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Matt_5805
Hi all,

This is the first PCN I have ever received and suffice to say, I'm pretty miffed to put it nicely.

Situation was that at xmas I went to visit my family in Chester. One morning I took my sister into town to drop her off at her work. I got to the street, on which many many people stop on a daily basis to pick-up/drop-off (I used to live in Chester), and stopped on the side of the road to let my sister out. I must have been stopped no more than about 10 seconds. However, where I stopped was in a taxi rank which, from memory, was pretty empty.

From what I can tell having read various forums and having checked on Google Street View, the taxi rank has the correct yellow box area and accompanying signs on the roadside poles. However, as I was completely unaware that stopping for enough time to kick someone out the car was an offence, I now have the PCN through my door and just want to check if this can be challenged.

I've uploaded some pics of the PCN together with some pics i've taken from StreetView. Unfortunately, I live a fair distance from Chester now and can't go back to get actual photos so please bear with me.

Pics of the PCN
PCN1 – http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=34xmkrc&s=7
PCN2 – http://tinypic.com/r/63u3ap/7
PCN3 – http://tinypic.com/r/2jeuxqu/7

Pics of the taxi rank
TR_Left – http://tinypic.com/r/25amcg7/7
TR_Right – http://tinypic.com/r/ine2rl/7
TR_All – http://tinypic.com/r/2utn6le/7

Pics of the roadside signs
TR_Sign1 – http://tinypic.com/r/23vcbuu/7 (Apologies for clarity)
TR_Sign2 – http://tinypic.com/r/aonu3n/7 (Again this isn't very clear, however appears to read 'No stopping except taxis')

I've read on one forum that the word 'Taxis' should be written on the road at least once every 12 metres, however I don't know how true this is. From the pics, the taxi rank appears to be the length of 3 shops which I would be surprised if these three in total were less than the suggested 12 metres.

If I have missed any information that you may need please let me know. I'd really appreciate any input you may have.

Cheers
Matt
DancingDad
Didn't know chester were approved for camera enforcement.
PCN looks compliant

What's on the rest of the PCN like the payment slip? .. more pics please we need to see all of it.
Bogsy
I suggest asking the council to provide evidence that the camera used is indeed certified as an "approved device".
DancingDad
They are certified for civil parking enforcement approved devises according to DFT list
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tpm/tmapor...roveddevicelist

Since 1-11-10
Matt_5805
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 8 Jan 2011 - 12:12) *
Didn't know chester were approved for camera enforcement.
PCN looks compliant

What's on the rest of the PCN like the payment slip? .. more pics please we need to see all of it.


The doc pics I posted were all I received. The details of payment are on the forms.

Thanks


Without wanting to sound ignorant, what are the chances of a successful appeal based on the arguement that I was unaware of the signs until I pulled over (which is true). As the time of the incident matches the time at which the offence finished (the part which says 'Observed from: To: 9:55'), this would in effect, back-up my arguement that on seeing the sign I immediately pulled away (was stationary for less than a minute)?

Or would they just throw this back as an inadmissable arguement because 'no stopping means no stopping'?

p.s. thanks for the replies so far
bama
didn't we find some large potential problems with Traffic Orders in Chester ?

worth digging out the threads....
Matt_5805
QUOTE (bama @ Sat, 8 Jan 2011 - 15:42) *
didn't we find some large potential problems with Traffic Orders in Chester ?

worth digging out the threads....


Thanks i'll see what i can find
Matt_5805
Quick question on my case. Does there need to be clear signs stating that CCTV is being used in the area for the PCN to be valid? If yes, what are the general rules about placement of these signs?

Thanks in advance
Matt_5805
OK so i don't seem to have had much luck finding a solution.

As a last resort, do general appeal letters ever work? i.e. more of a plea based on not knowing the area/not noticing the sign until stopped/first offence etc?

Thanks
bama
have you dug out the Chester threads ?
Matt_5805
QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 21:00) *
have you dug out the Chester threads ?

I've had a look over a number of them and one of the key points that gets made for grounds of appeal seem to be a case - Al's Bar v Wandsworth relating to the 28 days for payment to be made. To be honest though, the number of acts and specific wordings is confusing the hell out of me.

Can you see anything obvious on the PCN which looks worth looking into more, possibly around the 28 day payment wording?

Thanks
DancingDad
PCN looks compliant.
Unlikely to be a boarding alighting exemption in a taxi bay but don't discount it....silly thing is if you'd gone past and the missus had got in on the double yellows by the island they probably couldn't have touched you..worth bearing in mind for future, don't help now.

Bay looks okay without putting a tape rule on the dimensions..if you can do so.

Lack of CCTV warning signs a possibility. I wouldn't query them in places like London that has used CCTV for years but this system has only been approved for 6 weeks, there has to be an onus on the authority to advertise and promote the use of cameras in enforcement, else system is simply for enforcement and revenue not prevention and control as it should be... but I'd hate to rely on that alone.

There is a de-minimus argument, stopped for a short space of time while a passenger boarded... trouble is loading bags into boot makes time excessive but depending on mood of adjudicator could bare fruit..could not.

Certainly with a brand new system there is possibly teething problems which it would be good to find..... google Chester news/local papers..see if any stories hve made the news, may give clues what to look for.

Also good chance that a brand new Traffic Order will have holes in it, if they've created a new order. And if they haven't Bama's thought on existing orders may be relevant (often worth following thoughts from him)

And there should be an order allowing CCTV enforcement... not sure what that would come under..help please guys ???

It will have to be a technical challenge IMO given circumstances but don't go panicking and paying before the 21 days are up....you've got till 1st Feb to challenge or pay at discount, lets see what else we can get.

As a minimum, send an email to chester today requesting a copy of the video, all relevant Traffic orders and schedules and relevant order and authotity for the use of CCTV approved devices. "So you can consider the worth or otherwise of the alleged contravention"
Matt_5805
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 - 22:35) *
PCN looks compliant.
Unlikely to be a boarding alighting exemption in a taxi bay but don't discount it....silly thing is if you'd gone past and the missus had got in on the double yellows by the island they probably couldn't have touched you..worth bearing in mind for future, don't help now.

Bay looks okay without putting a tape rule on the dimensions..if you can do so.

Lack of CCTV warning signs a possibility. I wouldn't query them in places like London that has used CCTV for years but this system has only been approved for 6 weeks, there has to be an onus on the authority to advertise and promote the use of cameras in enforcement, else system is simply for enforcement and revenue not prevention and control as it should be... but I'd hate to rely on that alone.

There is a de-minimus argument, stopped for a short space of time while a passenger boarded... trouble is loading bags into boot makes time excessive but depending on mood of adjudicator could bare fruit..could not.

Certainly with a brand new system there is possibly teething problems which it would be good to find..... google Chester news/local papers..see if any stories hve made the news, may give clues what to look for.

Also good chance that a brand new Traffic Order will have holes in it, if they've created a new order. And if they haven't Bama's thought on existing orders may be relevant (often worth following thoughts from him)

And there should be an order allowing CCTV enforcement... not sure what that would come under..help please guys ???

It will have to be a technical challenge IMO given circumstances but don't go panicking and paying before the 21 days are up....you've got till 1st Feb to challenge or pay at discount, lets see what else we can get.

As a minimum, send an email to chester today requesting a copy of the video, all relevant Traffic orders and schedules and relevant order and authotity for the use of CCTV approved devices. "So you can consider the worth or otherwise of the alleged contravention"

Thanks for taking the time to write all that. You've given me a few areas to consider further which is appreciated and i'll give it more time this weekend.

Thanks again
bama
I am sure there was mention of dodgy TROs for Chester.
IIRC I read them and they were pretty bad.

get the current TRO asap
kdow
Hi Matt_5805,

I'm trying to gather together examples like your for an article I'm writing about how councils are doing more and more of this kind of thing. Can you get in touch?

kevin.dowling@sunday-times.co.uk
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