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xenton
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - August 2010
Date of the NIP: - 3 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 5 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A180, GREAT COATES
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - Away from home on a short break staying in Crowle and travelling the the coast daily. Partner also insured on vehicle, driving was split 50/50, drove down the A180 everyday, unable to recall which one of us was driving on the day in question. I initially though it must be me, as my partner tends to sit behind lorrys doing 55-60 so it was much more likely to have been myself driving if an offence of speeding had been committed. However, partner stated she distinctly remembered the sat nav beeping to tell her she had exceeded the speed limit, but the sat nav would do this at 71mph and she could not recall what day it was on. Examined mobile phone records neither of us on phone at time of alleged offence, bank records showed I payed for some fuel in Cromer, but this could of been on the way back, or i may have been the passenger, as I always tend to pay for the fuel for my car whether driving or not.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 20:58:39 +0000
jobo
you have at least the basis of a defence, but be warned, if you write back with a cant remmember and cant find out who the driver was, youl end up trying to justify it to the court, who are not fond of this defence, with if you loose six points for you rather than the 3 your likely to get ?

nb what speed is alledged in what limit
peterguk
What was date of offence, and date information laid on summons?
Pancras
Crowle to Grimsby is about 30 miles down one of the least crowded motorways in the country so it is unlikely that you stopped off to change drivers en-route. A court might take the view that two adults should remember or aught to with some reasonable diligence remember who was driving only 5 days before.

The NIP wizard says the offence was August 2010, but you are just posting it now? Have you actually received a summons for s.172, and you have to attend court?
jobo
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:15) *
What was date of offence, and date information laid on summons?


opps didnt notice that

OP, whay EXACTLY did you write on the form you sent back
xenton
Hi guys,

Only just stumbled across the forums here and am now at the stage where I have pleaded not guilty and now have a date for a pre-trial review, here's the history:

Received the NIP and S172 as above.

Sent a letter to Humberside police CTO stating myself and partner were enjoying a short break, using the road in question numerous times to commute to the coast and back, and neither of us could recall who was driving. Sent recorded post 10/08/10.

Received a response on the 13th saying 'I note that you have requested photographic evidence' and included an A4 printout of two still from what I now know to be a handheld laser device from the back of the vehicle as it travelled away from the camera. The central reservation is visible so the camera must of been on the opposite side of the road to that on which I was travelling.

Received another letter from Humberside CTO dated 31/08/10 saying following my request photographic evidence had been sent to me and to date, the required driver details had not been received and summary proceedings will commence against me if I again fail to comply within 7 days, along with a warning about the penalty for failing to provide them. It also stated that any other evidence I may wish to request will not be provided by the CTO and there is no advance entitlement, but if the matter results in court proceedings the defendant may make representations to the CPS for any relevant items once a summons has been issued.

I sent a reply dated 02/09/10 stating I complied with the notice immediately upon receiving it to the best of my ability and enclosed a copy of the letter I originally sent. I stated I was no more able to identify the driver after reviewing the photos they had sent me. I also stated that I had gone to every length possible to identify the driver reviewing mobile phone records, bank statements. I also stated that I was not refusing to provide the information, but I simply did not have the information to supply.

I then received a letter from Humberside CTO saying in the circumstances enforcement action will continue, the matter has been referred to the magistrates court and expect to receive a summons in due course.

On the 20/01/11 the summons landed on my doormat. I responded to plead not guilty to both charges.

I am now in receipt of a Notice of new date of hearing and my pre-trial review is set for 31 March.

In hindsight I should of just put my name on the 172 and defended the speeding charge as it was based on a handheld laser being used from the wrong side of a busy dual carriageway.

I am now trying to prepare a due diligence defence. I could not be certain who was driving for the reasons listed in the NIP wizard but was more likely me so was going to name myself, but partner cast doubt on this as I put in the NIP wizard. then set about checking mobile phone records and bank statements but proved inconclusive.

As for the speeding I am going to request all training and procedure certificates for the officer. All maintenance and calibration records for the LTI 20.20. Documentation stating all calibration procedures for the actual site. The exact location of the equipment used and that it was totally suitable and free from any type of contamination and that it fulfils any guidelines set down in legislation i.e, lenght of site, eight or more injuried in the preceding three years, etc. Copies of the actual video and to show that the vehicle was in clear field of view, and not shadowed by any other vehicles. That the 85th percentile speed was greater than the ACPO guidelines. A copy of the force's procedures for the use of handheld laser devices.

Am I correct in thinking I need to direct my request for this information to the CPS, is there a main address I need to be sending my letter to or one local to Humberside?

What if the video makes possible the identification of the driver, where the photos did not?

Any other advice gratefully received.

Thanks for your time.
jobo
youve still not told me exactly what you put in the letter, did you name both drivers or just say it was me or the wife

what charges are on the summons, just the 172 or the speeding as well ?
xenton
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:10) *
you have at least the basis of a defence, but be warned, if you write back with a cant remmember and cant find out who the driver was, youl end up trying to justify it to the court, who are not fond of this defence, with if you loose six points for you rather than the 3 your likely to get ?

nb what speed is alledged in what limit


Alleged 90 in a 70

QUOTE (Pancras @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:17) *
Crowle to Grimsby is about 30 miles down one of the least crowded motorways in the country so it is unlikely that you stopped off to change drivers en-route. A court might take the view that two adults should remember or aught to with some reasonable diligence remember who was driving only 5 days before.

The NIP wizard says the offence was August 2010, but you are just posting it now? Have you actually received a summons for s.172, and you have to attend court?

This same trip was made on several days in succession and we could not remember who was driving on the particular day in question. As in the OP I thought it was me, as my partner is generally a much slower driver not fond of overtaking, but then she thought it could of been her. Also neither of us remembers seeing a camera, speed trap police car or van, or anything to make the day of the alleged offence stand out from any of the other days when exactly the same journey was made down the same stretch of road.

I am just posting now as I only came across this site upon preparing my defence, summons issued as per my previous post.

QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:18) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:15) *
What was date of offence, and date information laid on summons?


opps didnt notice that

OP, whay EXACTLY did you write on the form you sent back


I sent a separate letter, did not enclose the form and I wrote:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to you regarding the notice of intended prosecution and your request for information under Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988.

At the time of the alleged offence, my partner and myself were enjoying a short break staying in Crowle and used the road, on which the alleged offence occurred, numerous times to commute to the coast and back. The driving was shared, and unfortunately, neither of us is able to recall who was driving the car at the time of the alleged offence.

Thank you all for you help/replies and sorry for the delay between my NIP wizard OP and my next post and any confusion this caused.
Pancras
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:44) *
As for the speeding I am going to request all training and procedure certificates for the officer. All maintenance and calibration records for the LTI 20.20. Documentation stating all calibration procedures for the actual site. The exact location of the equipment used and that it was totally suitable and free from any type of contamination and that it fulfils any guidelines set down in legislation i.e, lenght of site, eight or more injuried in the preceding three years, etc. Copies of the actual video and to show that the vehicle was in clear field of view, and not shadowed by any other vehicles. That the 85th percentile speed was greater than the ACPO guidelines. A copy of the force's procedures for the use of handheld laser devices.

Any other advice gratefully received.

You don't have to defend both matters. If you can't or won't name the driver, the speeding matter will be discontinued due to insufficient evidence. They send you a summons for both matters in the event that you will agree to plead guilty to the lesser charge of speeding on the day of the trial in return for the more serious failing to furnish charge to be dropped.

Bear in mind also that many of the above criteria which you mention (85th percentile, ACPO guidelines, 8 or more KSI in 3 years) are now defunct and of no relevence to a defence of speeding - the police now can enforce speed limits on any road at any time of day and need to pay no attention to factors such as the ones you mention. These were in play to enable the police (or SCP) to recover fines - but this has long since been scrapped.
xenton
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:56) *
youve still not told me exactly what you put in the letter, did you name both drivers or just say it was me or the wife

what charges are on the summons, just the 172 or the speeding as well ?


See my last post and both charges are listed on the summons.

Thanks

QUOTE (Pancras @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:00) *
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 21:44) *
As for the speeding I am going to request all training and procedure certificates for the officer. All maintenance and calibration records for the LTI 20.20. Documentation stating all calibration procedures for the actual site. The exact location of the equipment used and that it was totally suitable and free from any type of contamination and that it fulfils any guidelines set down in legislation i.e, lenght of site, eight or more injuried in the preceding three years, etc. Copies of the actual video and to show that the vehicle was in clear field of view, and not shadowed by any other vehicles. That the 85th percentile speed was greater than the ACPO guidelines. A copy of the force's procedures for the use of handheld laser devices.

Any other advice gratefully received.

You don't have to defend both matters. If you can't or won't name the driver, the speeding matter will be discontinued due to insufficient evidence. They send you a summons for both matters in the event that you will agree to plead guilty to the lesser charge of speeding on the day of the trial in return for the more serious failing to furnish charge to be dropped.

Bear in mind also that many of the above criteria which you mention (85th percentile, ACPO guidelines, 8 or more KSI in 3 years) are now defunct and of no relevence to a defence of speeding - the police now can enforce speed limits on any road at any time of day and need to pay no attention to factors such as the ones you mention. These were in play to enable the police (or SCP) to recover fines - but this has long since been scrapped.


Thanks I hadn't realised that, will remove those from the letter I'm drafting. After I pleaded not guilty to both charges and received the notice of new date and hearing it still lists both charges.
jobo
so you didnt give her name and address then ?
xenton
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:09) *
so you didnt give her name and address then ?


No.
jobo
well you stuffed then ?

the very least you need to do is name all the possible drivers
Pancras
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:05) *
Thanks I hadn't realised that, will remove those from the letter I'm drafting. After I pleaded not guilty to both charges and received the notice of new date and hearing it still lists both charges.

What letter are you drafting? I would advise against writing any letters at this stage as it will not change the course of things.

All you have to do is plead NG by post and attend court on the day. Be wary of supplying letters or documents to Police or CPS which discloses your defence at this stage.

If you are intent on defending the s.172 matter, then do so. But be aware it is a gamble which might land you with a fine of upto £1000 (£500 - £700 is typical) and 6 points if you are convicted, and as I have said (playing Devil's Advocate) that the court might not believe that two people could not between themselves work out who was driving given that the NIP was received within 5 days of the offence. Successfully defending this sort of charge can be very difficult.

If you plead guilty to the speeding matter then you are almost certain to have a fine probably in the £100 - £300 mark and 3 points.
jobo
he seems to have no defence to the 172, but they have no proof for the speeding
xenton
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:14) *
well you stuffed then ?

the very least you need to do is name all the possible drivers


Well that is most unfortunate, if only I'd come across this site earlier.

I suppose my only option is to ask the prosecution to drop the s172 in exchange for a guilty plea on the speeding now I have no chance of defending the 172?

Thanks for your help
Pancras
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:11) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:09) *
so you didnt give her name and address then ?


No.

Aaargh! I didn't read this before I posted. If you haven't at least named the possible drivers at the time, and given the police nothing at all, then I doubt that you will be able to defend this successfully. I would advise that you speak to the prosecutor on the day and hope that they will accept a plea to speeding in return for dropping the s.172 charge.
xenton
QUOTE (Pancras @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:21) *
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:11) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:09) *
so you didnt give her name and address then ?


No.

Aaargh! I didn't read this before I posted. If you haven't at least named the possible drivers at the time, and given the police nothing at all, then I doubt that you will be able to defend this successfully. I would advise that you speak to the prosecutor on the day and hope that they will accept a plea to speeding in return for dropping the s.172 charge.


Is there any point on writing to the CPS before the pre-trial hearing?

Thanks to everyone for help and advice, just wish I'd come across this site when I got the NIP.

Cheers all.
Gan
No, because all you're doing is admitting to the speeding offence as well as the S172 and setting yourself up for 9 points.

What you have to realise is that anything you write to the police or CPS will only ever be used against you, not for you.

The best that you can hope for is to speak to the CPS on the morning of the pre-trial hearing and offer to change your plea for speeding to Guilty on condition that they drop the S172 charge. If they won't, you will continue with Not Guilty to both.
Pancras
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:30) *
Is there any point on writing to the CPS before the pre-trial hearing?

Do not under any circumstances enter into any correspondence with either the CPS or Police at this stage. Nothing can be gained by it from your point of view, other than to give them more rope from which they can hang you.

Go to the court, and ask the prosecutor if they will accept a guilty plea to speeding in return for dropping the s.172. If they do then you are winning. 90 in a 70 would in the circumstances qualify for a fixed penalty of £60 and 3 points. If they accept your plea, put forward a mitigation statement to the magistrates, and ask for them to deal with you leniently and request that the fine is set at or near the fixed penalty amount (that's your starting point).

If the prosecutor will not accept a plea to speeding, and intends to pursue the s.172 offence, as this is the more serious of the two, they will have no option but to drop the speeding at that stage as they have no evidence as to who was the driver. You then attempt as best you can to defend the s.172 matter.

The worst possible outcome for you now would be for something you say in correspondence to be entered into evidence that you was both the driver, and that you failed to furnish details. That could see you stuck on for both offences, which means 9 points and a maximum fine of £1000 for each offence, which would prove to be the most costly ice-cream you have ever had at the seaside.

Say nothing in writing now, and hope that things go well for you on the day.
Durzel
I don't know about you but I would regard it pretty memorable if my significant other was doing circa 90mph when she "tends to sit behind lorrys doing 55-60". I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps on the balance of probabilities its likely your initial assumption that you were driving was correct?

Incidentally going on a fishing expedition with the speeding offence isn't likely to enamour you to the courts. If you don't know the significance or relevance of the information you are requesting then you should avoid doing so completely, lest your defence appear to be vexatious. All that guff about 85th percentile, 8 KSI in the last 3 years, etc has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of the offence you are being charged with.
xenton
A big thank you to everyone for all the help and advice

QUOTE (Pancras @ Sun, 6 Mar 2011 - 15:32) *
QUOTE (xenton @ Sat, 5 Mar 2011 - 22:30) *
Is there any point on writing to the CPS before the pre-trial hearing?

Do not under any circumstances enter into any correspondence with either the CPS or Police at this stage. Nothing can be gained by it from your point of view, other than to give them more rope from which they can hang you.

Go to the court, and ask the prosecutor if they will accept a guilty plea to speeding in return for dropping the s.172. If they do then you are winning. 90 in a 70 would in the circumstances qualify for a fixed penalty of £60 and 3 points. If they accept your plea, put forward a mitigation statement to the magistrates, and ask for them to deal with you leniently and request that the fine is set at or near the fixed penalty amount (that's your starting point).

If the prosecutor will not accept a plea to speeding, and intends to pursue the s.172 offence, as this is the more serious of the two, they will have no option but to drop the speeding at that stage as they have no evidence as to who was the driver. You then attempt as best you can to defend the s.172 matter.

The worst possible outcome for you now would be for something you say in correspondence to be entered into evidence that you was both the driver, and that you failed to furnish details. That could see you stuck on for both offences, which means 9 points and a maximum fine of £1000 for each offence, which would prove to be the most costly ice-cream you have ever had at the seaside.

Say nothing in writing now, and hope that things go well for you on the day.


Thanks got it, no correspondence, see prosecutor at court. Incidentally we didn't have ice cream, I never mentioned ice cream, but the whole ice cream thing really helps to hammer home your point?!?


QUOTE (Durzel @ Sun, 6 Mar 2011 - 19:37) *
I don't know about you but I would regard it pretty memorable if my significant other was doing circa 90mph when she "tends to sit behind lorrys doing 55-60". I guess what I'm saying is that perhaps on the balance of probabilities its likely your initial assumption that you were driving was correct?

Incidentally going on a fishing expedition with the speeding offence isn't likely to enamour you to the courts. If you don't know the significance or relevance of the information you are requesting then you should avoid doing so completely, lest your defence appear to be vexatious. All that guff about 85th percentile, 8 KSI in the last 3 years, etc has no bearing whatsoever on the validity of the offence you are being charged with.


Right first of all it's an alleged 90, could of actually been substantially less, and no not really had it been an extremely excess speed I would of noticed and probably commented. If your helpfully suggesting I omit that from any part of a defence I may be preparing why not just say that, if your trying to say you think I'm lying why not just come out and say that. There was a reason I doubted my initial assumption, as I have previously posted, which you chose to omit from your post.

As for the 'all that guff' I've obviously come across some bad and outdated information and thank you for correcting me there. I know on hindsight I've not taken the best course of action and I wish I had just named one of the two possible drivers even though I honestly didn't, and still don't know which one it was. I know I'm just doing damage limitation now, but if I could get some help with that maybe some positive assistance that would be amazing. If not, that's fine I have no right to demand anyone's help, I'll continue posting updates so you can find more clever ways to poke fun at my demise and amuse yourselves.

southpaw82
QUOTE (xenton @ Mon, 7 Mar 2011 - 00:22) *
I'll continue posting updates so you can find more clever ways to poke fun at my demise and amuse yourselves.


No need for the chip on your shoulder. Don't forget, you'll get the poster's honest opinion and you have no right to dictate their response. Getting arsey will simply result in less help for you and create more work for me.
xenton
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 7 Mar 2011 - 00:26) *
QUOTE (xenton @ Mon, 7 Mar 2011 - 00:22) *
I'll continue posting updates so you can find more clever ways to poke fun at my demise and amuse yourselves.


No need for the chip on your shoulder. Don't forget, you'll get the poster's honest opinion and you have no right to dictate their response. Getting arsey will simply result in less help for you and create more work for me.


My apologies to you and the others, just got a bit stressed at my own stupidity in the way I've dealt with it thus far, sorry and again thank you to everyone for all the help.
Pancras
QUOTE (xenton @ Mon, 7 Mar 2011 - 00:22) *
Thanks got it, no correspondence, see prosecutor at court. Incidentally we didn't have ice cream, I never mentioned ice cream, but the whole ice cream thing really helps to hammer home your point?!?

What else is there to do at Cleethorpes, besides Fish and Chips at "Steels Corner Cafe" (I wonder if it is still there)?

Don't get stressed about what people are saying. I would say that everyone who has posted just wants to help you. You probably did a Google search on Speed cameras and found an outdated link to old ACPO guidelines. The stuff about KSI, 85th Percentile etc was never about the legality of prosecuting people for speeding, it was to comply with the long since withdrawn government criteria for keeping the money which they raised in fines. No it's more like the wild west with speeding - there doesn't need to be signs, and the van doesn't need to be marked, they can pick the road, and they can hide if they like. The fact that most police forces still operate within the old rules is a courtesy (can't think of a better word) rather than a requirement. The court won't be interested in any of it - all they are bothered about is that the equipment used was done so properly and you was speeding.
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