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Full Version: Council pcn, can I appeal? (Edited - new pics)
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mark312
Hi, hoping someone can help with this.

I've received a pcn on a council car park, not sure if an appeal is worthwhile.

Once every two weeks,for the last five or six years, I've parked on the same car park at one of my regular workplaces. Three years ago when they last increased charges, they put a clear notice up giving plenty of warning for the increase, which I have been looking out for ever since, in case they increase them again. I usually check the charge each time as well, but on Saturday (day before yesterday) - forgot to check the charge... ...lo and behold I receive my first parking ticket in over 15 years.

My gripe is that the advance notice they put up three years ago was still there two weeks ago, showing the last increase in Dec 2007. My question is - do councils have to give some notice to increase charges, or can they put them up immediately and the onus is on us all to check the charge every time you park?

I am kicking myself for not checking properly, and plan to appeal anyway on the grounds that I am a law abiding citizen and have just been caught by surprise. Slim chance but worth a try...if there is some technicality such as notice should be given then I'll try that instead.

Thanks for your help.
bama
you got pics of the dec 2007 signs ? (hint)
Neil B
PCN location, times, dates , etc. all obscured. Doesn't leave a lot to work with does it!!
mark312
Sorry.

Reading through the notes before I posted, it clearly says to delete all information which a council worker browsing this site might use to identify my case.......that's why I blacked all the identifying detail out. Will gladly repost the pics - what info am I safe to leave on?

Re the DEC 2007 charges increase - the council conveniently removed that three year old notice, presumably when they posted the new charges on the board. Wouldn't be sensible for them to leave it up I guess...
Neil B
QUOTE (mark312 @ Tue, 19 Apr 2011 - 17:20) *
Will gladly repost the pics - what info am I safe to leave on?


All of the ones I mentioned.

i don't know why the guide says that.

i don't hold with this view that such basic info (essential to us) can harm you in any way. If a Council were to identify you and change their approach because of posts here I would imagine that is in some way unlawful.
Apart from that, if you have a case there is diddly squat they can do about it from anything they glean here.
-
mark312
Edited pics now added, thanks.
bama
you got pics of the dec 2007 signs ? (hint)
mark312
QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 20 Apr 2011 - 18:21) *
you got pics of the dec 2007 signs ? (hint)


Sorry, I am a bit thick here obviously...does (Hint) mean that if I haven't taken pics of a parking sign (why would I?) then I've no chance of proving they gave notice last time and therefore cannot realistically expect to win any appeal?
bama
the hint is that such pics are a very good idea.
as for the "why would I" ? - for evidence that you can use.
confusing/invalid signage can be a very strong appeal point
mark312
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 26 Apr 2011 - 18:26) *
the hint is that such pics are a very good idea.
as for the "why would I" ? - for evidence that you can use.
confusing/invalid signage can be a very strong appeal point


Sorry, I should have explained my "Why would I" comment. I'm not in the habit of taking photo's of car park pay and display signage in case of future appeals, so when the council put the charges up, and removed the three year old 2007 notice, I had no chance of taking the photo because the sign had already gone. If I'd known beforehand......!! (Wouldn't have been given the ticket anyway!)

I was directed to this forum because somebody suggested I had a case for appeal, as the council gave no prior warning that was visible to me (they may have announced in local press, website etc - but I don't live locally).
My final question before I give up and pay up - does anyone have any constructive advice that would help me decide whether an appeal is worthwhile?

Wobba
Is this the place?

alloageorge
ticked looks ok and your pay and display
expired 3 hours early(according to council).
council normally preserve your discount if
you appeal within 14 days.you could try
appealing due to poor signage and see if
they cock up with the nto.
mark312
QUOTE (Wobba @ Tue, 26 Apr 2011 - 23:14) *
Is this the place?


The very same! Guessing this was taken a good while ago?

The ticket machine is out of sight behind the trees...

QUOTE (alloageorge @ Wed, 27 Apr 2011 - 00:30) *
ticked looks ok and your pay and display
expired 3 hours early(according to council).
council normally preserve your discount if
you appeal within 14 days.you could try
appealing due to poor signage and see if
they cock up with the nto.


Presume "nto" is notice to owner? So if I appeal, ask them to preserve the discount pending the outcome of the appeal, then pay up promptly if unsuccessful it's probably worth a try...?
Wobba
QUOTE (mark312 @ Wed, 27 Apr 2011 - 20:22) *
QUOTE (Wobba @ Tue, 26 Apr 2011 - 23:14) *
Is this the place?


The very same! Guessing this was taken a good while ago?

The ticket machine is out of sight behind the trees...

QUOTE (alloageorge @ Wed, 27 Apr 2011 - 00:30) *
ticked looks ok and your pay and display
expired 3 hours early(according to council).
council normally preserve your discount if
you appeal within 14 days.you could try
appealing due to poor signage and see if
they cock up with the nto.


Presume "nto" is notice to owner? So if I appeal, ask them to preserve the discount pending the outcome of the appeal, then pay up promptly if unsuccessful it's probably worth a try...?



That is an old photo, yea, on Google Street Maps...can you see the old info about the charges going up?

NtO is indeed Notice to Owner.

They should automatically preserve the lower charge amount, assuming they state that on the PCN, if representations are made within 14 days.
Wobba
Right, I am very rusty at all this and I am sure someone will come along and tell me I am wrong lol....but...

That PCN refers to the TMA 2004, and as such the PCN correctly states the issuing officer as a 'Civil Enforcement Officer', and describes itself as a 'Parking Charge Notice'....but...

The (OFF-STREET PARKING PLACES AND CAR PARKS WITH DISABLED PARKING SPACES) ORDER 2002

The above PPO is the only document I could find relating to Hankinson Way off-road parking area. The document is a mess to be honest. I would double check with Salford Council but it looks to me like they have not updated it in some time. It still refers to :

'parking attendant' means a person authorised by or on behalf of the Council under Section
63A of the Act to supervise and enforce the restrictions imposed by this Order;

There are so many errors in that document, I am dubious as to whether it has not been superseded. If it has not, they can't enforce the PCN.

I may be wrong though.
mark312
Wobba - you are very helpful, thank you! No, the 2007 notice about parking charges increasing is too small, and out of sight on this picture anyway. Will try the points you mentioned in my appeal.

Mark
Wobba
Ask Salford Council for the relevant TRO and PPO first, before you appeal. It could just be the ones they have listed on the Adjudicators site have not been updated.

http://tro.parking-adjudication.gov.uk/files/SL02.pdf

^^
That's the only relevant one I can find.
mark312
Success! I challenged the pcn on the web form via the councils website, stating that :
I had not intended to avoid paying,
I paid what I thought was the correct fee from three years of paying the same fee,
I admitted I was in error for not checking the notice board,
I was not taking up any unused spaces as the car park is usually half empty,
There was no notice given on the car park for the increasd fees, and
I do not live locally so I couldn't have seen any notices in local newspapers etc.

I received a prompt, slightly terse, official letter stating that on this occasion they are cancelling the fine.

As there was no name on the letter I am unable to reply to say thank you, which I would like to do as a courtesy, however I am sure that they have better things to do than reading grateful public letters!
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