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rich w
Today 17/02/2011 I have received a summons dated 01/02/2011 to appear in court on the 07/03/2011. There are two offences 1. Fail to give information re driver's identity as required. 2. speeding - exceed 30 miles per hour on restricted road - automatic. At the back of the court document is a NIP with notice issue date 04/11/2011 stating that i was doing 36 in a 30 on the 29/10/2010. I was possibly on the road at the time and date so the speed is feasible. The last page is a certificate about the speed camera a GATSOMETER, the place A37 temple cloud, and my details, it is signed and dated 12/01/2011 . The are no obvious errors and the addresses are correct. From what i have read the NIP should have been received within 14 days, I have read about the RAC legal advice but i have not seen any information about summons? I have a clean license for over 20 years. I think and hope that there is an error with the paper work. Confused and concerned.
nemo
Did you receive any correspondence (ie NIP / s.172 request) prior to the summons ?

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.


douglasb
The 14 day rule only applies to the first NIP which is sent to the Registered Keeper. If the vehicle is a company car/van it will probably be owned by a leasing company so your NIP could be the third in the chain (first to lease company and they name your company. second to your company who name you).
jobo
why have you now got a summons ? did you reply to the Nip /172 request , did you get one, what did you say
rich w
QUOTE (douglasb @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:12) *
The 14 day rule only applies to the first NIP which is sent to the Registered Keeper. If the vehicle is a company car/van it will probably be owned by a leasing company so your NIP could be the third in the chain (first to lease company and they name your company. second to your company who name you).


i am the registered keeper and the addresses are correct. This is the only letter/notification I have received.

QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:34) *
why have you now got a summons ? did you reply to the Nip /172 request , did you get one, what did you say



the nip and summons have arrived as one document

QUOTE (nemo @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 15:25) *
Did you receive any correspondence (ie NIP / s.172 request) prior to the summons ?

Please visit the READ ME FIRST section (Click Here), answer all the questions in the NIP Wizard (including the detailed questions reached by clicking on the Additional Questions button on the second page), and the Wizard will then post its output back here to enable us to help you.

the first place i went was the nip wizard i started filling it in but i could square the questions. i'll have another go

jobo
id suggest thats a copy of the one they sent you shortly after the offence, which you didnt reply to,, either that or its not a summons your looking it,, does it say summons at the top,,, do the nip wizard for us or this will get silly
rich w
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:49) *
id suggest thats a copy of the one they sent you shortly after the offence, which you didnt reply to,, either that or its not a summons your looking it,, does it say summons at the top,,, do the nip wizard for us or this will get silly


i have not received any other letters, yes it does say summons and a date for the hearing, 07/03. just tried the nip wizard again and it states 'Because you didn't answer the additional questions needed for a forum post the Wizard wasn't able to construct one for you' but i didn't see any additional questions.
jobo
there is a addition questions button


so,,, they sent a nipo/172 which you didnt recieve ? when was this ? is there any mention of a remminder beeing sent


there is an option of pleading guilty to the speeding / in return for them dropping the more serious and expensive 172
justforthepictures
QUOTE (rich w @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:49) *
id suggest thats a copy of the one they sent you shortly after the offence, which you didnt reply to,, either that or its not a summons your looking it,, does it say summons at the top,,, do the nip wizard for us or this will get silly


i have not received any other letters, yes it does say summons and a date for the hearing, 07/03. just tried the nip wizard again and it states 'Because you didn't answer the additional questions needed for a forum post the Wizard wasn't able to construct one for you' but i didn't see any additional questions.

How long have you had the vehicle?

How long have you lived at the address registered against the vehicle in question?
rich w
QUOTE (justforthepictures @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 17:00) *
QUOTE (rich w @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:53) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:49) *
id suggest thats a copy of the one they sent you shortly after the offence, which you didnt reply to,, either that or its not a summons your looking it,, does it say summons at the top,,, do the nip wizard for us or this will get silly


i have not received any other letters, yes it does say summons and a date for the hearing, 07/03. just tried the nip wizard again and it states 'Because you didn't answer the additional questions needed for a forum post the Wizard wasn't able to construct one for you' but i didn't see any additional questions.

How long have you had the vehicle?

How long have you lived at the address registered against the vehicle in question?

had the vehicle about five years, lived at the address for 3 1/2 years

QUOTE (jobo @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 16:58) *
there is a addition questions button
ok thanks, will try again

so,,, they sent a nipo/172 which you didnt recieve ? when was this ? is there any mention of a remminder beeing sent

i have not received any info before today, there is no mention of reminders, what is a 172


there is an option of pleading guilty to the speeding / in return for them dropping the more serious and expensive 172


assuming that a 172 is failing to give info re identity then yes it is a separate offence on the summons to the speeding. but i can't see any offer dropping the 172, just entering different pleas
rich w
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - October 2010
Date of the NIP: - 6 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 111 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A37 temple cloud, near bristol facing farrington gurney
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Second
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - i have received a summons and a nip (maybe a copy) today 17/02/2011

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:43:23 +0000
jobo
no mate, you need to offer it to the prosicutor at court, they have no obligation to accept, but seem to be aminable to it on most occasions


you would seem to have a defence to both, the speeding coz they cant prove it was you, and the 172 coz you didnt recieve it,,, however if it goes wrong its 6 points and a big fine, against three points( if its a low speed ?) and a far more reasonable fine

so its if you want to be pragmatic or not ?

NB you would need to go NOT^ guilty to both
Pancras
The issue it seems is that you have not replied to the original s.172 request to name the driver. This is because you never received it. While it is accepted that post is lost, the Police generally send a reminder too, and for both to go astray is unlikely to be believed by the court even if it is true.

Had the original been received then you would almost certainly have been offered a SAC but as things stand you are now summonsed.

Your options are:

Plead guilty to the speeding matter (if it was you who was driving), and explain to the court that you would have replied to the s.172 notice had you recieved it, and that you would like a penalty commensurate with the fixed penalty which would have been offered (£60 and 3 points).

Or

If there are other people insured to use your car, and because of the passage of time you now have no recollection of the journey, Plead Not guilty to both. The speeding matter will be dropped due to insufficient evidence as to who the driver was, and you will have to defend the s.172 allegation based on the fact that you have never received the paperwork. The problem which you will face is that the Police will generally have some sort of proof of posting which will in the eyes of the court deem the service of the NIP two working days later unless you can disprove this. This could be because there was a postal strike, other letters have gone missing. You run the risk of a fine in the region of 150% of your net weekly salary and 6 points if convicted of this offence, so it is a big gamble. Unfortunately, that's the situation you are in...
rich w
thank you pancras
rich w
I have spoken to a friend who is a serving officer for Avon & Somerset, he said that he didn't think that they sent reminders to the NIP's, Can anyone confirm this, has anyone else received (or not received a NIP) and then been summonsed? or has anyone received a reminder or copy of the original NIP after the original, preferably from Avon & Somerset as i guess all the forces will differ?

Thank you.
The Rookie
If there is no mention of a reminder in the witless statements or copy of it in the reminders, it's a flying certainty they didn't send one, if they did they would trumpet it from the rooftops!

Simon
rich w
this is really annoying, if i had received a NIP i would have done a SAC and had a £60 fine, not great but not the end of the world. Because, for what ever reason, i didn't receive the NIP, the safecam website states that no reminders will be sent, i have now been summonsed to court, charged with an additional offence (s172). is it worth seeking legal advice? has anyone else had a similar experience?
The Rookie
This is a common scenario, and yes lots of examples on here.

You have a solid defence to both charges aided by the fact its easy to see one piece of post going missing but not two (but A&S are penny pinching and don't send reminders.

However if you want to be pragmatic and plead guilty (after talking to teh CPS on the day) to speeding so they drop the more serious S172, you can, me I'd fight both.

Simon
rich w
Simon,

thanks for that, i'm quite unconfrontational, so could i speak to the CPS to avoid court, and ideally is the SAC still possible, is this a conversation with someone other than the CPS? this is not as important to me as not going to court so i may just take the points?. P.S. I phoned to find out more i was on hold for 20 + minutes before they dropped the call. Royal mail stats show about 17,000,000 pieces of mail go missing each year! i tried to find other cases the same on the forum but was unsuccessful, could you point me to any?

thanks again
jobo
if you plead guilty by post to both youl get nine points, if you plead not guilty to the speeding or the 172, youl have to go, if your going to go, you might as well go with plan a and offer the plea to get the points down to three
BaggieBoy
The SAC has now gone, it cannot be offered by the CPS.
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