it recorded and possibly measured by a VASCAR device.

If the finances are not a big issue to you then you have little to loose by fighting it in court as most likely that you will still only get 3 points on conviction in the mags but if the cash is tight take the FPN. Be very careful about employing a solicitor for such a minor offence as this could become very uneconomical. Going guilty at 31 will see you convicted and 3 points and £60 tends to be the lowest it goes in penalty's and that is seldom from the magistrates.


Mayhem007
Two officers in the car stating 39 to 40mph and issuing you with an FPN is a pretty good result, especially when they mention speeding past a school.

If you are correct in your assumption that your speedometer only ever read 33mph then arguably you were most likely on the brink of the limit and on the face of it your defence would be valid. If you were at anytime doing 1mph over the limit then unfortunately you are guilty of the offence. A prosecutor will be able to rip your witnesses part and put them through quite a stressful situation.

Dare say the prosecutor will go on about parallax error and ascertain if the witnesses watched your speedometer constantly as opposed to human nature of glancing at it occassionally.

If you accept the FPN its cost you 60 quid and 3points. Don't accept and then the courts may consider the 39-40MPH in an area where children are most likely to be and then thats when you pay the big bucks and then say why-o-why didn't I listen to the advice on pepipoo.

Your friends are talking absolute rubbish.

However, if you are adamant about pleading not guilty and you believe you are not guilty. Then perhaps further advice can be given when you get to that stage.
mickR
just want to pick up on one point
OP says he saw the reg plate on bibs "screen" if this was a non measuring device follow check why would they have the vehicle on screen? could it have been a shot from ANPR?
BaggieBoy
QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 20 Jun 2011 - 19:28) *
could it have been a shot from ANPR?

That would be my guess.
TheBeak
Trial costs of around £800 + income related fine + Victim Surcharge + 3 pts is a big gamble on a not very convincing argument.

Accept that your speed may just have drfited over 30mph and you got caught. Unlucky, but it happens. £60 + 3pts.

I know what I would be doing.
roadrunner 163
QUOTE (TheBeak @ Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 12:55) *
Trial costs of around £800



where on earth did you get that figure from???
Is this the actual costs or cost applied for by the prosecution?
ReggieRebel
Friday 17th June must of have been the most rain that ever fell
It was night time
New location for me


Would any of these detract from any case as the Prosecutors are likely to say speed should have been adjusted to take these factors into account?
sgtdixie
If there is a still photo it will be from an ANPR system. Most of these are linked to Provida/Cleartone etc speed detection meters. There is a better than even chance that the follow is on video which will show the Police car speedometer, GPS speed or a full time & distance check. All opf which I would expect would show excess speed.

If what you say about them being behind you for only 30 seconds, at 40 mph this is 1/3 of a mile which is 50% further than a certified check minimum.

It is likely the 2 BIB's are Traffic so are unlikely to make basic errors in their evidence for a simple speeder. If your passenegrs go to court and lie, (a video is hard to rubbish) the consequences for you will be as many have stated, for your passengers it can be soap on a rope time.

If you saw the Police car behind you for 30 seconds it is likely they were there for longer.

I often used to ask a simple question of someone caught speeding on video,"Do you want your video played to unsympathetic magistrates on a 50" plasma in court?"

After all if you tell a magistrate you saw a Police car behind you and that you were still doing 33mph they are not going to let you off.

My advice, take the £60 & 3 points, it will only get worse.
TheBeak
QUOTE (roadrunner 163 @ Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 13:53) *
QUOTE (TheBeak @ Tue, 21 Jun 2011 - 12:55) *
Trial costs of around £800



where on earth did you get that figure from???
Is this the actual costs or cost applied for by the prosecution?


Ballpark figure for a trial in the Magistrate's Court - Costs applied for by the CPS after guilty verdict following not guilty plea and trial.
Mosaka
No worries, I think even though I want to take this to court, it shows you guys know a hell of lot more than me and I thank everyone for the advice.

I am just awaiting to hear from a solictor who will come back to me tomorrow latest and I will let you all know the answer of they think I should do.

one thing that I wanted to ask. if i decide to go to court do I you still have:

pay the 60 fine upfront and get it back if it is thrown out
or to pay the fine before 28 days regardless
and also if i pay it does it mean that I am admitting to it.

very confusing this receipt???!!
mrh3369
You only pay if you are pleading guilty, if you take it to court you dont pay until you are found guilty and then you pay the fine and costs the court imposes and nothing if you are found not guilty.
Mayhem007
Your solicitor will advise you that you have good case and then will ask you for £300 when you lose.

Unfortunately he can only sum up the situation on your information and determination to fight the case.

He will not be privy to the prosecutions evidence until you plead not guilty, which then he can give further advice.

As soon as you entered into dialogue with the solicitor you have just increased your costs, whcih could rise exponentially as you go down the rabbit hole.

Our advice, no matter what he says, cut your costs and run.
The Rookie
If the Solicitor is a general one and not a motoring specialist you're wasting your time.

Simon
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (Mosaka @ Wed, 22 Jun 2011 - 11:16) *
if i decide to go to court do I you still have:

pay the 60 fine upfront and get it back if it is thrown out
or to pay the fine before 28 days regardless
and also if i pay it does it mean that I am admitting to it.
If you pay the £60, it means you don't have to go to court at all, even if you wanted to, and you get three points.


If you tell them you want to go to court (you have to tell them, not just do nothing) then you don't pay anything. If you then get found guilty the court will give you a fine (and points), and the fine will be noticeably more.

fossn
hi
I posted just after this was listed and have read through all the comments since.
to summarise:
the best advice on all the evidence available on this thread is take the points and fine.
BUT
the op wants to fight as an aggrieved party.
Likely result:
Much higher fine + costs + points.
Conclusion
Its hard to accept a stitch up whether perceived or real. However that would be the best course of action. Honest. We've all had to accept such a situation at some time in our lives.
Gan
I only joined PPP when one of the baby Gans was stitched up.

If even one driver comes out ahead as a result, I've redressed the balance.
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