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ForumUser000
Hi all. I am seeking some advice.

I have a yearly (paid) parking permit to park on a road near my house. I park in the spot every day and the traffic attendant who patrols that road knows my car and that I have a yearly permit to park there. I went to visit a friend (who lives in the same borough - Lewisham) and paid for an hour to park there. I displayed the ticket in my windscreen permit pouch.

When I returned home and parked, I forgot to remove the parking ticket I had paid for at my friends house. The next morning I was issued with a PCN and asked to pay 80 pounds, reduced to 40 if paid within a certain time limit.

I am angry about this as I pay to park near my own house and I pay when I park elsewhere. I abide by their rules, although I don't agree with them, and they still try and sting the law abiding citizen. I feel like I am being treated like some kind of criminal who is in the wrong here.

As for the bay I was parked in - it was a permit holders/pay and display/ parking area, which I always park in, on a residential road. I can provide photos if this helps.

Please see the PCN attached. Do they provide enough information on appeals here? There doesn't seem to be much.


I am grateful for any help and advice offered and happy to clarify anything that is not clear.

Thanks

ForumUser000




Front:




Back:

dave-o
Are you saying that you had a permit for the bay, and you still got ticketed? What has this got to do with the P&D ticket at your friend's place? I'm confused.
DancingDad
Stuck the P&D for elsewhere in front of Residents permit...hence PCN

IS the bit you've blanked out headed In the name of the road ???
jamesabbott
what road is it at the moment the location is down as outside 51


he had covered up his own permit with the p&d ticket from his friends
dave-o
QUOTE (jamesabbott @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 16:31) *
he had covered up his own permit with the p&d ticket from his friends



What a strange thing to do.
Steve Westham
I am sure that you already know but you are fighting with SCUM! There are a million and one ways for these unelected unemployable ***** to issue tickets for one thing and another. If your car was broken into nobody would have seen or done a thing. The motorist is an easy touch and until we all sell our cars Councils will continue to fleece us.

Clearly you have a permit and that should be good enough to waive the fine but NO, the offence is for not clearly displaying a valid permit, How convenient for them. I hope they all rot.
ForumUser000
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 16:28) *
Stuck the P&D for elsewhere in front of Residents permit...hence PCN

IS the bit you've blanked out headed In the name of the road ???


I'm not sure I understand what you mean? I have blanked out the name of the road, and the door number was 51 if that offers any explanation.

QUOTE (Steve Westham @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 16:44) *
I am sure that you already know but you are fighting with SCUM! There are a million and one ways for these unelected unemployable ***** to issue tickets for one thing and another. If your car was broken into nobody would have seen or done a thing. The motorist is an easy touch and until we all sell our cars Councils will continue to fleece us.

Clearly you have a permit and that should be good enough to waive the fine but NO, the offence is for not clearly displaying a valid permit, How convenient for them. I hope they all rot.


And what bothers me is that when he put in my reg number to print the ticket, my car comes up as having a valid permit to park there! I agree with all you said, I hate them, it's like the legal mafia or something.
jamesabbott
he asked if you covered the name of the road. if outside 15 is the only location on the pcn then you dont have to worry about it, but if you have just covered it it would be nice for us to know so we can look at the area on google maps

on the pcn one of the points just says the word "in" does that have the name of the road
ForumUser000
Yes, I obscured it. It read 51 Whitburn Road (SE13). This is the link to it on google maps http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...ingdom&z=16

Thanks
jamesabbott
on google (i think im looking at the right bay) the bay is hybrid (not that your get away with just that) and the sign i do not think is a permitted variant. the sign says pay and display or permit holder only. doesnt the only have to be dropped when in use with something else
hcandersen
So, putting emotion to one side:

You parked; you weren't displaying the required permit; you got a PCN. As a resident in that CPZ you should be grateful that your council is being vigilant in protecting your CPZ for which you've paid them.

The CEO issued a PCN, perfectly properly if he couldn't see a permit.

So, put in an informal challenge stating that you've got a valid permit but that it had become obscured.

They should cancel the PCN.

But if they don't, then no more Mr Nice Guy, we look into every nook, cranny, crevice, order, rule, regulation to find a reason to get it cancelled. And we're pretty good at this.


It's up to the council.

HCA
ForumUser000
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 18:52) *
So, putting emotion to one side:

You parked; you weren't displaying the required permit; you got a PCN. As a resident in that CPZ you should be grateful that your council is being vigilant in protecting your CPZ for which you've paid them.

The CEO issued a PCN, perfectly properly if he couldn't see a permit.

So, put in an informal challenge stating that you've got a valid permit but that it had become obscured.

They should cancel the PCN.

But if they don't, then no more Mr Nice Guy, we look into every nook, cranny, crevice, order, rule, regulation to find a reason to get it cancelled. And we're pretty good at this.

It's up to the council.

HCA


OK, I can do this. I have a suspicion it will be fruitless however - the offence is for not displaying a permit, not for not having one, and I'm sure they will stick rigidly to this and ask me to pay. Perhaps I could find a get-out clause and mention it in my polite informal challenge?
DancingDad
QUOTE (ForumUser000 @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 19:22) *
.............. I have a suspicion it will be fruitless however - the offence is for not displaying a permit, not for not having one, and I'm sure they will stick rigidly to this and ask me to pay. Perhaps I could find a get-out clause and mention it in my polite informal challenge?



Not disagreeing too much with HCA but I'd suggest being economical with the truth (but not lying)...so don't admit or say the permit was covered.
I'd phrase the informal as failing to understand why you were issued a PCN when you were parked as allowed, in a permit holder's bay when you have a valid permit. Here's a copy of it and you're certain that their records will confirm your entitlement.
And if they do believe the contravention is valid could they explain why and provide any supporting evidence such as CEO notes and photos.

Do keep it non contraventional and polite, we are hoping for mitagation with this and a council following it's duty of discretion properly would certainly cancel. (No laughing at the back) and we should get to see what photos and notes the CEO took.

ForumUser000
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 20:55) *
QUOTE (ForumUser000 @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 19:22) *
.............. I have a suspicion it will be fruitless however - the offence is for not displaying a permit, not for not having one, and I'm sure they will stick rigidly to this and ask me to pay. Perhaps I could find a get-out clause and mention it in my polite informal challenge?



Not disagreeing too much with HCA but I'd suggest being economical with the truth (but not lying)...so don't admit or say the permit was covered.
I'd phrase the informal as failing to understand why you were issued a PCN when you were parked as allowed, in a permit holder's bay when you have a valid permit. Here's a copy of it and you're certain that their records will confirm your entitlement.
And if they do believe the contravention is valid could they explain why and provide any supporting evidence such as CEO notes and photos.

Do keep it non contraventional and polite, we are hoping for mitagation with this and a council following it's duty of discretion properly would certainly cancel. (No laughing at the back) and we should get to see what photos and notes the CEO took.





OK I will take the course of action you guys have outlined, thanks. I take it I send it to the address for 'Enquiries'? that's all I can see on there.
DancingDad
QUOTE (ForumUser000 @ Fri, 14 Jan 2011 - 00:49) *
................OK I will take the course of action you guys have outlined, thanks. I take it I send it to the address for 'Enquiries'? that's all I can see on there.


Looks like you can email as well if you want...but if you do not get an acknowledgement email back, copy it via snail mail, recorded delivery
From lambeth parking site
http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/Transpo...hargeNotice.htm

QUOTE
Alternatively, you can email us at pcnappeal@lambeth.gov.uk putting the PCN number, for example 'LH12345678', in the subject heading. Please ensure you include a return postal address as we will need to respond to you by post.
makara
Dancing Dad - I agree with the "economical" (but not lying) angle.

Had a very similar issue in December 2009 during the heavy London snows - near-identical to the OP's, except it wasn't a P and D ticket obscuring the Resident Permit, but the "MOT due on" reminder sticker that had PARTIALLY fallen in front of the Permit

- BUT any fool could see MOST of the Permit (despite partial obscuirty, although it wasn't helped by the snow and ice covering my windscreen too I suppose!).

If required I can copy and paste my appeal (to my local council's parking E-mail address) - and their response (they cancelled the PCN just a couple of days later, and warned me in future to display it clearly at all times).

However, not sure if the Mods here will allow me pasting those things "verbatim" - so will wait for someone to say Yay or Nay - but I *do* think it may help the O.P. if he uses the same wording.

Oh well, here goes - hope the OP is reading this -

My challenge obviously modified to hide personal bits -

++++

Dear Council Parking,


I was parked in M. Road with my Parking Permit for Lala Land Town Centre displayed on the Windscreen - but was shocked to find a Parking ticket # 12345678 on my car (REG # JAMES BOND 1), saying I had not displayed a Permit (etc).


Since I live at E. Road, and I know Parking Wardens pass there daily and they see the Parking Badge clearly displayed (as I never get a ticket) - I am baffled as to why I should get one when I have not moved the Permit at all, as it is (and was) clearly on Display.


I have parked on 2 more days in that Road (M. Road) this week itself - and never received a ticket on those days, so today should be no different! The Permit IS there all the time.


Please respond to receipt of this E-mail ASAP.


Many thanks - James B.

++++

Council's response (just 5 days later) -

****

Dear James B.,

Thank you for your letter challenging this Penalty Charge Notice.

After due consideration of the facts in this case, the Council is willing in this instance and without prejudice to its position, to cancel the Penalty Charge Notice.

However, I would ask you for the future, to carefully observe any restrictions in force, including the hours of operation applicable and any terms and conditions which may apply at any location when and wherever you choose to park within the London Borough of Lala Land.


Yours sincerely,

Council Parking

****
ForumUser000
DancingDad and Makara, thank you very much. It is Lewisham council however, not Lambeth biggrin.gif

I will get writing this letter... Thanks for the template.
DancingDad
QUOTE (ForumUser000 @ Fri, 14 Jan 2011 - 14:39) *
DancingDad and Makara, thank you very much. It is Lewisham council however, not Lambeth biggrin.gif

I will get writing this letter... Thanks for the template.


I was having a bad night last night...advise was good, details got a little muddled, apologies.

Watch the phrasing...chances are this letter could be scrutinised by an adjudicator and there are hi penalites for outright lies. Apart from the penalty aspect, being caught out taints anything you say later.
But you don't have to say the permit was obscured, let them deduce that from whatever evidence the CEO produces.
makara
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 14 Jan 2011 - 16:19) *
you don't have to say the permit was obscured, let them deduce that from whatever evidence the CEO produces.


DD,

Agree totally here

- when I sent my informal appeal the main thing I was worried about was whether the Warden had taken photos - my success means either they didn't

- or the Council decided that as I am a bona fide Resident Permit payer they simply let it slide

- or felt it too much work looking at the photos

(although at a £50 fine, I doubt that last assumption :-)).
ForumUser000
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 14 Jan 2011 - 16:19) *
QUOTE (ForumUser000 @ Fri, 14 Jan 2011 - 14:39) *
DancingDad and Makara, thank you very much. It is Lewisham council however, not Lambeth biggrin.gif

I will get writing this letter... Thanks for the template.


I was having a bad night last night...advise was good, details got a little muddled, apologies.

Watch the phrasing...chances are this letter could be scrutinised by an adjudicator and there are hi penalites for outright lies. Apart from the penalty aspect, being caught out taints anything you say later.
But you don't have to say the permit was obscured, let them deduce that from whatever evidence the CEO produces.


Cool, so something along the lines of me politely asking why I was issued a PCN when I was parked somewhere to have a permit to park, and that their records will confirm this, along with attached picture of receipt?

Thanks
DancingDad
Yup
If they are exercising their powers of discretion correctly, they should cancel
They probably wont but it shows that you've been forced into further challenges and ultimately an appeal to adjudicators..helps to get them on your side.
makara
If the Warden who issued the ticket DID take photos of your windscreen, and they provide you with them - post them up here

- common sense IMO should dictate that *IF* they could see the *critical* Detail on the Permit, then they could have used discretion to NOT issue the PCN.

Now in this case - (assuming) the Warden was aware of the presence of the Resident Permit, despite it being obscured by a
P & D ticket...then I would think (or hope!) that an Adjudicator would surely take into account there would be no earthly REASON why a Resident would KNOWINGLY obscure his own Permit on his own Road!!

I guess it boils down to whether "no knowledge of" the contravention is a plausible argument...and to repeat - what would the Resident gain by wilfully obscuring his permit, or wilfully not putting it on his windscreen? Since these permits tend to have the Car Registration typed on them, it's not as if they can be "loaned" to friends ;-) .

A quick phone call by the Warden to the Parking Office of the Council he/she works for should arguably instantly tell him/her whether a Resident has a Permit for that particular car - although I guess the PCN in this case was NOT for (1) "not having a Permit" - but rather for (2) "not displaying it fully" - but am angling at this from the point of view of the former statement perhaps negating the latter statement in the eyes of a fair and reasonable Adjudicator...

OP, do post photos if you get them from the Council please.

If the Council tell you the Warden took no photos, then I suppose it will merely boil down to a case of
"he says / you say" - or his eyes versus your eyes :-)
hcandersen
Just get your informal reps submitted and get the ball rolling - sooner done, sooner resolved, one way or the other.


HCA

clark_kent
QUOTE (makara @ Sun, 16 Jan 2011 - 05:56) *
there would be no earthly REASON why a Resident would KNOWINGLY obscure his own Permit on his own Road!!



Apart from it may have expired or been for another VRM and he was hoping the CEO would not notice.
bama
and was the level of detail obscured in this case ?
ForumUser000
Thanks Makara. I have a sneaking suspicion that it was fully obscured! sad.gif

Ah and can someone confirm that I send it to the addres made out for 'enquires' on the back?
ForumUser000
QUOTE (jamesabbott @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 18:45) *
on google (i think im looking at the right bay) the bay is hybrid (not that your get away with just that) and the sign i do not think is a permitted variant. the sign says pay and display or permit holder only. doesnt the only have to be dropped when in use with something else


I'm not sure I FULLY understand, but perhaps this wll allow an excemption should it get to a formal appeal?
ForumUser000
Appeal sent off and am awaiting response. Will update shortly!
ForumUser000
After a long time waiting, I finally received a response. They have waived the charges (notable that they in fact did have a picture of my permit being obscured too). Many thanks to all who helped, I am very very grateful for all the advice.
makara
YAY! Well done! Brilliant result - persistence pays off, and the Council use common sense discretion too!
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