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nelly4eva3000
Hello everyone hope you are all well. I was hoping someone might be able to help me with a situation that has recently arisen.

I have just received a letter through the post stating i have to pay a charge of £70.00 as my car was parked illegally in a loading bay. However on the date that the fine was issued I was at work from 10am til 6pm approximately 35 miles away from where the incident occurred.

I always drive to work and my employer has said he will write me a statement to say i was at work on the day and my car was in the work car park. Another 13-14 employees who work with me have also said they are willing to write statements saying the same. Is it likely that i will be able to appeal the pcn with all this evidence i have or should i just pay the fine?

Lastly anybody have any idea how the hell i got this ticket when i have never been to the place where this ticket was issued?

Any help greatly appreciated

P.s thanks for your replies guys i have uploaded the notice to owner please advise thank you.



emanresu
You'll need to write to the council to ask them to prove service. In other words prove they issued the PCN to the car you drive. They should also have pictures of the car to confirm make / colour.

A simple mistake in noting down the VRM can cause you to receive a PCN even though you were miles away. No need for statements yet.

In the unlikely event that the photos of the car show an exact match to the make and colour of the one you own, you may also want to post up the letter you received to see if there are any problems with it. I assume it is a NTO - Notice to Owner.

ALSO NOTE: You are in the council system now with a legal timeline. You need to respond to the letters in the way they ask, within the times they ask. So if you can upload the NTO or at least give us the dates, then we'll keep you straight.
hcandersen
Of course you don't have to pay a penalty charge for which you're not liable. But as per emanresu, this is conditional upon abiding by the rules of the process. March in step and we'll see this through.

Post docs pl.


HCA
bama
err is this a council PCN or a PPC invoice ?
If it is a council PCN then post the docs - scrubbed.
see this
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?autoco...ticle&id=16
for how

If its a PPC invoice then do NOT post the docs.
Scaramouche
Edited cos new brain attached. Which street/road, please?
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 15:10) *
If this is Bradford, I look forward to the PCN being posted! Which street/road, please?



Sorry should i be disclosing that information?
Scaramouche
We also need to see the whole NtO. I have already found two issues with it re "within 28 days" and the threat to send a Charge Certificate which is against the regs.:

(g)that if, after the payment period has expired, no representations have been made under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations and the penalty charge has not been paid, the enforcement authority may increase the penalty charge by the applicable surcharge;


Did you keep the envelope and when was this received? Date of posting must be the same as date of notice and must be sent first class.
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:28) *
We need to see the PCN for flaws.


Sorry im not sure i understand what you mean i never got a pcn as my car was never there in the first place?
Scaramouche
Sorry, now have attached new brain! Just been on too many cases today! So there is no PCN as stated in your original thread. Sounds like possible cloning or they have entered wrong details on a previous PCN. Write the council for their photographic evidence which should knock this on the head.
DancingDad
Scary meant the NTO
And yes we normally will scour all the text for errors but in this case I'm thinking that, now we know it's a council job, the challenge ought to be on contravention did not occur. It wasn't me and I wasn't there.... infact I was here and here's a statement from my boss.
And if Bradford choose to disbelieve this prima facia evidence that it could not have been my car I require full disclosure of all evidence so I may consider further appeals. This includes but is not limited to full CEO notes and Photographs.

Either bradford will check and cancel because of something obvious.
Or they'll ignore and we have paved the way for a full missile including everything we "have been forced" to include against this vexatious charge...and bTW, can we have costs please mr adjudicator.

Keep all the NTO, we may need it in the future.
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:28) *
We need to see the PCN for flaws. We also need to see the whole NtO. I have already found two issues with it re "within 28 days" and the threat to send a Charge Certificate which is against the regs.:

(g)that if, after the payment period has expired, no representations have been made under regulation 4 of the Representations and Appeals Regulations and the penalty charge has not been paid, the enforcement authority may increase the penalty charge by the applicable surcharge;


Did you keep the envelope and when was this received? Date of posting must be the same as dtae of notice and must be sent first class.


Ok still have envelope the date stamp on the envelope shows 15.02.11 and has a postage stamp not sure if its first class and was received on 16.02.11
Scaramouche
Would be handy to have the name of the street please as I have a map and Order handy.
DancingDad
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:28) *
We also need to see the whole NtO. I have already found two issues with it re "within 28 days" ..............



Withins are qualified "begining with..." makes em compliant.

Unless you mean the within 28 days of ?????? in big bold in the opening paragrph laugh.gif
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:51) *
Would be handy to have the name of the street please as I have a map and Order handy.


can i pm you the street? as im already paranoid about this especially since the cloning idea has been mentioned now
Scaramouche
QUOTE (nelly4eva3000 @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:51) *
Would be handy to have the name of the street please as I have a map and Order handy.


can i pm you the street? as im already paranoid about this especially since the cloning idea has been mentioned now


Yes, of course, please do. It's probably not a cloning job. If this were me, I would alert the Police, too. However, the problem at hand is this NtO. Do as Dad suggests and write/e-mail/phone Bradford to get this sorted and send all witness statements.

Dear Sirs, I acknowledge receipt of NtO....................I am the owner of the vehicle. I have incontrovertible evidence that the said vehicle was 35 miles away from the location on the alleged day in question and enclose various witness statements in support. Conversely, I require you to produce all your evidence that my vehicle was in contravention of a Traffic Regulation Order, all detailed notes of the CEO, photographic evidence, a complete schedule of the progress of the case, including when you contacted the DVLA for my details. In view of my evidence, I require you to carry out a full investigation and cancel this NtO forthwith. Yours faithfully
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:57) *
QUOTE (nelly4eva3000 @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:51) *
Would be handy to have the name of the street please as I have a map and Order handy.


can i pm you the street? as im already paranoid about this especially since the cloning idea has been mentioned now


Yes, of course, please do. It's probably not a cloning job. If this were me, I would alert the Police, too. However, the problem at hand is this NtO. Do as Dad suggests and write/e-mail/phone Bradford to get this sorted and send all witness statements.


Messaged you also you mentioned has to be sent by first class and dates have to be same i don't think they are
Scaramouche
Well, there you go. Keep the evidence just in case we need it.
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 23:18) *
Well, there you go. Keep the evidence just in case we need it.


Your a legend thank you will keep you all updated thanks
Scaramouche
QUOTE (nelly4eva3000 @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 23:29) *
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 23:18) *
Well, there you go. Keep the evidence just in case we need it.


Your a legend thank you will keep you all updated thanks


Still living, fortunately for some! Thanks. rolleyes.gif Please post up the NtO as this will help us on another case - and, possibly, yours if they play silly bucharestis.
Scaramouche
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:51) *
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Thu, 17 Feb 2011 - 22:28) *
We also need to see the whole NtO. I have already found two issues with it re "within 28 days" ..............



Withins are qualified "begining with..." makes em compliant.

Unless you mean the within 28 days of ?????? in big bold in the opening paragrph laugh.gif


That's the one. I say out with the withins! sleep.gif
nelly4eva3000
UPDATE

Was in touch with the council and they have sent me photos of the incident and my worst fears have been confirmed it appears my plates have been cloned. Any help on how to deal with this matter will now be greatly appreciated.
Scaramouche
QUOTE (nelly4eva3000 @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 00:35) *
UPDATE

Was in touch with the council and they have sent me photos of the incident and my worst fears have been confirmed it appears my plates have been cloned. Any help on how to deal with this matter will now be greatly appreciated.


Calma. Is it the same make vehicle? Contact DVLA and Police. What do the council say re enforcing this? How did you contact the council? Ask them for the Tax Disc details and other details which identify the vehicle in contravention. Then compare with yours.
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 00:48) *
QUOTE (nelly4eva3000 @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 00:35) *
UPDATE

Was in touch with the council and they have sent me photos of the incident and my worst fears have been confirmed it appears my plates have been cloned. Any help on how to deal with this matter will now be greatly appreciated.


Calma. Is it the same make vehicle? Contact DVLA and Police. What do the council say re enforcing this? How did you contact the council? Ask them for the Tax Disc details and other details which identify the vehicle in contravention. Then compare with yours.



i emailed them i didn't say i was contesting the fine just that i wanted to view the photographs. The make and model is the same aswell. No photo of the tax disc was included do they usually note the tax disc details down?
Scaramouche
Not a statutory requirement but they usually have a photograph of it, yes. Time for your statements I think and the rest of the NtO and, if they claim a PCN has been served, on whom? And when? They should have a photo of that, too.
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 00:59) *
Not a statutory requirement but they usually have a photograph of it, yes. Time for your statements I think and the rest of the NtO and, if they claim a PCN has been served, on whom? And when? They should have a photo of that, too.


ok will have the rest of the nto up soon they haven't emailed me a photo of the tax disc so would you advise i email them and ask them for this?
Scaramouche
Yes and all previous advice, although now in a different order. TV time now. Good night!
DancingDad
Take photos of your own car from same angles.
Set them side by side with council photos and play spot the difference.
Position f tax disc, any dents, scratches, stickers on windscreeen, wheel trims....mark them.
Then go to police with your statements from boss etc, photos, NTO and report the problem.
There is a crime here if car is cloned, show why it must be to police and get a crime number.

Then with crime number and the rest we get back to council stating contravention did not occur, wasn't me etc etc
Scaramouche
Perhaps this should be another statutory ground? My car was cloned at the material time!
nelly4eva3000
Just a quick update. I have been in touch with the council asking for more information including CEO notes signed,dated and timed and details of the tax disc including photos

to which i received a reply which said:

Dear..........

There are no CEO notes, the information is all printed on the PCN, the Traffic Regulation Order can be viewed via the TPT website and no photographs were taken of your tax disc.



Also on a side note was just looking dates on the nto etc. Now i may be wrong here but on the nto it shows date of issue 13/2/11 and it states that the date the notice becomes effective is on the 2nd working day after date of issue which is the 15th however i didn't receive this till the 16th and the envelope is dated 15th do i have any grounds to stand on here?

and lastly since i never received a pcn am i able to request a copy of this from the council?

thank you

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 09:49) *
Take photos of your own car from same angles.
Set them side by side with council photos and play spot the difference.
Position f tax disc, any dents, scratches, stickers on windscreeen, wheel trims....mark them.
Then go to police with your statements from boss etc, photos, NTO and report the problem.
There is a crime here if car is cloned, show why it must be to police and get a crime number.

Then with crime number and the rest we get back to council stating contravention did not occur, wasn't me etc etc


May i just say that the photos taken are not the best quality on most photos the pictures are quite blurry
Scaramouche
There are no CEO notes, the information is all printed on the PCN, the Traffic Regulation Order can be viewed via the TPT website and no photographs were taken of your tax disc.

Also on a side note was just looking dates on the nto etc. Now i may be wrong here but on the nto it shows date of issue 13/2/11 and it states that the date the notice becomes effective is on the 2nd working day after date of issue which is the 15th however i didn't receive this till the 16th and the envelope is dated 15th do i have any grounds to stand on here?

and lastly since i never received a pcn am i able to request a copy of this from the council?


This is becoming more incredulous by the hour!

1. No CEO notes=no prima facie evidence. Get the CEO number and make a formal complaint Also get the PCN. Post up fotos of their evidence showing the PCN on the vehicle.

2. NtO: The date of the notice MUST be the same as the date of posting and MUST be sent by first class. I trust you are not going to lose that envelope. They are fecked! In fact, well and truly, as 13.2.2011 was a Sunday! FFS! WTF is going on here? wub.gif

As the date of the NtO is a Sunday, they have just proved that they could not have posted it on the same day!

Dear Sirs

You have provided me with a NtO dated 13.2.2011, which was posted on 15th February 2011. Further, you have not provided me any prima facie evidence via CEO's notes regarding this alleged contravention. Notwithstanding the issue of suspected cloning of my vehicle which, I emphasise, was not in Bradford on the said day and at the said time of the alleged contravention, you have failed to satisfy the basic premise of proving the grounds of the alleged contravention and have not abided by the regulations in regard to the issue of the NtO. Therefore, I now require you, without any further ado, to cancel this NtO, and any associated PCN issued against the said vehicle, forthwith and with immediate effect. Should you not do so, I shall be reporting this matter to the LGO, shall not hesitate to take the matter to adjudication for which I shall be claiming costs, and I will also consider other proceedings in terms of harassment in view of your gross maladministration.

Yours faithfully

(If they write back and say sorry about the date, tell them to take a day trip to Todmorden.)

***************************************************************

From Operational Guidance:

8.43 Photographs and notes by the CEO about the circumstances should be
kept as further evidence that the contravention took place and to help
resolve any disputes. Authorities should provide CEOs with the
appropriate equipment, training and guidance to collect such evidence
in the circumstances that the authority has prescribed. The use of
digital cameras and similar technology is strongly encouraged.
Authorities should disclose their evidence at the earliest
possible opportunity.
8.44 The CEO should record any additional information on their copy of the PCN
or on the HHC. This allows the authority to make validation checks, resolve
disputes, evaluate representations and respond to appeals. Annex C sets
out the sort of additional information that it may be prudent to note.


************************************************************

(2) A notice to owner served under paragraph (1) must, in addition to the matters required to be included in it under regulation 3(3) of the Representations and Appeals Regulations, state—

(a)the date of the notice, which must be the date on which the notice is posted;


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...ulation/19/made
DancingDad
Fecked is putting it mildy.

Apart from Vehicle not there and statements to verify.
(do report to police)
NTO issued on a Sunday when it could not be posted and not posted till two days later...keep the envelope.
No notes and blurry photos.
Cite Statutory Guidance rather then operational.... which is given clout by TMA2004 S87
QUOTE
Collecting evidence of contraventions
44. The local authority must provide evidence of the contravention either from a
CEO’s direct observation, or from the record of an approved device.
45. The PCN must25 either be fixed to the vehicle or given to the person who
appears to be in charge of that vehicle, although there are three exceptions to
this - see paragraph 47. The information that a PCN must contain is set
out in the Regulations. It is recommended that the PCN also gives:
· vehicle make and colour (if evident);
· detailed location of vehicle (full street name);
· the contravention code;
· observation start and finish times;
· PCN number (all PCNs should be uniquely identifiable);
· CEO’s identification number; and
· the vehicle’s tax disc number and expiry date.
46. Photographs and notes by the CEO about the circumstances should be kept
as further evidence that the contravention took place and to help resolve any
disputes. Authorities should provide CEOs with the appropriate equipment,
training and guidance to collect such evidence in the circumstances that the
authority has prescribed. The use of digital cameras and similar technology is
strongly encouraged. Authorities should disclose their evidence at the earliest
possible opportunity.
hcandersen
The OP can get themselves into a real lather with this, but so far all we seem to have is an apparently cloned vehicle whose description apparently matches that of the original car and in addition we have snippets of one-off bits of info obtained via telephone calls to unknown people at the council. As regards the NTO, it's difficult to fault the council so far, after all it's issued it to the RK provided by DVLA.

The only way to resolve this is to submit your formal reps and to compile these in a measured way and do it ASP - contravention did not occur. All the shortcomings of the council that you appear to have uncovered count for little pre-NTO, but come into their own post- NOR. So move ahead on contravention did not occur.

But what also appears to be the case is that your vehicle identity has been cloned. You now have photos (from a bona fide source) to support your argument so I would contact the police and DVLA.


HCA
Scaramouche
Quote HCA: As regards the NTO, it's difficult to fault the council so far, after all it's issued it to the RK provided by DVLA.

The fecking NtO was probably issued by a doctor in Todmorden FFS! Look at the date. Where is the rest of the NtO, please? And, if and when we see a PCN, that will be bollocks, too: no time of contravention etc.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...rt=#entry543867

The NtO contains two errors re timing, and Charge Certificate statement, for starters.

I would also require the Council when they contacted DVLA and all documentary details provided, as well as contact Police and DVLA. There is quite a long time from 6.01.2011 to 13.2.2011 - 39 days, in fact. Many councils issue straight away after 28 days.

******************************************************************

If we do end up challenging this NtO, I reckon the person typed a 3 instead of a 5, they meant to issue and post on the 15th, which means we calculate day 1 as the 17th i.e. the 1st day of the 28 day period. Well, that's being logical about it?
bama
not a major point considering the all round galactic feck ups here but did the council give the name of the Order on the TPT website ?
as they are this far 'out of tune' (with sanity) the TRO could be interesting...
Scaramouche
I'd agree with that, having got one of them re another case. Also, as the OP needs to be discrete, if there is just the name of the road, the inadequacy of the locus comes into play, too.
nelly4eva3000
Right thanx everyone for all your input im just at work now but hopefully should have the rest of the nto up later tonight. I get a feeling this is going to get really messy.

Can't see bradford council just accepting it and giving in.
Scaramouche
Just a question for nelly4eva3000: without divulging the name of the road, from the description on the NtO, would you know exactly where to look i.e. where the alleged contravention took place? This is an important question. Yes or no answer, please. wink.gif
Neil B
Obviously all the issues with NtO, vague locus and no CEO notes (luv that one!), etc. are valid and strong but could this not be simpler?

Cloned seems a certainty as far as OP is concerned. Can it not just be thrown back at the Council on that basis. Effectively, not the owner of THAT vehicle. Here is the crime ref/witness statements/pics - sort it yourselves!

The other matters are of general interest to contest, I agree, but are they of necessary interest to the OP in the circumstances?

Thinking about it, to make reps on anything other than the fact that the vehicle was cloned (notwithstanding - what ground applies) kinda decries the claim.

Thoughts?
bama
"I was never the owner of the vehicle"
Neil B
QUOTE (bama @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 22:35) *
"I was never the owner of the vehicle"


yeah. i'm thinking it would be an interesting test too and establish a precedent (broadest sense) for dealing with such instances?
Scaramouche
Agreed. I, for one, would not want to see a fully-blown appeal on this.
Neil B
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 22:43) *
Agreed. I, for one, would not want to see a fully-blown appeal on this.


- and if it did get very dirty, then OP has the perfect reason to use every point at the very latest stage if need be.

I'm just wondering - on that long list of other flaws. CEO notes would be kinda relevant from outset if you see what I mean?
Scaramouche
I just find the whole thing to be quite incredulous and, when in Greece, I shall try to avoid listening to "Never on a Sunday"! laugh.gif
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Tue, 22 Feb 2011 - 21:16) *
Just a question for nelly4eva3000: without divulging the name of the road, from the description on the NtO, would you know exactly where to look i.e. where the alleged contravention took place? This is an important question. Yes or no answer, please. wink.gif


To answer your question i don't think it would be possible to tell exactly where the contravention took place. The reason being for this is the road itself must be over a mile and a half to two miles long and mentions that the car was parked in a loading bay i guess i would have to drive up and down the road and see exactly where they have loading bays on this road.

I have also posted up the rest of the NTO and have also emailed bradford council again asking for a copy of the pcn that was originally issued to the vehicle in question maybe just maybe that will have a road tax disc number on it which would put me in the clear but i am not going to get my hopes up as they have already said they have no information of the tax disc
Scaramouche
Thanks, that's the right answer. And we have a case to quote for that. Will look at the NtO in detail. Thanks for posting it. Just the two pages?
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Wed, 23 Feb 2011 - 00:43) *
Thanks, that's the right answer. And we have a case to quote for that. Will look at the NtO in detail. Thanks for posting it. Just the two pages?


yeah just them two and the envelope which il be sleeping with under my pillow lol
Scaramouche
Make sure you dry your hair first. laugh.gif
nelly4eva3000
Just a quick update on this. Emailed the council over 48 hours ago asking to see a copy of the pcn that was originally issued to the vehicle but still no reply. No email to acknowledge they have received my email which they did do in the first few emails i sent them either.
Scaramouche
Have you reported to Police and DVLA yet?
nelly4eva3000
QUOTE (Scaramouche @ Fri, 25 Feb 2011 - 00:25) *
Have you reported to Police and DVLA yet?


Been down to police station and to be honest they were not very helpful at all showed them the pictures of the car officer at the desk said we can't give you a crime reference number no crime has been committed as of yet its your word against bradford council however if and quite likely he said the car with my plates on is used for things like and i quote robbery and driving off from filing stations then they might be able to help.

Im keeping copies of these emails that i have sent to the council incase they try saying they never got them
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