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Mr Cellotape
Hi All,
My first post so please go easy. biggrin.gif

I have received the enclosed "Notice to Owner Final Reminder" from what would appear to be a private parking company.



I'm concerned as I didn't recieve a PCN on my vehicle on the date stated although my vehicle was parked within the car park. It was dark and wet when the driver returned to the vehicle and saw no parking ticket/clamp on car. dry.gif
If I haven't received a ticket to begin with am I liable for this?

The Ticket says "Out of Designated Space", so i'm going to pop down and have a look tomorrow, is there anything I need to check? Where do I stand legally with not being provided with parking ticket in the first place/possibly kids removing the ticket if actually provided? Where do I stand if the bays are poorly marked?

I know there is CCTV cameras in the car park, so I'm going to check their locations and for signage to check compliance with the requirements of the Information Commissioner, where do I stand with viewing the CCTV from that day? I would of thought that they would provide some sort of photographic evidence, how do I go about getting this?

I'm not 100% sure the company are legitamate, however given that it is a train station car park I need to be sure of where I stand with all this.

I have the original ticket from the parking machine that bought on the day if needed.

I find it very strange that there are such long timescales between the alleged parking infringement and the notice arriving today. It's been that long that I have sold the car and bought a new one.

Is the sum of £120 valid for parking "Out of Designated Space"? I’m at pains to see how not parking in a bay could of cost them £120, It was parked in what appeared to be a space and was clearly “pay and displayed”

What are my chances of winning this or would I be better off bending over and getting stuffed for £120 for something I know nothing about? I know there are a whole heap of queries there and I'm sorry to be asking so many, I would like to resolve this a quickly as possible and move on.

Thanks for your time.

Steve
southpaw82
When dealing with "tickets" from private parking companies (PPCs) our advice is to ignore them. For more information about this recommendation and private parking companies, click this link.
axeman
Simple, file the letters and IGNORE, do not contact them.
JWB12
I have received a virtually identical PCN today through the post for parking at a train station car park - including all dates.

Mr Cellotape, I have sent you a private message.
axeman
QUOTE (JWB12 @ Thu, 28 Apr 2011 - 23:51) *
I have received a virtually identical PCN today through the post for parking at a train station car park - including all dates.

Mr Cellotape, I have sent you a private message.


please start your own thread
bama
JWB12 may well be genuine but I have to add the usual caution about sharing details with brand new unproven posters.
PPCs are known to drive by and do such things.

I am sure that JWB12 will understand my cautionary advice.
Mr Cellotape
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 29 Apr 2011 - 01:11) *
JWB12 may well be genuine but I have to add the usual caution about sharing details with brand new unproven posters.
PPCs are known to drive by and do such things.

I am sure that JWB12 will understand my cautionary advice.


Thanks for the advice and thanks to everyone else above for the advice.

I have carried out a thorough search on this excellant site concerning this issue and all I can say is wow..... What a site. biggrin.gif

I am now actually looking forward to the letter chain I'm set to recieve over the next couple of months..... laugh.gif

I will keep you all informed as I receive the paper trail.... rolleyes.gif

Steve.
JWB12
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 29 Apr 2011 - 00:11) *
JWB12 may well be genuine but I have to add the usual caution about sharing details with brand new unproven posters.
PPCs are known to drive by and do such things.

I am sure that JWB12 will understand my cautionary advice.


Yes, of course. I used a PM to ensure that extra details which Mr Cellotape might find helpful (but he himself didn't reveal) were not in the public domain. I only wrote I'd sent a PM on the thread as it's a new member to alert them to it. But the fact that a PCN landed on my doormat on the same day (e.g. yesterday) and was virtually identical in all respects, including reminder issue date and contravention date makes me suspect that the original issuer (who does have a contract with the train station operator) wasn't involved at all and knows nothing about it.

It seems someone has just noted a load of reg numbers in one or several train station car parks, applied to the DVLA for licence details and then hey presto a demand for £120 turns up in the post.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (JWB12 @ Fri, 29 Apr 2011 - 11:35) *
It seems someone has just noted a load of reg numbers in one or several train station car parks, applied to the DVLA for licence details and then hey presto a demand for £120 turns up in the post.




Perfectly possible - any PPC could theoretically try that - but just ignore it if there is no mention of Railway Bylaws and Magistrates Court.
bama
can't see any VAT on that <cough> 'invoice'. smile.gif
see the thread about VCS and the Vatman (misnamed as Excel in thread title)

What do the signs in the car park say ?
Mr Cellotape
I enclose some of the parking signs as noted tonight..... at least the relevant bits from them.







As you can see they mention railway bylaws but not specificly mention what those bylaws are? happy.gif

The signs also say, "Motorised vehicles may be parked subject to available space and the appropriate charge being paid". Given that statement I cannot see how the vehicle could of been "Out of designated space" when they clearly sat "available space" but do not then specify what they mean by available space?

Probably me being pedantic, however surely the least they should do is define what they mean?

I also looked at many of the spaces and in many cases the white lines defining spaces are worn to a point of the defined spaces not being clear.
bama
Byelaw cases (very very rare) go to mags court, no money on that for a PPC. Plus a real byelaw ticket (very very rare) creates statutory liability not contract (or tort) liability. So its the usual hogwash.

Thats a CP+ sign. WTF is Going on ? is this mob jumping in on CP+ turf ?


Gan, these the same people at the back of it ?
southpaw82
Even bigger argument than usual for "no contract".
Mr Cellotape
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Fri, 29 Apr 2011 - 20:47) *
Even bigger argument than usual for "no contract".


On this Basis if there was an original ticket it would appear the CP+ have sold on the debt to PCSL???????

I understand that they are supposed to notify the vehicle keeper/driver of the above before they sell the debt.

This just gets better.
JWB12
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 29 Apr 2011 - 19:42) *
Byelaw cases (very very rare) go to mags court, no money on that for a PPC. Plus a real byelaw ticket (very very rare) creates statutory liability not contract (or tort) liability. So its the usual hogwash.

Thats a CP+ sign. WTF is Going on ? is this mob jumping in on CP+ turf ?


Gan, these the same people at the back of it ?


This is what I suspect has happened. I don't believe CP+ (CP PLUS LTD) has played any part in this. They are listed as the Issuer on the PCN I received (which the OP blanked, but I assume is the same on his PCN) and the Penalty Charge Notice No. begins with CP follow by a string of digits.

So either CP PLUS LTD forgot to attach a PCN notice on the same day to two cars (not sure if it is the same station car park) which were displaying valid tickets anyway (I still have mine), or, as seems more likely to me someone has trawled the car park(s) and then got car reg details and made up contraventions and just bypassed CP PLUS LTD. That someone was either acting directly for Parking Control Services Ltd, selling on the information or purporting to be CP PLUS LTD when dealing with Parking Control Services Ltd.

CP PLUS LTD has nothing to gain from what has happened and lots to lose. They have seemingly turned down the chance to recover the PCN which has purported to have been issued directly by them, then got a third party involved and the only two cases we know about had valid tickets. The contract for train station car parks isn't going to be small beer to CP PLUS LTD.

I could ring CP PLUS LTD and quote the reference and see if they can confirm my car reg and/or tell me if it is a valid reference etc, but I'm no expert and the advice here is to ignore everything, which is what I will do.

I've just seen that an experienced poster has said I should start a new thread. I don't think this is necessary but I won't comment further unless the chain of events for me differs from the OP as and when he posts updates.
southpaw82
Why not make a request to the DVLA to see who obtained the RK details?
bama
Agreed. that the way to go.

don't fill in a V888 form - the dVLA will probably tell you you need to, that is bollocks and them just looking to charge you a fee.
its just a subject access request and is free
see
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...icle&id=102
Gan
QUOTE (bama @ Fri, 29 Apr 2011 - 20:42) *
Byelaw cases (very very rare) go to mags court, no money on that for a PPC. Plus a real byelaw ticket (very very rare) creates statutory liability not contract (or tort) liability. So its the usual hogwash.

Thats a CP+ sign. WTF is Going on ? is this mob jumping in on CP+ turf ?


Gan, these the same people at the back of it ?


More likely that CP+ are using Parking Collection Services as a Debt Recovery Agent. The PCS Sic description is "Other Monetary Intermediation"

The company has a common director and address with our old friends Debt Recovery Plus (see also bottom corner of letter). DR+ are well-known for buying alleged debts for peanuts and trying to collect.

As Mr C has already commented, if they have bought the debt they can't enforce it unless the original owner informed you in writing about the sale (S136 Law of Property Act).


roythebus
It seems strange how they quote Railways Byelaws then go on to issue PPC invoices. The two are incompatible.
Gan
QUOTE (roythebus @ Sat, 30 Apr 2011 - 08:04) *
It seems strange how they quote Railways Byelaws then go on to issue PPC invoices. The two are incompatible.


Most of the public can't tell the difference between a council ticket and a PPC.

How many will understand that, although the ticket mentions Railway Byelaw powers and £1000 fines, the PPC has chosen not to use them or they don't apply to the alleged contravention at all?
Mr Cellotape
Thanks for all the comments so far.... I have the next letter so am posting that below...




As you can see it would now appear to be another company (Debt Recovery Plus Ltd - well known on this site!) so yet again the alleged parking issue has been sold onto another company without sending any details to the registered keeper.

I'm having real issues with this letter as I cannot decide what I should do........ I was planning on a paper aeroplane but have never been any good at making them fly.. biggrin.gif

I look forward to your comments.

Mr C. rolleyes.gif
Gan
As per my previous post :

Parking Collection Services and Debt Recovery Plus share a common director.

Strangely enough I was checking up the DR+ accounts this morning. Have now had a look at PCS.

If I were the cynical or suspicious type I would now be quite curious about a couple of items.

It's a familiar DR+ template letter by the way. Completely safe to ignore.
axeman
why would a debt collection, recovery, investigation, bailiff services agency belong to a parking trade body (BPA) ohh, could it be because its just another desk in the same office as PCS, so the advice wont change, IGNORE the clowns.
Mr Cellotape
Hi all,
Well another week and another letter........enclosed below.




I'm starting to enjoy receiving these biggrin.gif

As usual it's a standard letter with lots of threats of what they may do.... rolleyes.gif


I'm thinking of starting an origami collection and enclose a link to the first one i'm going to try. http://www.origami-instructions.com/easy-o...i-elephant.html

laugh.gif
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