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Muggerbee
hi guys, obviously not my area of expertise but here it is :

My company just received a NIP from the BIB for the following :

Dangerous driving, careless driving and failing to report in a vehicle i was driving, I was advised of the complaint from the drivers wife (not in the vehicle) to my company on the same day and forwarded the following statement to my employers :

At approx xx.xx on the morning of xxth february 2011 I was driving xx Vehicle xx xx xxx a 44 tonne 6 x 2 Tractor unit and triaxle trailer combination unladen.

I left the site at ( xxxxxxxx Street) turning right onto the Axx xxxxxxxxRoad, At the junction with xxxxx xxxx ( a 2 lane traffic light controlled junction to allow left turns into xxxxx xxxx) traffic conditions were medium to heavy, road conditions wet and visibility average for the time of day and year and overcast weather.

I proceeded straight along the Axx ( which reverts to a single carriageway immediately after this junction ,picture attached) keeping a good distance between the vehicle and the kerb due to a combination of an uphill right hand bend and the presence of pedestrians on the footpath whilst maintaining a speed at or about the posted limit easily due to the unladen nature of the tractor/trailer combination.

Approximately 500 metres further along the Axx there is a traffic light controlled 2 lane junction with xxxxxxxxx road, as I approached this junction the lights changed to green and I used the right hand lane to continue, as there were vehicles indicating to turn left into xxxxxxxxxx road. Immediately after the traffic lights there is a road marking instructing traffic in the outside lane to move left, I complied with this before the road width reduced.

At this point i became aware of a dark coloured Smart car attempting to overtake me in this hazardous position, I therefore reduced road speed in order to allow the driver to complete this dangerous manoeuvre before they further endangered themselves or oncoming traffic. However the driver swerved sharply in front of my vehicle causing me to brake. I gave a single short blast on my horn to warn the driver of my proximity and resumed normal driving, at a point further down the road the driver of the Smart car began weaving, put on the vehicles hazard lights and gesticulated in an aggressive manner for me to pull over. As per standard advice I locked the drivers door of my vehicle (passenger side already locked) and when the other vehicle pulled over I overtook in order to avoid the potential violent confrontation that the mannerisms suggested. The vehicle then followed me for several hundred metres before i lost sight of it at xxxxxxxxxx.

The assertion of the other party was that i wiped out the side of his smart car and forced him into oncoming traffic on an uphill right hand bend on a single carriageway .

Obviously, in my opinion, this muppet tried to pull off an overtake in a car with about as much power as a mouses fart and seriously mucked it up. My employer has now had to give the plod my details, so whats the next course of action ??

Cheers
jobo
are you the driver here, ? what if anything have your employer done with the statment,, it reads from that that the complaint involves an accident taking place, was there any sugggextion that contact with anything took place( whilst you were driving ) as clearly it seems the smart car was trying to draw you attention to something
Muggerbee
The assertion is that i wiped out the smart car on an uphill right hand bend, then he overtook me at the next set of lights and politely requested me to stop and discuss :-), I would say that i would not even have felt said smart car whacking into a 16 ton unladen vehicle and what the **** was he doing trying to overtake on a single carriageway uphill bend ?? and who in their right mind pulls over when being aggressively gesticulated to ? generally, as a rule of thumb, to have an accident you have to hit something in it's rightful position .. or am i being thick ?? :-)
jobo
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Thu, 10 Mar 2011 - 16:59) *
The assertion is that i wiped out the smart car on an uphill right hand bend, then he overtook me at the next set of lights and politely requested me to stop and discuss :-), I would say that i would not even have felt said smart car whacking into a 16 ton unladen vehicle


the question wasnt would you,,, but DID you any any way suspect a collision had taken place, either through feeling contact or noticing the crumpled smart car
Muggerbee
@jobo

Nope, the first i was aware of the presence of said car was when it started behaving like kenneth noye. obviously at the alleged point of the incident, my attention would have been focussed on the immediate hazard of pedestrians on the footpath, not someone attempting an illegal manoeuvre.

in short, i'm quite confident of my driving at the time, just want to know how to proceed with this vexatious allegation
jobo
hmm, you avoiding answering, so il try from another point of view, the careless driving alligation is , in the absence of an independent wittness, largly down to your word against his and shgouldnt be that hard to see off, the failing to stop/report is your real problem, if you can convince the police/mags that you did not know an accident had taken place, then thats a defence, but you have the complication of the other driver trying to converse with you in a '' damaged'' car and if this could/should have triggered a concern an accident had taken place


you will get your own form and then you will proberbly be invited for interview,, if you attend,, then you can read out your account from the statement you have writen, perhaps with a few clarifications, i asked if your employer had forwarded the statement to the4 police ?
Muggerbee
ok, in points,

no my employer has not forwarded this to the police, the first official contact was the NIP

No, i know of no independent witness, as he obviously followed me down the road and therefore would not have had the opportunity to obtains such

re failing to stop, if for example a toddler on a trike bumped the back of your car as you were moving forward then that would be the effect of a smart car on a 44 tonne tanker so one would not be expected to notice it unless looking out for it

re conversing, gesticulating in an aggressive manner in a not obviously damaged car at road speeds does not imho signal to me " excuse me, we may have had a coming together, can we please exchange details" it says come and have a go if you think you're hard enough ..

in short, i felt nothing, saw nothing and the first inkling i had of any issue was when some **** carved me up then started acting like he wanted a fight, SOP in that situation is to lock the doors and leave it .

nothing evasive, i just expected you to be able to read the statement, like i said, i do parking around here, not wankers with an axe to grind trying to bankrupt me :-(

ta
jobo
your statment doesnt really cover that, and it needs to before you give it to the police
Muggerbee
it's a statement of fact, from the point of view that i wasn't aware of any accident, and if one happened it was somone hitting me from the rear during an overtaking move on an uphill bend ..
jobo
it was written for your employer and doesnt actually say you werent aware of an accident, though it may well imply that,
if you wish to use it for reading to the police, then you need to make very sure it clarifies all the questions they may want to ask you, before they actualy ask them, people can find themselves tripped and trapped in to all sorts of thing when interviewed with the tape running and thinking your way through any technical weakness in your story is not a bad thing

if you give the police evasive answers, they will be on to it in a shot
Muggerbee
ok got ya , bear in mind this was written immediately after the initial complaint from joe public, so is a real time version of events without me drawing on any supposition gleaned from an actual accusation and statements from anyone else. so if i was an actual traffic plod reading it and comparing it with the accusation from the other party, i would surely see that the other party had seriously messed up and was trying to cover his arse :-)
jobo
thats why im suggesting you may need to clarify certain matters, in the light of the knowedge you now have

as ive told you, i believe the failure to stop/report is your biggest weakness and this will run even if they accept the accident was his fault not yours
Muggerbee
that was my thinking :-( however if i was unaware of any accident and the complainant was 100 percent to blame for any damage added to the fact he behaved like the classic road rager us truckers see everyday ???? and i've a good mind to sue his ass off for the aggro he's caused me :-)
jobo
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Thu, 10 Mar 2011 - 19:09) *
that was my thinking :-( however if i was unaware of any accident and the complainant was 100 percent to blame for any damage ???? plus i've a good mind to sue his ass off for the aggro he's caused me :-)


there total seperate charges, one doesnnt prove or disprove the other, you would need to show it was reasonable that you were unaware, even taking into account his subsequent actions, im not saying you cant, ju8st that, that may well be the line of questioning, if you over do how much of a threat you thought he was to you, they will start asking you why you didnt report his actions to the police, if you didnt think he was a threat, why didnt you stop and see what he wanted
Muggerbee
simple answer, cos when you do 100 thousand miles a year in a truck you get that sort of incident every other week and you don't get involved .. just realised tho, the company only contacted me today to say they had the NIP and the incident was on the 11th feb ???
peterguk
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Thu, 10 Mar 2011 - 19:26) *
just realised tho, the company only contacted me today to say they had the NIP and the incident was on the 11th feb ???


What matters is when the RK received it.... Leasing company? not how long it's been sat on your employer's desk...
jobo
QUOTE (peterguk @ Thu, 10 Mar 2011 - 19:29) *
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Thu, 10 Mar 2011 - 19:26) *
just realised tho, the company only contacted me today to say they had the NIP and the incident was on the 11th feb ???


What matters is when the RK received it.... Leasing company? not how long it's been sat on your employer's desk...


accident, peter, it matters not when anyone recieved it

QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Thu, 10 Mar 2011 - 19:26) *
simple answer, cos when you do 100 thousand miles a year in a truck you get that sort of incident every other week


Devils advocate, so you gets lots of enraged driver claiming you cut them up, do you ?

nb you dont need to convince me, just think your way through it,

but i know from hard experiance that they will ask these leading questions
Muggerbee
see, parking and decrim is my forte :-( now i wish i lived in a country with a constitution lol :-) so, basically, sit tight, wait till the BIBs call up and then try to explain to them why a smart car should not really mess with the back end of a tanker ??? and why professional drivers don't stop for angry motorists when they've no apparent reason to expect to ???

@jobo

25 years without a point or endorsement, 1 minor bump in the last 20 years ( a bit of fence) exemplary driving record, holder of licences for 2/4 and lots of wheels so i'd say that I get a lot of drivers thinking they have right of way when i know full well it's mine, however, i've not hit any of them :-)

p.s.

is it possible to cut someone up on a single carriageway, when they're behind you and you're doing the speed limit ?? :-)
jobo
yep, thats just about the gist of it, get prepared and wait,, these are serious accusations and its only right the police give it a good investigation, unfortunetly that you

im not having a go mate, just doing your thinking for you, so your not caught unprepared
Muggerbee
appreciated m8 .. like i said, not my area really, and never realised i could just pick up the phone to the filth and say that registration number 123 abc just hit me and sodded off and it could cause this much crap :-( x maybe i should park outside his house till he goes to work, let him go within 6 feet of my car then get on the phone ?? lol
The Rookie
Sue him for what exactly? If there was a collision and he tried to get you to stop and you didn't, he is well within his rights to do what he has done.

Simon
Muggerbee
Simon

basically he tried a stupid manoevure, screwed it up and now wants to blame me .. as such his accusation is malicious and with intent to cause me harm and distress, he is also "publishing" a statement that may cause any right minded person to think less of me (libel) ,

okies, it wasn't a nip the company got , it was a S172.. just got mine now , obviously i don't want to make it easy, so do I Have to provide my DL number ? it only says should on the form.. Also . the road name is wrong, unless I had 2 contretemps in 5 minutes ?? , is that relevant ? if so , should I stay quiet ??

Cheers

x
peterguk
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Tue, 15 Mar 2011 - 14:34) *
Also . the road name is wrong, unless I had 2 contretemps in 5 minutes ?? , is that relevant ? if so , should I stay quiet ??


How "wrong" is the road name?
jobo
your going the right way to mess up a reasonable defence

if it can be shown he has made a false aligation then thats a criminal matter, not libel

and of course you did fail to stop, even if yoiu do have a stat defence, you still didnt stop

indeed, how wrong is the road name,,
Muggerbee
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 15 Mar 2011 - 15:00) *
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Tue, 15 Mar 2011 - 14:34) *
Also . the road name is wrong, unless I had 2 contretemps in 5 minutes ?? , is that relevant ? if so , should I stay quiet ??


How "wrong" is the road name?


well lets say if my reading of the situation is correct, the incident took place on "oxford road" which leads onto " whitney new road" and the s172 states the location as "whitney old road" which does exist but is another mile along ?? made up roads btw :-)
jobo
does it say the A333, whitney road,, did you drive on to whitney old road during your journey
Muggerbee
it says " is alleged to have committed the following offence (s) at "whitney old road oxford" .. just checked the maps and that road does terminate at a junction on my route about a mile further from where my reading of the incident was, however i would not have used it at any point , also the vehicle is sat tracked and logged.

Am i right in assuming that if i talk to the BIB to give them the full statement of events without actually tipping them off that the location is wrong then if they do go ahead I've got a pass ??
Muggerbee
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 15 Mar 2011 - 15:03) *
your going the right way to mess up a reasonable defence

if it can be shown he has made a false aligation then thats a criminal matter, not libel

and of course you did fail to stop, even if yoiu do have a stat defence, you still didnt stop

indeed, how wrong is the road name,,


Jobo . sorry missed this , you were in mid edit :-) his wife phoned up my company and told them i was all sorts of a charlie uniform, and also emailed them with the same allegations , re the failure to stop, i was in fear of physical violence from the aggressive actions of the car driver, was not aware of any accident (and thinking on, i'm wondering if i'm being used to claim for some previous damage, as there wasn't a mark on my very grubby vehicle) and the following vehicle disappeared about 500 yards from the police station, on the same road !, i'm actually a very courteous and proffessional driver and spend so much time looking in my mirrors i get neck strain, so still can't believe i had an accident without being aware !!
Muggerbee
So, send off the s172 in 3 weeks then wait and see ??
Glacier2
Have you received your own personal S172?
Muggerbee
Yep :-( sat on the desk in front of me .. dated 14 march




[img=http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/584/s172side1.th.jpg]


[img=http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5955/s172side2.th.jpg]
jobo
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Tue, 15 Mar 2011 - 15:17) *
i

Am i right in assuming that if i talk to the BIB to give them the full statement of events without actually tipping them off that the location is wrong then if they do go ahead I've got a pass ??


im in two minds if you should play clever with them or not,, as you were never at the named location


does the other wromg location share the same A road number,, is this A road number quoted on the nip,,
Muggerbee
different A road number, and A road number not quoted on the s172 request, the timing of the alleged offence would have made it near impossible to be at the location stated.. i know what you mean by playing clever but i'd rather have that one in the bag as an impossible locus if it goes to the beak.. obviously if i say it now then it's a no brainer to get the tippex out on a 172 but if it's on a nip or a summons then it's open warfare :-)
jobo
im not sure it, works that way,,, if you give a statment that the events happened, abet in a slightly different way to his version, a slightly different location isnt going to save you in court, i least i dont thing so ? though it could be used to tey and discredit the other driver

if you send the 172 back saying never been there, then they will need to establish the correct location and reissue or indeed charge you with the 172 offence or drop it

or you just play it sttraight and try and get the coppers onside

id be tempted to go for b,,, but im less than sure which is best,, see what others think
Muggerbee
I'm tempted to go for a blend of the two tbh.. the 172 just asks if you were the driver at the time of the alleged offence, not where !! so I have to send the 172 back stating that i was the driver at the time and see what happens from there, i think ?? So it should follow that the BIB request a "chat" after they receive it, then i get my chance to say what happened, however i don't need to give specifics like road names/numbers so that if it does proceed to a prosecution then i've got the locus up my sleeve..
Muggerbee
Any other comments chaps ?? also, what is the minimum amount of info I have to give on the S172 ?? from my reading, it's just, yes it was me, here is my name ??? no need for the dl number or phone number or email ???
jobo
im not convinced your doing the right thing, as above

i believe that you are iding your self at the stated location, but i havent seen your form,

you need to give reasonable infomation requested re the legal standard of the request, so no, no emails, though id put the dl number on myself
Muggerbee
obviously the 172 will be returned at day 28 by SD, any merits to returning it unsigned ??
Pancras
QUOTE (Muggerbee @ Wed, 30 Mar 2011 - 11:06) *
obviously the 172 will be returned at day 28 by SD, any merits to returning it unsigned ??

Was the offence in Scotland? If not the 'merits' of returning it unsigned mean they get a fine and 6 points for Failing to Furnish. If in Scotland, they will have the police turning up to visit them.
Muggerbee
just flying a kite.
rpmmatt
Hi, I know I am a new poster, but I am a long term lurker and felt I might have something useful for this thread. Regular guys please tell me to get stuffed if you think I am being more hinderence than help tongue.gif

A fews years ago I managed to defend a failing to stop charge having the case against me dismissed. In my case it was street furniture I was alleged to have hit, with witness claiming I had deliberately not stopped. I was stopped about 1 mile away from the scene by a police car and told to expect a summons.

In court I was able to argue that I was unaware of the accident due to the following points. The nature of the vehicle, a 44-ton artic with 13m trailer. At the time I was making a 90 degree right turn, so was unable to see directly behind me due to blind spots, the length of the vehicle meant I was 50 feet from the collision at the time, the engine noise of a 12 litre diesel masked the impact noise. The weight of the vehicle disguised any "feel" of impact. The minimal damage to my vehicle( 1 cracked lens) showed from my point of view any accident would be hard to detect.
The witness was called to court as well, and I was able to question him on his knowledge of HGV's and their blind spots, of which he actually knew nothing, so how he could he claim to know what I could and could not see. Also he claimed a cyclist tried to flag me down, however, I argued that a road user gesticulating angrily at a truck driver is not unusual since truckers are held in contempt just because people don't understand how you have to manouver sometimes.
Lastly, I made the point that my company was insured heavily, and that small incidents are common place and I would have had no reason not to stop and simply let the insurance deal with it.
I defended myself and in my case at least, the court were very helpful in helping in explaining procedure regarding questioning the witness etc.
Muggerbee
Thanks Matt

my thoughts exactly
Durzel
Presumably in that case the piece of street furniture didn't proceed to chase you up the street gesticulating for you to pull over though. Claiming to be completely unaware of a physical impact is one thing, claiming to be completely unaware of an impact when you have a guy weaving around in front of you in a damaged vehicle trying to get you to pull over is imo something else.

Without making any kind of character judgement the OP reads like a story where an already damaged car is trying on some kind of scam on an innocent lorry driver, yet the OP seems determined to try and beat the case on a technicality (unsigned, vague locus, NIP delay, etc) rather than an honest account of the incident which makes me somewhat wary of how sugar-coated the account is. The OP doesn't even mention specifically that physical contact occured though it seems obvious from the attitude of the other driver that it did, furthermore such a stark incident would surely have made the driver aware of both the condition of the car pre and post-overtake... I mean it's not like he ran over a cone whiilst fiddling with the radio.
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