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E46M3
Hi, I was pulled the other night by the police doing 130 (so they say) on a motorway.

It was about midnight, the roads were empty and tbh I was only doing said speed of a few seconds (not that it matters).

The 2 police officers were in an unmarked car; I stopped straight away and was interviewed in the back of the car.
They said they had me doing up to that speed for 3/4 of a mile, however; there didn't appear to be a camera in the car or screen to view it on. (From past experience there is normally a screen in the centre of the dash) he never showed me my speed on any of the equipment, but as I was a bit shocked I can't remember if there was any of the equipment in the car.

The copper said that my speed was close to being dangerous driving (that said he gave the distinct impression that it was not being looked at like that because of the time and lack of other road users) He also told me that I would hear from him in due course and most likely have to go to the local magistrates court.(“Prepare for a period of disqualification” were the exact words)

He checked my details and they were all fine and seemed to changed his mood when he saw that I had a clean license. After which my license was given back to me and I was free to drive home.

I've not signed any paperwork at all and nothing has turned up in the post yet.

I fully expect something to turn up but the way everything happened was odd as the car was full of cases and bags so I had to squeeze into the back seat. I was not shown any of the proof of speed at the time and they let me go with my license in hand. (All of which has never happened before, but perhaps that is because I've been dealt with by fixed penalty notice)


I know I've not had the NIP in the post yet but I'm trying to prep for this before it turns into a bigger problem.


Thanks in advance.

BaggieBoy
You are unlikely to get a NIP in the post, the next thing you will get will be a summons in the next few months but could be up to 6 or so. There isn't much you can do until the summons arrives and you know what you have to defend.
The Rookie
The officer will say he formed an opinion you were speeding (not hard) and corroboprtaed it by some means (speedo, in car time distance or laser?) and that is all he needs to convict, no video, no signed confession by you etc.

As it stands you are into damage limitation, really you can't do much until the smmons arrives with the officer statement(s) and we can then give meaningful advice on how to keep the sentance to a minimum, however I'm sure you realise a ban of reasonable length is pretty much a certainly.

Simon
jobo
its difficult to hold out a lot of hope, if they were usuing only the car speedo, it might be possible to argue the speed down a bit, but only a bit,,

after that a summons will arive some time in the next 7 months, but prob within 3,,


anything over a ton will get you bannned, id hate to guess at how long for 130, but at the very least two months, maybe 2 or three times that

you might be able to reduce the lenth by grovelliung and provieding a hardship argument on the consequences of a long ban on you and particularly others, wife, children, employer, grannies
E46M3
yeah I thought I might have to wait for the paperwork to turn up.

TBH I'm going to have to find a sympathetic judge who thinks I need my license for my job etc.

More fool me for my moment of madness though.

jobo
you mat have to try a bit harder than that if you want to limit the durration of the ban

who else depends on you DL and or your job
picko
Mitigation really needs to be about others who will suffer from you losing your license not you in particular i.e. a poorly relative for whom you are the only means of transport and mobility. Having a clean license will help but it is all about damage limitation really.
E46M3
Well this is the truthful reasons I need my license:

I'm in the HM Forces and am due to deploy to Afghan soon. Whilst there I will need to be able to drive as part of my duties. A ban would effect the operational effectiveness of the tour and in turn would have an adverse effect on my career which could put my lively hood at risk. ( a ban of any sort will result in disciplinary action in the forces)

I am the only driver in my family and we live in the sticks with a minimum of 10 minutes drive to the medical centre or shops. I need to commute to work on a daily basis to support them and when I am on duty I can be called out to an emergency at any time of day or night. (there is a bus but it only runs once every 2 hours through the day)

My children now live in Halifax and in order to see them I need to do a 600 mile round trip to see them for 4 hours. (I could not do this on a train as the timings would throw everything out and the ex would stop them from having any contact with me)

My brother lives 3 hours drive away and has a poorly paid job, his daughter lives 10 miles from me so I regularly drive his daughter to see him. If i did not do this he wouldn't have half as much contact with her.

Clearly I'll need to tart it up but do you think any of these would be worth mentioning?


Funny how one stupid moment of madness can change so much eh? clearly it's my own fault but bloody hell!
captain swoop
I don't think you need a UK License in Afghanstan.

10 minute drive to the shops I don't think will be much help.

What nature of emergency could you be called out to?
E46M3
I can't drive a Mil Vehicle in any country without a UK Driving license mate, so I really wouldn't be able to drive out there.

Yeah the drive to the shops is just an inconvenience I guess.

The emergencies can vary from general enquires to casualty reporting for injured and dead service personnel and their families. (these days it happens more often than we like it to.)
Logician
The forces are normally very good about providing character references etc. A note from your CO stating that you need to be able to drive for operational reasons will go down well. If you are deploying soon, you may be over there when your case comes up anyway, and need an adjournment until your return. I am not sure some of the hardship is very convincing, as obviously life goes on for these others when you are on active service, but the children angle is something.
E46M3
Yeah, I'm clutching at straws tbh but needs must. lol

E46M3
On a side not, if / when I get a ban do i have to re sit all my license catagories?

I have A,B,C and some others. I'm hoping I'd resit the B license depending on the length of the ban and then the others become valid again?
Logician
No, you are OK with speeding. A ban of under 56 days they will send your licence back to you, for 56 or more you have to apply for a new licence but no test is required. Just check that all your categories are on it, as they should be.
E46M3
well there's some good news for a change.

Thanks mate.
On the square...
With careful (a) grovelling (b) perhaps throwing doubt, via a well executed solicitor defence, on their speedo reading if it was indeed just a speedo (check evidence/statements when the arrive) on the basis that they may have been doing 130mph to catch you while you were considerably less than that and © character testimony in the form of letter from your CO, you may well see a more lenient approach, and a shorter ban.
You wont be able to do anything till paperwork arrives, if indeed it does......I once got pulled for 101mph on an A road and seen and heard no more of it.
sh*t myself for 6 months mind
Good luck to you, and to the regiment
OTS
Pancras
It's a difficult one to know which way to play to be honest. For 130 mph, a ban is inevitable. I am not trying to knock you, but more play devil's advocate that there is a school of thought that as a member of HM forces, you should be aware of discipline and rules. I am not sure that your CO would be too keen on writing a reference because it could be misconstrued that the Army is asking the magistrates not to disqualify you, which they wouldn't do.

E46M3
QUOTE (Pancras @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 17:36) *
It's a difficult one to know which way to play to be honest. For 130 mph, a ban is inevitable. I am not trying to knock you, but more play devil's advocate that there is a school of thought that as a member of HM forces, you should be aware of discipline and rules. I am not sure that your CO would be too keen on writing a reference because it could be misconstrued that the Army is asking the magistrates not to disqualify you, which they wouldn't do.



Nope that's fair enough mate, I'm a numpty for doing the deed and I guess there is an expectation in the public forum for me to know better but lets be honest, I'm the same as anyone else and I'm not infallable.

TBH I've seen many a young lad sent to court for a driving conviction with a letter stating how they require their license for their job and it's been the deciding factor that stopped the ban. The fine was huge though! lol
I suspect I will not be so lucky though as my job isn't driving as a primary role so it's hard to justify a military requirement for me to drive on a regular basis other than on tour every now and again.
Durzel
Realistically you're not going to avoid a ban if they convict you at that speed, that's the reality of it. I would personally focus on making a general statement about how you're "disappointed to have found yourself before the Magistrates today", "an isolated moment of madness on a clear motorway where no other road users were perceived to be in danger", "have spent the last X months reflecting over the incident and have taken steps to improve my driving" (e.g. might be an idea to proactively take an advanced driving course?).

Statement from CO could help but of course asking for one for 130 in a 70 is somewhat of a pisstake (unless your driving is absolutely vital to the armed forces) imo. Depends how confident you are about asking I guess and whether its worth the aggro.
Ocelot
Sounds painful. I was once at court and observed another case, which was for a member of the armed forces accused of breaking his passenger's back due to dangerous driving. After a character reference from his commanding officer, he got off with a minimal penalty.

Whereas the mags might take a dim view of someone in a responsible position breaking the Law, they equally might go easy as they wouldn't want to be seen jeopardising the, for want of a better phrase, 'war effort'.
Mayhem007
QUOTE (E46M3 @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 16:17) *
I'm in the HM Forces and am due to deploy to Afghan soon. Whilst there I will need to be able to drive as part of my duties. A ban would effect the operational effectiveness of the tour and in turn would have an adverse effect on my career which could put my lively hood at risk. ( a ban of any sort will result in disciplinary action in the forces)


Also excellent mitigation

QUOTE
I am the only driver in my family and we live in the sticks with a minimum of 10 minutes drive to the medical centre or shops. I need to commute to work on a daily basis to support them and when I am on duty I can be called out to an emergency at any time of day or night. (there is a bus but it only runs once every 2 hours through the day)


One could argue from the magistrates, how would the family manage while you are away for 4-6 months in Afghanistan. However, neing called at any time WEEKEND OR NIGHT TIME is good mitigation.

QUOTE
My children now live in Halifax and in order to see them I need to do a 600 mile round trip to see them for 4 hours. (I could not do this on a train as the timings would throw everything out and the ex would stop them from having any contact with me)


This is it what banning people is all about, showing them the reality of losing one's license, how it affects you and your family. Banning person's is to enable them to experience regret, remorse and hardship and therefore is not very good for mitigating circumstances. Also, I don't think its a good idea to mention ex wives, whilst it is bugger all to do with the magistrates they might take inference that you are going through some sort of crisis.

QUOTE
My brother lives 3 hours drive away and has a poorly paid job, his daughter lives 10 miles from me so I regularly drive his daughter to see him. If i did not do this he wouldn't have half as much contact with her.


Once again we are not taking about a lif time of being off the road and a ban is more likely to make you think of how it affects others and therefore this is not a good reason for mitigation.

You need to focus on the affect it will have on your operational requirements and the safety of your colleagues. Under normal circumstances I daresay you would be serving your ban whilst in Afghan and would not be of any particular hardship. However, these are not normal circumstances and a ban would have an extreme impact on military operations and safety to your unit. You may wish to expand upon this by explaining your experience and why it would be difficult for your commanders to appoint someone else for those duties.

I would also explain that you would be punished by your superiors for not being able to fulfil your duties and possibly for bringing the armed forces into disrepute. I hope you have advised your CO for this minor criminal act. Best to be upfront and honest. Then ask if he would be willing to write a character reference and mitigation for points rather than a ban.

After you have pleaded and apologised to the courts, you might wish to invite them, given the mitigation and circumstances, to consider 9 points and a fine. 9 points would ensure that you drive like an angel as any other points will land you in far deeper trouble resulting in a 6 month ban.

One other thing your mitigation will be presented from the witness box under oath. There is no other way of it being presented differently, so it is something that the magistrates consider seriously.

Being ex forces I am behind all our lads and lasses operating abroad and at home, my rubber wrist band is in support of the Vikings in Afghanistan.
picko
I would reiterate that you have a currently clean license and the incident was an out of character moment of stupidity
E46M3


QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 23 Feb 2011 - 10:16) *



I didn't want to copy the whole thing again as it was rather large but Yes, the very first thing I did was go and talk to the boss on Monday Morning. I've always found that if you're upfront with things like this then the Unit will always try to help you out as best as they can.

One thing this shows is how differently people look at your mitigating circumstances, what you and I think are fairly key points from a Forces point of view aren't reflected in the civilian view of some on this forum, so it seems to be a balancing act to get this right on the day.

I'm told that in this area i should hear within 3 - 4 weeks if there is going to be a summons, I hope this is the case as it's a proper ball ache waiting to find out if I'm in the poo or not. lol

Logician
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Wed, 23 Feb 2011 - 10:16) *
QUOTE
My children now live in Halifax and in order to see them I need to do a 600 mile round trip to see them for 4 hours. (I could not do this on a train as the timings would throw everything out and the ex would stop them from having any contact with me)


This is it what banning people is all about, showing them the reality of losing one's license, how it affects you and your family. Banning person's is to enable them to experience regret, remorse and hardship and therefore is not very good for mitigating circumstances. Also, I don't think its a good idea to mention ex wives, whilst it is bugger all to do with the magistrates they might take inference that you are going through some sort of crisis.



I do not agree with that at all, needing to use a car to see children who now live a distance away is a good hardship argument, why should the children suffer being deprived of contact with their father? Particularly strong in this case where they cannot see him anyway while he is overseas.

The magistrates will be perfectly well aware of how many marriages end in divorce, so will not be shocked at the mention of an ex or assume an emotional crisis, not that an emotional crisis is an aggravating feature anyway!
garry
When telling work remember you are required to inform your MTTT&L/MTO as with this conviction you will not be entitled to hold a F/MT 600 (military driving permit) you will have signed F/MT 103 (signing as having read and understood Drivers Standing Orders) which tells you that you must inform them. Unless he/she decides so and carries out a risk assessment and probably some remedial driver training. They will also require a fresh copy of both parts of your licence to hold on your "P" file once you get it back. If you were to have a "driver at fault" accident in a service vehicle with speed being a factor this would be investigated and why a person with a serious speed related driving conviction was simply let carry on with no remedial action taken would get them into a world of trouble. For this reason I would doubt a professional MTO would want to have that risk hanging over their pension. Also with such a serious offence an MTO may not even be able to grant it without your command master drivers say so. Also any driving related course expenditure at public expense would be unlikely ever again, but you've got your vocational licences already so bonus on that front. Hopefully the Army Act 1955 (or appropriate service equivalent) doesn't poke its nose in for bringing the Army into disrepute, whatever you get from civilian court im sure will be injury enough to you.

Good Luck and fingers crossed as mentioned you serve out a ban while away

ps. I don't know if it would be of any use but if your living out no transport to enable you to report for duty would result in you permission to live out being taken away especially if your expected to be on call out of hours even if someone can give you a lift on week days. I assume therefore that as a result of a driving ban you could suggest that you and more importantly the people living with you would be forced to move house to married quarters which is subsidised at public expense and that to me would seem a very real and extreme result work should be able to back this up if you are intending to get someone to speak for you. If you have a mortgage you could say you risk loosing the family home as not being able to rent a quarter and pay mortgage and the effect that would be as a result to others!
Nice enough
The army card is indeed a good one to play.

While driving may not be essential, the bench, rightly in my view, will have a great deal of time for a defendant who is prepared to risk his life in the service of his country.

Should at least get the ban down by a few months.

If the OP is lucky, he may be able to serve most of it while he's away.
The Rookie
If you read the thread he is required (by army rules and nothing more admittedly) to hold a UK licence so he can do the driving required whilst he's away.

I would add that as a Magistrate I may take the opinion that if the army wants to have a rule that he needs his UK licence to drive, that is upto them, he doesn't need it to legally drive in Afghanistan and so if the Army decide that he can't drive that is their look out and they just have to 'sort it'. Just to forewarn the OP so he can have some argument ready to head that off.

Simon

P.S. Title makes me smile, getting pulled by the fuzz at that speed could be really dangerous, could put you right off your driving.
LaverdaJota
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 11:28) *
Title makes me smile, getting pulled by the fuzz at that speed could be really dangerous, could put you right off your driving.


Not wishing to take away the seriousness of this post but the title also made me chuckle and reminded me of...

....Ever been picked up by the fuzz? No but I have often been swung round by the t*its

I wish you well with this one.

Best regards,

David (Awaiting a brown envelope from the Met. as we speak)
xreyuk
I am by no means an expert, but have had experience dealing with talking to magistrates etc. From what the guys on here told me, mitigating circumstances work best when they affect other people. As other people have said, I would definitely concentrate on telling the magistrates that not only would be inconvenient, it could put your life, and your colleagues in great danger whilst serving.

I also agree that magistrates will/should take their time to speak someone who's willing to risk their lives for the country. The magistrates I had were completely understanding that I had been through some tough times as a youngster, and all I was going to lose was my job. I was actually surprised at how much like 'normal people' they were.

Good luck.
xone
Calibration certificate of speedo and the recorded daily check the officer must do before using the vehicle for speed detection?? This is normally overlooked. Has anyone thought of that yet??
Pancras
QUOTE (xone @ Sat, 26 Feb 2011 - 00:13) *
Calibration certificate of speedo and the recorded daily check the officer must do before using the vehicle for speed detection?? This is normally overlooked. Has anyone thought of that yet??

If it is an RPU vehicle it will almost certainly have a certified calibrated speedo. The OP will have to wait for the summons and the statements of the officers to arrive before we know whether or not the daily checks were done. As there was two officers in the car, that is the necessary corroboration required. If the checks of the speedo were not done then it will be assumed that the speedo is accurate to 10% which might help the OP argue the speed down a bit from 130. The issue is that 130 is so high (assuming a 70 mph limit, exceeding that by 85%) that no speedometer would be so inaccurate.

The OP will have to wait for statements to see exactly what speed and how obtained was alleged, and it might be worth a guilty plea with a newton hearing. Being able to argue speed down to around the 100 mark would be likely to assist.
roadrunner 163
if this was 10 or 20% over the limit then calibration is an issue but as its closer to 90% over the speed limit then thier opinion is admissable and a few mph misread will have little evidential value for a defence.



E46M3
Ok so the papaerwork came through today and it's basically speeding in a 70.

I have to attend in person but I can plead guilty in advance which i intend on doing.
In a nutshell it's 130 MPH on clear dry roads in the dead of night.

so what should I expect in terms of a ban, points and a fine?
jobo
id say at least two months ban and that with a lot of crawling
E46M3
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 18 May 2011 - 16:58) *
id say at least two months ban and that with a lot of crawling


I thought the maximum for a speeding offence was 56 days and upto 6 points?
Glacier2
It is 6 points or a ban. The ban can be for any length they decide. 56 days is just a guideline. They can go over that.
Hotel Oscar 87
QUOTE (E46M3 @ Wed, 18 May 2011 - 18:09) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Wed, 18 May 2011 - 16:58) *
id say at least two months ban and that with a lot of crawling


I thought the maximum for a speeding offence was 56 days and upto 6 points?

At the speed alleged i.e. 130 in a 70mph you are over the top of the standard sentencing guidelines. From that point of view the suggested sentence is a 7-56 day ban OR 6 points and a Band B fine in the range 75-125% of your relevant weekly income (salary minus tax and NI). This may open up the possibility of your arguing that a ban would a) hobble your unit's effectiveness - with a decent letter from your CO and b) would damage your career with a view to nudging the bench in the direction of the points as opposed to the ban. I'd suggest that a) will win it over b) every time. The fine is likely to be right at the limit I'd suggest.
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