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ade146
Would recent weather be a valid reason for NIP arriving outside 14 day window.

Contravene Red Traffic Light
ade146
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2010
Date of the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 22 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Rockhill Road,Pontymoile South Bound Junction
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - A pedal cyclist moving at a fastish speed jumped off the pavement into the road just as I approached lights. As I was trying to avoid cyclist Camera flashed. It is a three lane junction with lights changing at different times. My car was in the middle of two lanes and it is possible as I was filtering left that I triggered the centre lane camera

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The first NIP to the Registered Keeper must arrive within 14 days unless there is a valid reason why that was not possible, for example a recent change of details.

    This link will take you to the advice provided by the RAC's legal team.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 19:51:37 +0000
Ocelot
Yes it would. Have you been the RK of the vehicle at the current address for a while?
Gan
Evidence of postal delays by bad weather adds to your credibility if you are claiming late service of the NIP.

I don't think the police can use it as an excuse.

If you send the RAC letter they may try it on that the NIP is valid because it was SENT in good time. The Gidden case, as far as I know, is quite clear that it is the ARRIVAL that counts.

Keep the envelope it arrived in and evidence of any other post that was delayed at the time. Newspaper reports of the situation would be good examples to show that the normal two day delivery couldn't be relied upon.

Make sure you clearly name yourself. Staple any letter to the form. Take copies and send it by special or recorded delivery.

The 28 day clock for you to reply started ticking, in theory, from when you actually received the NIP. In your case I suggest returning the reply closer to the expected date to prevent any risk of them raising the stakes with an S172 charge.
peterguk
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Fri, 31 Dec 2010 - 20:53) *
Yes it would.


Ahem.....

Not since October 2009 rolleyes.gif

Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin) (29 October 2009
ade146
Thanks for quick replies. Yes I have been the RK at the correct address for some years. I will check that link in the morning. I notice that the NIP was not registered or anything so no one would know when it arrived.

What is stopping me from adding another two weeks. I therefore guess that the 14 day rule cant be a factor in most cases. The feds would just send them registered if so.
peterguk
QUOTE (ade146 @ Fri, 31 Dec 2010 - 23:15) *
I notice that the NIP was not registered or anything so no one would know when it arrived.


If posted 1st class, there is a rebuttable presumption of delivery 2 business days following posting. It is for you to rebutt this presumption in court. If the Mags. believe you, home and dry. (Do not expect an easy ride in court. I had my postman as a witness and lost in Mags and Crown Court. Had to go to the High Court before i won my case!)

QUOTE (ade146 @ Fri, 31 Dec 2010 - 23:15) *
What is stopping me from adding another two weeks.


Threat of likelyhood of prison if caught enough for you?
ade146
So In my case they will assume that the NIP arrived 9 days after the offence. The actual arrival time is irrelevant. I cant imagine me taking it to the high court due to finances. There was no postmark on the letter. Just before Christmas most of South Wales was snowed in so even though it was processed in a week they probably didnt get around to sending it.

After all, from the link above it appears that they dont need to. I know someone personally who has not responded to two of these and not heard anything more. Have they tightened up on this scenario ?

The other thing is I think I triggered the camera for the lane I wasnt supposed to be in. Without the evidence it is hard for me to know. There is induction loops for these arent there? There is a radar in the device but assume it is just for measuring speed.

Ade
BaggieBoy
So this is a redlight offence?

Ignoring it is likely to see you getting 6 points and a large fine.
Gan
If you play any of the games you've suggested so far, you are going to grab defeat from out of the jaws of victory.

The postmark IS on the envelope. If it's not an obvious date, it will be a set of machine readable dots and stripes.

If you try to follow the example of your acquaintance you are lining yourself up for a £500 fine, 6 points and a massive increase in insurance premiums from the few companies that will touch you afterward - all for a minor traffic light offence.

If you delay your reply for the full 28 days that you are allowed, it will appear late to the police and you risk an S172 charge. You do of course have the late NIP as your defence but the job becomes many times more difficult. You are after all facing a much more serious offence where you have more incentive to lie.

You have a valid late NIP defence to the original charge. If you return the form in good time along with the RAC letter you have complied with your legal obligations and sent a clear message that you are well aware of your legal rights.

The High Court will never enter into your case. It's already decided the matter and your only task if the case isn't dropped is to convince the magistrates that there were postal delays. If they live in the area they should already be aware of them.
ade146
Once again many thanks for the people who give their own time to post information for the likes of myself.

I want to wriggle out of it as in my eyes I am not guilty. Even when it happened I could not understand why the camera went off. I assumed the cyclist in front must have set it off.

The postmark. There is no conventional postmark. There are a row of orange dots. If I take this to the post office will they tell me the post date. I dont think they are open today but I will check with them as to how I can read it.

I need to reply within 28 days from assumed delivery to avoid s172.

To add to the wizard. The letter was sent First Class.

Looking at my waffling, in case I havent been clear about the offence. Contravene Red Traffic Light at 23mph.
Gan
If the NIP did not arrive in time you are Not Guilty.

No point putting much effort into the postmark. It's a diversion and only has any value if it's week later than the claimed date on the form.

As you seem to understand by now, get your reply returned before 28 days from the ASSUMED delivery. As per advice in previous post -staple the RAC letter to it. Return it by recorded delivery and keep copies.

The police will respond in one of three ways although they may send a holding reply while they "consider" your case :

1 Accept that the NIP was late and close the matter
2 Accept that the NIP was late but claim that they posted it in time. Present the Gidden judgement in court and their case collapses.
3 Dispute or make no comment on the late arrival and send you a COFP. We can deal with that later if it arises.

peterguk
QUOTE (Gan @ Sat, 1 Jan 2011 - 13:43) *
Present the Gidden judgement in court and their case collapses.


As much as my Judgement may have been a landmark case, unfortunately it has yet to cause the instant collapse of prosecutions just by being slapped on the desk. If only.....

The OP will still have to convince the court of the facts, namely explain why his NIP took 15 days to arrive in excess of 2 weeks is a lot more than a few days.. Like i said, having been there and done it, (with my postman), not an easy task.

Does the OP have any witnesses to the late arrival of the NIP? Were postal services suspended in OP's area?
ade146
Peterguk seems to be talking sense. I am telling the truth about the arrival time of NIP. Going on my past experience with the establishment the truth matters little. Or even guilt of offence in most cases. My mum who is about 75 picked up the letter. Cant imagine dragging her to court. I wouldnt imagine the postman would be too happy either. That leaves my word against the establishment.

I have an extremely responsible job in the travel industry, even so In the past I have represented myself against lying policemen. I was severely punished for telling the truth.

I will try that RAC letter along with returning the s172 and see what happens. I am also wondering if I should add in the letter I was filtering to right but probably triggered the centre lane device. Im not sure if they look at the photos or just issue these NIP willy nilly.

Again thankyou all for responding and am quite willing to listen to any added advice.
peterguk
QUOTE (ade146 @ Sat, 1 Jan 2011 - 16:12) *
I am also wondering if I should add in the letter I was filtering to right but probably triggered the centre lane device. Im not sure if they look at the photos or just issue these NIP willy nilly.


Although not entitiled to see any evidence until a formal not guilty plea is entered, you can write and request photos "to assist in identification of the driver". Do not mention "proof" or "evidence". In most cases they will oblige and send them. Then wash personal details and post up here for others to opinion on.

Remember, whether the photos arrive or not, you still need to return the S.172 within 28 days of receipt.
ade146
OK I am with you on the s172. That gives me around another two weeks before 28 days of assumed delivery.

The safety camera partnership has a website with a contact email for queries. They are saying that due to a huge backlog of requests there may be a delay in response. I will try to get some photos.

I had a quick look around the net for evidence of the snow disruption. The snow started on or around the 17th Dec. Sadly the day after my NIP issue. A day later and they wouldnt have had any staff for a week.

Quote from royal mail on the 22nd
Tony Baxter, Royal Mail Operations Director for Wales, said: "We apologise to those customers who are experiencing delays to their deliveries as a result of the severe weather.

That was five days after the major snowfall. Is it likely to be relevant really? The NIP was processed on the computer on day 7. The next day was the big fall so it probably sat around somewhere. I can try to put that in the letter.
jobo
yes its very relivant, if you can get it in the letter do so, but i suspect youl need it for court, so print it out and keep hold of it
Ocelot
QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 31 Dec 2010 - 21:49) *
QUOTE (Ocelot @ Fri, 31 Dec 2010 - 20:53) *
Yes it would.


Ahem.....

Not since October 2009 rolleyes.gif

Gidden v Chief Constable of Humberside [2009] EWHC 2924 (Admin) (29 October 2009


What I meant was it would be a valid reason to dispute the NIP as it had arrived late, but I see what it must have read like. Blame it on the 'flu.
ade146
Thanks guys

I did misunderstand Ocelots post. I thought you were trying to say no chance. I read the Gidden notes and it seemed to indicate that assumed delivery is two days after processing. It is then up to me to prove I didnt get it within 14 days. It wouldnt be a problem demonstrating the weather as it is still logged on most news pages.

I still havent written the letter as it is BH today so it wouldnt have gone anywhere
peterguk
QUOTE (ade146 @ Mon, 3 Jan 2011 - 10:38) *
I read the Gidden notes and it seemed to indicate that assumed delivery is two days after processing.


Almost correct. After sending.

QUOTE (ade146 @ Mon, 3 Jan 2011 - 10:38) *
It is then up to me to prove I didnt get it within 14 days.


Correct.
jobo
no its up to you to provieded credable evidence that you didnt recieve it in time, you cant ultimatly prove beyond reasonable doubt you didnt recieve it( unless you have an independent wttness , as peter did) so you need to prove it on the balance of proberbilities,,, which is a lot lot lower standard and a lot easier to do

ie given the circumstances outlined and your evidence, do they believe your account
Ocelot
QUOTE (ade146 @ Mon, 3 Jan 2011 - 10:38) *
Thanks guys

I did misunderstand Ocelots post. I thought you were trying to say no chance. I read the Gidden notes and it seemed to indicate that assumed delivery is two days after processing. It is then up to me to prove I didnt get it within 14 days. It wouldnt be a problem demonstrating the weather as it is still logged on most news pages.

I still havent written the letter as it is BH today so it wouldnt have gone anywhere


Sorry, my post was clumsily expressed.
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (ade146 @ Mon, 3 Jan 2011 - 10:38) *
I read the Gidden notes and it seemed to indicate that assumed delivery is two days after processing. It is then up to me to prove I didnt get it within 14 days.
As well as this, the central point about Gidden was that the notice has to be served within 14 days regardless of circumstances. The prosecution in Gidden weren't contesting that it had arrived after 14 days, but claimed that because it wasn't their fault (postal strike) that didn't matter. The High Court disagreed.

This is important if they come back to you claiming that delays due to snow don't invalidate the NIP.

ade146
I wanted to bump this as I get annoyed when people post on forums and do not give any feedback. I have sent the RAC letter plus covering letter to the SCP.

I have now received a letter from them telling me they are looking into it. I now have fingers crossed that I will not hear any more. I will post back if I do.

Thanks to all who spend their spare time giving out advice
The Rookie
Just to be clear that you do complete a responce that satisfied the S172 request to provide details of the driver?

Simon
ade146
Yes I filled in the S172 naming myself as the driver. I downloaded and modified the RAC letter coupled with a cover letter from myself.
ade146
OK people I have indeed received an NIP for this offence.
As far as they are concerned the NIP was posted 7 days after the offence. The wording says that the notice was served within 14 days. Which of course it wasnt. It looks like I will have to drag my 70yr old mum to court as a witness. She collected the post from the door.

If I can scan the photos I will attempt to post them on here. Apart from the NIP arriving late prob due to the weather before Christmas I didnt really commit the offence. The photo shows the left filter on green. I did actually turn left in compliance with the lights. The problem is the photo shows my car in the centre lane.

The defence could be that my car is closer to nearside lane, the angle of the car is starting to close (but not much in one second) with the nearside lane. It looks to me as if my left indicator is on, including side repeater. turning left at that junction is consistent with where I live.
The speed of the car is 23 mph again consistent with making a left turn and not about to cross a junction to accelerate up a slip road to a dual carriageway.
I was avoiding 2 cyclists at the time which I put in my original letter. Only one can be seen in the photo and he is well ahead of me. Although he should have been as I tried to give give him plenty of space.
The photos are consistent with my letter written to the camera partnership, before I had even seen the evidence.

What is my best defence? The fact I turned left on green from the centre lane, or that the NIP didnt arrive within 14 days?

Regards
Gan
What possessed you to write an idiotic letter like that ?

You were told exactly what to do - name yourself, return the form within the required deadline and attach the RAC letter. You don't EVER tell the police anything more than you are legally obliged.

There's a good reason for a 14 day time limit for the arrival of a NIP - before the driver can forget the incident. You've just informed them that you remember every detail.

The late arrival of the NIP might still be a viable defence but you've made it much more difficult.

Logician
I think you need to run both. In relation to the offence, it seems that you crossed the middle lane stop line while the lights were red against you. To filter left you should have been in the nearside lane. It may be thought that you should have been in the nearside lane, and waited while the cyclists went ahead, but instead went into the middle lane to get round them, and then ran the red light. You could also, on finding yourself in the middle lane facing a red light, have waited for the green before pulling over to the left. A sympathetic bench might find some mitigation or even special reasons not to endorse, but I certainly would not count on it.

For that reason, although there are arguments against going for two defences and possible confusing the court, I think you need to run the late NIP as well, even if your mother has to come to court. I would start with that, and then go on to the actual offence. The bench may feel better about "letting you off on a technicality" if they think the actual offence was not so bad or there is a viable defence to it.
ade146
The main point of my original letter to the Camera partnership was regarding the late delivery of the NIP. I also outlined what had happened as I couldnt understand why the camera had triggered. Clearly I was hoping the camera partnership would not send out the NIP. Having spoken to a few locals, everyone I spoke to that had written a letter of mitigation had not been prosecuted. Without causing an argument I dont think that outlining my version of events in a letter would compromise my defence regarding late delivery. They will either believe me about late delivery or they wont.
The photos I have are black and white. I assume they have colour?
I could have stopped and moved over when on green. As I approached the junction with two fast moving erratic cyclists I was really only looking at the left filter as that is where I was going.
Logician, I was thinking along the same lines. I hope the Mags are only human.
ade146
Just to be clear it is a COFP that I have received. I assume I do not respond to this and go to court?

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...011448&z=17

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51.69793,...=12,105.61,,0,5

Link for the junction. I was travelling east on Clarence rd turning north on to Rockhill rd. Straight on is not really straight on, as there is a kink to the right. My car is not at the correct angle to do that. And I would have had to overtake the cyclist to boot. I guess its down to how the mags are on the day. Cheeses me off, Ive just had my motorbike stolen and the cops havent even phoned me with a crime number.
big_mac
Does it matter what lane you turn from? Aren't arrow lane markings advisory?

You can cross the stop line on red in order to proceed in the direction indicated by the green arrow - and this is what happened.
ade146
Well I used to be of the same opinion as big mac. It bit me in the ass this time though.
The Rookie
Have they ssent both pics or just one of the pair, I would think the second would show you starting to turn left.

Simon

ade146
They sent the pair. Dont forget its a second apart. The angle has closed to the near side slightly but it is not convincing. Everyone who has seen the photo has said it looks like I am going straight on. Its only when I cast doubt that they start to look harder.

If you have any tips on how I can post the scan I will do so. It would be good to get some feedback. I must have really squared the corner off . Perhaps I watched the cyclist for too long, I dont remember being that far in the centre of the road either. Couldnt believe it myself when I saw the photos. Never the less I did turn left on green.

Thanks for taking the time to read my posts
jobo
read the cuningly named frequently ask questions for how to post
ade146
I did just that and after wrestling my disobedient scanner to the ground, I have hopefully sorted it.


Hope that works

Map


http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...mp;t=h&z=19
jobo
Though you were posting the pictures ?

im not convinced you have a defence, im not saying you dont, just shooting the breeze to clarify the point

if the situation was reversed and you had gone straight on in the left lane against the light then that would have been an offence, thats aside from the fact that the picies dont give the slightest indecation you were intending to turn right
Logician
With no sign of the cyclists, there is no reason apparent why you should not be in the LH lane in order to turn left, unfortunately.
peterguk
To add to J's and L's posts... If you had been turning left, and overtaking cyclists, surely you would be straddling L1 and L2. It is unusual to move into the next lane entirely. Now, it's quite possible the invisible cyclist was drunk as a skunk and weaving all over the lane, but the only evidence that exists (except your version of events) are the photos.

Mags. are going to take some major persuading...
ade146
Cant disagree with any of the above.

There were two cyclists, one can be seen in front of the car in both pics. He had just jumped off the pavement, veered into the middle lane and carried straight on against the lights. The other is still on the pavement and about to jump into the road. He isnt in the photo. My indicator is on to turn left. The angle of the car is not correct to go straight on as the road isnt really straight. To go straight on and overtake a cyclist in the middle ish of the road the angle of the car would have to be a lot different. They are the facts. How they are interpreted is another matter.

Oddly enough this was all caused by me thinking they look ****** and giving them way too much room. I dont normally drive like that. I would have normally have been going faster and gone up the inside. I was afraid they were going to cut too the left as well. I didnt think the guy in front was going to go through a red either.

Whatever the interpretation of the photos doesnt alter the fact that the NIP was delivered late.
jobo
your pices have gone, or id have another look for the cyclist
big_mac
QUOTE (ade146 @ Mon, 21 Feb 2011 - 00:48) *
Whatever the interpretation of the photos doesnt alter the fact that the NIP was delivered late.

No, but that's going to be a hard thing to prove.
The photos don't look great either, and I can't see the cyclist in the distance being taken into account.
But, the indicator may give you some hope - and it's so far into red that you obviously didn't just try to 'jump' the light.

I doubt they will offer a fixed penalty, but I guess you can just wait and see.
CuriousOrange
QUOTE (Gan @ Sat, 19 Feb 2011 - 11:50) *
There's a good reason for a 14 day time limit for the arrival of a NIP - before the driver can forget the incident. You've just informed them that you remember every detail. The late arrival of the NIP might still be a viable defence but you've made it much more difficult.
Although that's (sort of) the reason for the 14-day rule, in any case whether the accused remembers the event or not has absolutely no bearing on whether the 14-day rule applies.




If a NIP arrives on the 15th day when it should have arrived before, then the accused can stand up in court and say 'yes, I remember everything' and it still wouldn't have been served in time.

Same as if it arrives within 14 days, the accused can protest till they're blue in the face that they don't remember the incident alleged and it still wouldn't give them a defence.

The Rookie
I'm with CO on this, the 14day NIP requiremnet is sacrosanct andd you ARE not guilty because of it, the poor weather and known delivery issues all over the country combined with credable verbal evidence will see you aquitted, only if they don't find you credable can they convict.

Simon
Gan
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Mon, 21 Feb 2011 - 09:16) *
QUOTE (Gan @ Sat, 19 Feb 2011 - 11:50) *
There's a good reason for a 14 day time limit for the arrival of a NIP - before the driver can forget the incident. You've just informed them that you remember every detail. The late arrival of the NIP might still be a viable defence but you've made it much more difficult.
Although that's (sort of) the reason for the 14-day rule, in any case whether the accused remembers the event or not has absolutely no bearing on whether the 14-day rule applies.




If a NIP arrives on the 15th day when it should have arrived before, then the accused can stand up in court and say 'yes, I remember everything' and it still wouldn't have been served in time.

Same as if it arrives within 14 days, the accused can protest till they're blue in the face that they don't remember the incident alleged and it still wouldn't give them a defence.



Mrs Gan decided to retire at short notice and has found that the opportunity to "spend more time with her grandchildren" is not the life-time of fun that she expected.

My apologies to the OP : a couple of the sentiments in my previous post were really aimed at my daughter who has just arrived yet again.
ade146
Just before the lights is a long line of parked cars which I have photos of. There is still plenty of time to join the nearside lane but it all adds up to why I might not have been in the correct lane. I dont really know whyI was so far into the centre lane.

Thanks for taking the time to have a look everyone.
The Rookie
What lane you were in is irrelevant, you were not NIP'd!

Simon
CuriousOrange
Unless you've took the photo while driving along, all you have is a photo of some parked cars at some point in time.

On StreetView it's double-yellows along there; oddly it's not Rockhill Road but Clarence Road, as far as I can tell.

Although it's worth exploring other defences given that you've no guarantee they'll accept that you received the NIP outside the 14 days, you have the problem that your account isn't very convincing when coupled with the photos. If the magistrates decide that you're feeding them bull on this part, they may be less likely to believe you on the 14-day part.

You might have to make the decision as whether to nail all your colours to the 14-day mast and hope.
ade146
Well if I cant convince you lot there probably isnt much hope.
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