tooter
Fri, 17 Jun 2011 - 22:26
Hi
I drive a taxi (Black Cab) in Manchester. I recently stopped within a restricted stopping zone outside a school to let my passenger out of the cab. Camera enforcement was in place and as a result the registered keeper/owner of the vehicle received a penalty charge notice £35.00 or £70.00 after 28days. I am the driver of this cab but not the owner and I was responsible for the offence. I can claim the penalty charge fees back via my trade union membership but will need the PCN made out to me and not some other person (The owner).
I contacted the council and told them that I am guilty of this offence and would they re-issue the PCN to me and not the owner. They have refused to do this and say that the owner is responsible for this offence.
Surely they cannot legally prosecute the owner and refuse to accept my admission.
Any advice or comments would be appreciated or shared experiences will be of value.
Many Thanks
southpaw82
Fri, 17 Jun 2011 - 23:30
QUOTE (tooter @ Fri, 17 Jun 2011 - 23:26)
Surely they cannot legally prosecute the owner and refuse to accept my admission.
Yes, they can and in fact have to. Responsibility for the penalty charge lies with the owner unless the vehicle is hired under a recognised agreement.
clark_kent
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 11:40
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 00:30)
QUOTE (tooter @ Fri, 17 Jun 2011 - 23:26)
Surely they cannot legally prosecute the owner and refuse to accept my admission.
Yes, they can and in fact have to. Responsibility for the penalty charge lies with the owner unless the vehicle is hired under a recognised agreement.
That is only if a) there is an agreement that satifies the regulations and b) the owner transfers liability, if the owner pays there is not much the OP can do.
tooter
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 12:39
If the owner admits liability for this offence by paying the pcn, does this not mean he is committing perjury. Seems like a strange form of justice that will prosecute an innocent party.
Thanks for your replies and it seems like I will need to take this matter up with my trade union in order to claim back my costs.
Isn't local government a joy to deal with
Many Thanks
tooter
clark_kent
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 13:04
QUOTE (tooter @ Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 13:39)
If the owner admits liability for this offence by paying the pcn, does this not mean he is committing perjury. Seems like a strange form of justice that will prosecute an innocent party.
Thanks for your replies and it seems like I will need to take this matter up with my trade union in order to claim back my costs.
Isn't local government a joy to deal with
Many Thanks
tooter
No he is not commiting perjury he is paying the PCN anyone can pay the PCN even I could pay the PCN if I was feeling generous. No one is being prosecuted the owner of the vehicle is liable for any penalties just as he is liable to ensure the vehicle is taxed etc, if you are the owner of a vehicle and feel the system is unfair you have the option of not allowing anyone else to drive it.
marvin28
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 13:34
Check there is an upright sign showing "No stopping" and the hours of the restriction. Without this, yellow zig zags are advisory only.
tooter
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 13:42
Hey! that is really generous of you clark_kent I will send you the details. Seriously though all I want is for the council to bill me for my wrong doings. I think that is not too much to ask. I hate manchester council with a passion.
Thanks again for your replies
Tooter
Bogsy
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 13:48
Can you link us to the location where the contravention occurred via google street view? How long were you stopped for?
tooter
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 13:52
Hi Marvin
I have checked the signs and the road markings and all check out ok. It was just after 8am (8.02) in the morning and there was not a soul in sight so I did not give it a second thought. I assumed that the stopping restrictions would not come into force till later but the signs are marked up at 8 am as I found out later. I am guilty and should be shipped off to australia for this serious crime and so should the owner as he is obviously as guilty as I am. Bring back the death penalty I say.
Thanks
Tooter
tooter
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 14:18
Hi Bogsy
Just had a look on google maps and the school is Manley Park Primary School, College Road, Manchester M16. I was stopped for definately less than 1 minute, just long enough to take payment for journey and give any change, I did not make a note of the time as I did not realise I was committing an offence.
Thanks
Tooter
Bogsy
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 14:49
Do you know if the camera enforcement was by fixed CCTV or a mobile car?
bama
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 15:42
QUOTE (tooter @ Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 14:52)
Hi Marvin
I have checked the signs and the road markings and all check out ok.
have to ask as you are a new poster.
how do you know they are all okay. Are you totally familiar with the TSRGD ? (and the subsequent changes to it)
tooter
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 17:02
Hi Bogsy
Not 100% sure if fixed camera or mobile camera was used and does not say so on the pcn. I can only add that the email reply I received from the council, refers to the fact that I drove away from the scene before the notice could be made out and attached to my vehicle. I was not aware that secret agents were lurking in the bushes and ready to pounce on people getting about their lawful employment.
With this added twist on this story (leaving crime scene) I am now beginning to realise the implications of my illegal activities and can only hope that internet access is allowed in our high security institutions.
Thanks for your interest
Tooter
southpaw82
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 17:07
Rather than allow this thread to roll on for no good reason, I'll ask you this: will the owner of the cab pay the penalty charge or will they let you fight it for them? Once we have an answer to that question (and only then) can we move on to examining the facts and the law.
tooter
Sat, 18 Jun 2011 - 17:17
Hi Marvin
I am not familiar with regulations regarding these type of offences, but went round to the school (stopped on opposite side of the road this time, honest I did) and seen road markings and prohibit times on yellow board. I do not know if these comply with regulations but naively assume that my wonderful city council would not be wrong or would they hhmmmmm!
Thanks for your interest
tooter
Hi southpaw82
I will not see owner till wednesday of next week (he is away for long weekend). I think he will let me fight this grievance but will need to ask him first.
Thanks for your interest
tooter
tooter
Sun, 19 Jun 2011 - 17:44
New train of thought.
I rent this cab on the day shift for 52 weeks per year. I do not have a written hire agreement but my weekly rent is tax deductable so therefore I am thinking that I have a hire agreement although not written. Should this be acceptable by the council then I assume that they will be obligated to re-direct the fixed penalty to me. If need be, we could quickly draw up an agreement.
Your views will be useful
Thanks
tooter
Bogsy
Sun, 19 Jun 2011 - 17:52
It may be worth the cab owner sending a representation on the ground that the vehicle is subject to a lease/hire agreement that exceeds 6 months and to then provide your name and address. The council will then have to decide whether to reject the claim or accept it and issue you with an NtO. If at the same time the cab owner sends a letter from you confirming leasing/hiring the vehicle at the material time then this should ease acceptance.
Michael Gibson
Sun, 19 Jun 2011 - 22:06
If appealed, the first port of call would be details of the calibration for the device that provided the time reading of 0802 as this is too close to 0800 for comfort
tooter
Fri, 24 Jun 2011 - 17:59
Hi again
Spoke to owner of cab and he said fight it. I have submitted an appeal and included a hire agreement and a letter from myself saying that I am responsible for the offence and will pay any charges but they must address the pcn to myself.
Hope this works
Thanks for all your advice and I will let you know outcome of the appeal.
Tooter
clark_kent
Fri, 24 Jun 2011 - 19:23
QUOTE (tooter @ Fri, 24 Jun 2011 - 18:59)
Hi again
Spoke to owner of cab and he said fight it. I have submitted an appeal and included a hire agreement and a letter from myself saying that I am responsible for the offence and will pay any charges but they must address the pcn to myself.
Hope this works
Thanks for all your advice and I will let you know outcome of the appeal.
Tooter
You cannot appeal only the registered keeper can appeal a CCTV PCN and they should have done so and nominated you as the hirer and the NTO would have simply been reissued in your name.
emanresu
Sat, 25 Jun 2011 - 05:48
Just to add to CK's point, everything is addressed to the owner so you could get them to send another letter based on Bogsy's point in #17. (Its the way the law has been framed).
If the council ignore the second letter they should the send the owner what is called a Notice of Rejection (NoR). If they accept it you will get your own PCN/NTO.
Either way come back with a scan of the council's reply as they often b*lls up the process and you may even get off with all of it. Its worth fighting as you are in for the full amount now.
spaceman
Sat, 25 Jun 2011 - 07:30
QUOTE (tooter @ Fri, 24 Jun 2011 - 18:59)
Hi again
Spoke to owner of cab and he said fight it. I have submitted an appeal and included a hire agreement and a letter from myself saying that I am responsible for the offence and will pay any charges but they must address the pcn to myself.
Hope this works
Thanks for all your advice and I will let you know outcome of the appeal.
Tooter
Hope this works for you.
Remember, this will only work under the Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000 if the vehicle is hired for less than six months and the hirer has signed a statement of liability for penalty charges. Only then can liability for any penalty charge be transferred from the hire company, as the owner of the vehicle, to the hirer of the vehicle.
hcandersen
Sat, 25 Jun 2011 - 07:55
The nub of this problem is, apparently, what you posted in #1 - you cannot claim the penalty charge under your TU cover unless you have, effectively, an invoice.
IMO it is improbable that your narrow interpretation is correct. It is common practice amongst cabbies that they do not own their vehicles and, given the ever-present hazard of getting penalty charges in exactly these circumstances i.e. no "PCN", it beggars belief that such a precise exclusion would apply. I think we're sending hares running all over the place because of this.
Find out the PCN number, send off a cheque to the council for the appropriate amount, get a receipt from them and the PCN from the owner and send to your insurance company.
If they won't pay, I'd think about another insurer!
HCA
tooter
Tue, 28 Jun 2011 - 21:09
Hi again
The council seem to have accepted my appeal. They replied with the owners name at the top of the reply but addressed it to me in my name. The reply reads at top Mr XXXXXXXXX (owner) v MANCHESTER CITY COUNCIL
and then goes on to my name Dear Mr XXXXXXXX (driver)
A decision is not expected before 26th July.
Fingers crossed
tooter
hcandersen
Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 08:41
Decision on what? Most of your posts state unequivocally that you committed the offence and that you've communicated this to the council on at least 2 occasions.
??
HCA
tooter
Wed, 29 Jun 2011 - 22:31
Hi HCA
Yes you are right, I have admitted the offence.
The appeal is that:- The owner of the vehicle is not responsible for this offence as the vehicle is on permanent hire to myself and therefore I am responsible for payment of any fines and as such any pcn should be directed to me and not the owner.
I expected the council to readily accept my view and comply with what I think is not an unreasonable request. The only recourse on the council is via an appeal therefore I have been forced to go down that route.
All in all a bit of a storm in a tea cup.
Thanks for your interest and advice
tooter
hcandersen
Thu, 30 Jun 2011 - 09:49
I think you're playing with fire as IMO you have no legal status in this matter until the owner has made formal reps which the council has accepted and sent a NTO to you. Between the two of you IMO you're in danger of missing deadlines and finding the penalty charge surcharged.
The council would be foolish to accept the "reps" of the owner, which AIUI you wrote, without the benefit of a copy of the hiring agreement which makes you responsible in law because, if they do, they don't get another bite at the owner if you dispute the hiring which you could do because there isn't such an agreement. This would leave the council high and dry: they've accepted the owner's reps, and so can't go back to them (but see below), and can't pursue you because there's no legal liability that falls to you. What you're willing to do doesn't alter the legal position.
AIUI, if the owner or someone on their behalf who signs the declaration knowingly makes a false declaration then they could be prosecuted and receive a fine of up to £5000 if my memory serves me correctly.
But you carry on.
HCA
tooter
Mon, 18 Jul 2011 - 23:47
Hi All
Just like to update you on my appeal to the adjudicator which reads as follows:-
The PCN is dated 26 May 2011 and was issued by post in respect of a
contravention on 18 May 2011 at 08:02 relating to vehicle XXXX XXX in College
Road for being stopped in a restricted area outside a school.
The council has decided not to contest this appeal. The adjudicator has therefore
directed that the appeal is allowed without consideration of any evidence or the
merits of the case.
The appellant is not liable to pay the outstanding penalty charge.I am now eagerly waiting for them to issue this pcn directly to me or maybe they won't, who knows!
So far so good and thanks to each of you for your advice and guidance.
tooter
SchoolRunMum
Tue, 19 Jul 2011 - 22:52
Interesting one and a good result for you! Well done!
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