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AndrewGT
Hi,

Basically, something i thought i had got away with has come back to haunt me.

Recieved my summons yesterday through the post from Ellesmere Port & Neston Magistrates court, which says that i drove without due care and attention, The statement of facts is pretty long, and to sum up says

"You were observed driving along the M56, overtook a police car at excessive speed, drove at a minimum of 100mph apart from when held up by other vehicles, was at one point 9 meters behind another car, taking a wide, agressive stance, then accelerated to 110mph for one and a half miles, left to join the M53, accelerated to 115mph and continued to accelerate to in excess of 120mph, then was stopped"

I disagree with the manner of driving, but admit that the speed is probably right. I know it was wrong, and i sold the car soon after as i didnt want to be in that position again. I do NOT regularly speed, i needed to get down to my girlfriends house as quickly as possible that day.

It was an empty, clear road, i dont agree i was tailgating to that extreme.

The police officer was alone in the car. There was no VASCAR. He states in his statement that he was in an unmarked car, but i dont know any unmarked cars that are white, have POLICE written down the side and have lights on top.

When he stopped me, he said "you mustnt have been looking in your rear view mirrors as you didnt see me". This may be true, but if he is now claiming he was in an unmarked car, why would i have had any reason to take notice of him?

Why did he follow me for 7 miles if he thought i was a danger to other road users?

Could i take the angle that i thought i was being pursued by someone with a grudge? Ie road rage?

I have a clean license and no previous convictions.

Please help! I need to know what i can do to reduce the damage. Obviously a ban is going to make things difficult, as i use my car every day, and there is no real alternative to doing that.

Thanks a lot,
Andrew
matt1133
Did you receive a NIP or were you stopped?
AndrewGT
I was stopped.
AndrewGT
Oh, also -

Do i need to send my driving license if pleading guilty by post?

There is a section about mitigating circumstances - is it acceptable to write "see attached sheet" and write an essay?

Thanks
johnc
I am in court tues for same offence plus others  :roll:

Worse scenario - 6 months inside
matt1133
[forum link]
This is a link for mitigation,

I would wait for another member to advise, but i don't think that there is much 'wriggle room' as you were stopped,

did the policeman say you would be reported and to expect a summons? does it say that in his witness statement?

in regards to sending off the licence, you must take it when you go to court, both parts of it, it is not essential to send it off prior to trial

cheers,
matt
AndrewGT
I will not be attending court, and im pleading by post, does that make a difference to having to send off my license?

I am fully aware that I wont get out of this, like i said - damage limitation is the key here.

The policeman did say "expect a summons". In his witness statement it just said that he reported me for this.

I could type out his statement if that helps?
matt1133
If you could type it up it may help others with more knowledge of such cases, could you remove personal info too when doing so,

cheers,
matt
g_attrill
Is it just DWDCA or speeding etc?

On the unmarked front there are two things - it might look better with the mistake left in, because being caught by an unmarked car looks better to the mags because if they read that you were alleged to have done various things in the shadow of a marked car then it would look worse.

If you are expecting a ban then you usually need to turn up anyway, so it might be worth composing a mitigation statement that you can read out. I don't think many bans get handed down for DWCDA, but I could be wrong.

Gareth
AndrewGT
All it says on the summons is driving without due care and attention, ill type up the officers statement now.
AndrewGT
"I am constable ***** of the Cheshire constabulary, based at Ellesmere Port police station. At 8.25pm, Friday 4th Februart 2005 I was on uniformed police patrol duties in an unmarked Ford Mondeo police vehicle, reg *******, fitted with a calibrated speedometer, serial number ******, travelling westbound along the M56 Motorway, in the vicinity of the Clifton interchange.

At this time, a black Toyota MR2 vehicle, reg ******* overtook me, clearly travelling at excessive speed. I accelerated, in order to follow and monitor this vehicle. I noted that the toyotas speed was at a minimum of 100mph at all times, except when held up momentarily by other vehicles in front. On one such occasion, when there was another vehicle in front of the Toyota in lane 3, the Toyota took up a position very close to the vehicle in front. I watched both vehicles pass a pair of "cats eyes" which formed part of the lane markings, and could see that the Toyota was exactly the same distance behind the lead car, as the distance between 2 "cats eyes". This is a standard distance of 9 metres, and as such, the TOYOTA was only 9 metres behind the car in front. Not only was the Toyota far too close to the vehicle in front, but it also took a very wide position, such that its offside tyres were almost on the solid white line, denoting the limit of the carriageway, before the central reservation. By taking and maintaining this position, the Toyota was clarly trying to force the vehicle in front to move over, out of the way. The Toyota maintained this aggresive position for 1/2 mile on one occasion, at approx 80mph, before the vehicle in front moved over.

Having got passed this car, the Totota then accelerated to 110mph, which it maintained for 1 1/2 miles on the M56.

The Toyota then left the M56, taking the slip road to join the southbound M53 towards Chester. Once on the M53, the Toyota acelerated quickly away from me. I accelerated to 115mph, but the Toyota was still gaining distance on me. It must have been travelling in excess of 120mph. The Toyota then got held up by more traffic, and so once I came behind it again, I caused it to stop, and spoke to the driver, who identified himself to me as (me).

I explained why I had stopped him, pointed out the offences to him and cautioned him, to which he replied "I've got a lot on my mind, and my speedo light doesnt work, so I couldnt see it"

The standard and manner of (my) driving, apart from being far in excess of the 70mph limit, was far below that of a careful and competent driver, in that he was driving in an aggresive manner, forcing other drivers to move over, and wasn't even in a position to be able to monitor his speed, due to a defective speedometer light.

I then reported (me) for all offences disclosed, to which he made no reply.

I then checked his driving documents.

I later conducted a measured mile at 60mph at the A540 Two Mills, using a callibrated stop watch, serial number ******, which confirmed my vehicles speedometer as being accurate.

(Signed)."

Thats the full thing, spelling mistakes included.
AndrewGT
help sad.gif
bigstoop
You were testing out the capabilities of your car....  :wink:
zamzara
QUOTE (johnc)
Worse scenario - 6 months inside


Not in this case. That is the max in your case as you are charged with failing to stop. Driving without due care is max 3-9 points or ban and max £2500 fine.
AndrewGT
what do you think will be the likely outcome, considering that...

The statement states speeds of "in excess of 120mph".

but

There is no video evidence.
The roads were clear and empty.
The police car was "unmarked", even though thats a lie.
The officer was alone.
My license is clean.

Can i pursue the 3 points, hefty fine angle?

If i get 6 points, i lose my license, as i havent been driving 2 years yet.

Thanks
Mika
QUOTE (AndrewGT)
but

There is no video evidence.
The roads were clear and empty.
The police car was "unmarked", even though thats a lie.
The officer was alone.


Precedent was set long before video was invented:

Weatherhogg v Johns (1931) 95JP Jo 364, DC.
Russell v Beasley [1937] I All ER 527, DC.

In these cases the defendant was convicted on the evidence of one police officer following the defendant's car and noting the speedometer reading on the police vehicle, and of a person who checked the speedometer and found it to be recording accurately.
AndrewGT
I know, and im aware that I was never going to get away from it... sad.gif

What do you think the likely penalty will be though? does the fact that its a first offence even matter?
firefly
As I see it, you're shafted.  

Your only possible hope is that you were not given a notice of intended prosecution, or don't appear to have.  There is nothing to stop the officer from saying that he did in any case.

You really need to speak to a solicitor if you want to hold onto your licence I fancy.  Sorry.
AndrewGT
I wasnt given ANYTHING by the officer, didnt sign anything either.

I cant afford a solicitor. So im looking at a ban. but how long?
AndrewGT
Just spoke to my girlfriends uncle, who was an assistant chief constable.

He says to write and ask for evidence of calibration before and after the offence, and ask why, if the officer thought his speedo was accurate, that he needed to test it straight after the offence?

He says, if proven, im probably looking at 6 months ban, which i can probably take.

thoughts?
AndrewGT
***help****

Ok, on the plea/mitigation form - is it acceptable to attatch another sheet of paper? as you can only write maybe 5 sentences on the actual form?

Thanks. Need to know quick
andy_foster
To slightly misquote Lord Woolf of Barnes, Lord Chief Justice and Master of the Rolls, as long as it is reasonable, then it is lawful.
AndrewGT
Its just theres a lot of stuff to say why i shouldnt be banned... but i need 2 pages to write it all
DW190
QUOTE (AndrewGT)
Its just theres a lot of stuff to say why i shouldnt be banned... but i need 2 pages to write it all


Magic Words

Continued on separate sheets.
chadders
I trust considering the nature of the alleged offence you're going to be appearing in person?

If so, just provide a summary on the form - they will expect you to verbally explain mitigation (not read from printed sheets). So, bullet points & practice, practice, practice. Your mitigation on the form won't be read until the day anyway.

nb: as advised to myself from these forums.
AndrewGT
No im not appearing in person. Ive just expected a ban and sorted lifts out for the next 6 months, just in case, and it would be incredibly difficult to actually get to court, considering its a monday morning, 250 miles away from where i live.

I just want to write a good enough letter. A ban is fine, retaking my test is NOT.
chadders
If they're considering a ban I think they'll want you there, or perhaps a solicitor in your place - this is to ensure you are fully aware that you are banned and don't drive with any excuse of not knowing.

I'd certainly check on this.
The Rookie
Surely he is guilty of speeding but not necesarily of DWDCA, I would suggest that without video evidence you may have a reasonable case for contesting that one, or at least arguing down what he has said, if it were speeding I agree you would be sh@fted, but thats an absolute offnce, DWDCA is a matter of opinion......

Simon
peteturbo
Noone has addressed wether DWDCAA can get legal aid - i thought it could.

Would you be better off using a solictor to bargain it down to speeding?  Its a bit late, but if you rang a specialist and they confirmed this, you could presumably inform the court and ask for legal aid and an ajournment.

problem is the speed you could get it to.  120 wouldnt help, although the insurance angle of DWDCAA may be much worse than speeding - again you need to check with your insurers.
AndrewGT
Hi,

checked with the insurers and it looks like what im up against here is either having an CR30 or an SP50 (as well as the sp50 from my other offence)

The insurance will mean an increase of £200 for the CR30, and £100 for the SP50. The ban length and points make no difference at all.

My question now is, the summons clearly said I am being summonsed for DRIVING WITHOUT DUE CARE AND ATTENTION, but the officers statement mentioned the speeds involved (he "must" have been travelling in excess of 120mph). Can i be convicted of the CR30 and SP50 together?

My other question is this - I am a "new driver". I would have been driving 2 years in september. If i get 6 points for this (and i most likely will) can they ban me for the other SP50?

For example, can they revoke my license for the accumulation of 6 points in 2 years, then tell me I cant take a driving test for a year, for example?

Thanks
DW190
QUOTE
For example, can they revoke my license for the accumulation of 6 points in 2 years, then tell me I cant take a driving test for a year, for example?



I would think one or the other.

Either revoke licence for six points which means sitting another test.
or
A one year ban.  But because you are a new driver you would still have to sit another test.

I have just had the result of a young driver (provisional licence) who was involved in an accident whilst driving unaccompanied.  No other vehicle involved and he managed to overturn the car on the motorway.

He entered a plea of guilty, guilty and guilty and grovelled for his life.

Bloody amazing what grovelling does.  He got £65 fine + £35 costs and 4 penalty points.

He should have been banned for at least one year.
AndrewGT
Ah i see....

This complicates things. I was talking to an ex traffic cop friend, and he said that If I was banned, even as a new driver, I wouldnt have to retake my test, id just get my license back, providing I didnt get 6 points.

Hopefully they will just revoke my license. Ill rebook my test as soon as I step out of court.

Maybe I should grovel too... ha ha
smokey
You will only have to take a retest if you are banned for 'totting up', if you just get a straight ban then you will not have to retake your test.
Hope this helps

Smokey
AndrewGT
it does help mate, thanks smile.gif

Well it was in court at 10:00 this morning. Anyone know how long its gonna take now before I hear anything?

Ive heard a month if they need to haul me back in?

Also, do i HAVE to go to be disqualified? Cant i send a representative?

I CANT get down to the court any time soon, without a car.
AndrewGT
Results today

I got 9 points, £400 fine and £20 costs

BUT they let me drive away?

Oh well, Im happy. No ban smile.gif
matt1133
what was your mitigation statement?

very lucky to escape a ban after looking back over the thread
AndrewGT
I basically went on about how i was ashamed to be in front of them, etc etc.

Then they said would it affect my job, i said "yes", and they went out to decide, then they came back in and said "you were very close to disqualification, but because you seem to have remorse for what you have done, and judging on your previously clean license, we have decided not to disqualify you".

I was happy smile.gif
peteturbo
I'd like to say well done, but looking back over the posts I just dont know.

The police officer was obviously very concerned about your bad driving, and quotes you at speeds up to 120mph.

Apparently you did not question his assessment.

Given the above, where is our system of justice?
AndrewGT
I didnt question him because I dont think he has deliberately tried to make things worse. He was right, I was driving like a twat.

Im happy with the result. I think it was fair
g_attrill
If you were given 9 points then the DVLA will revoke your licence. They may not have spotted this in court, but I would definately check up on this. I have previously read that the courts don't have the power to issue 6+ points and let you keep your licence, it is out of their hands.

If your licence is revoked then you need to get straight on to applying for a provisional licence and booking the tests. You might find that calling around the local test centres will get you a cancellation sooner than the normal 6+ week wait.

Gareth
AndrewGT
Thats what I was hoping for - A retest is easy. 6 Months sitting around waiting to drive again isnt.

They did mention retaking my test. But they said that I should just wait for the DVLA to get in touch. Lets hope that one strings out for months too smile.gif
Insider
Magistrates association guidance on the matter says:

QUOTE (© Minute 2148 ­ Road Traffic (New Drivers) Act 1995 JCS News Sheet 07/2004)
had been circulated to members. This advised that if a new driver was given six-points or more and was going to have his/her licence revoked under the 1995 Act, the court should take the driving licence from the defendant where possible. Liz Barnett said that in the interests of justice, the court should make it clear to the defendant that s/he may go on driving until the licence was officially revoked by the DVLA.


So thats why, but i'll bet you the DVLA aren't slow to revoke it  icon_wink.gif
viper
Remember the 9 points will stay on your license for three years. So if you get done for any endorse able offence during the next three years you will hit 12 points and be looking at disqualification.

Also your insurance is going to be nuts – you will have to contact one of them specialist firms
Bob_Sprocket
QUOTE (AndrewGT)
Results today  

I got 9 points, £400 fine and £20 costs

BUT they let me drive away?

Oh well, Im happy. No ban smile.gif


Hi,

Was that for speeding or DWDCAA or a mix of the two?

If you were summonsed for speeding what was the exact wording on the summons?

Bob
peteturbo
Andy,

It appears I did not fully understand the situation.  So effectively you are not banned, but become a learner again from the date of DVLA notification until you retake your test and pass?  Is that right?

If you're happy with that then it seems fair.

My point was that if a policeman says you are driving badly and presents statenments of innapropriate speed, then I'm afraid that without either an effective challenge, or excellent mitigation, some form of ban (which I count this as) is inevitable for the public eye.

Personally I'd prefer a ban than a retake, but thats up to you.

My stance is that cameras and scammers cannot decide between innapropriate speed - which is NOT a crime (but should be), and speeding which IS a crime (and should NOT be).

The only way to support this is to crack down on  eg DWDCAA, DD, etc which is proven by a police officer, and presents a genuine threat to other road users.  From the comments you have posted, it appears you agree.
Insider
QUOTE
It appears I did not fully understand the situation.  So effectively you are not banned, but become a learner again from the date of DVLA notification until you retake your test and pass?  Is that right?


Aye  icon_wink.gif

And I'd also prefer the ban, but it appears AndrewGT doesn't have a choice in the matter coming under the provisions of the 'New Drivers Act'

Of course, if he ignores the DVLA revocation letter and gets pulled etc, then he will get  :sex: up the a$$
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