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loshlesab
Guys,

I was on the way home from the City last week and there was a lot of traffic so I decided to go through the back streets. The whole area in NW1 has changed and it seems from the PCN I got that I did a illegal left turn.

To be honest I do not remember seeing a sign that there is no left turn but it is possible that I didnt see it.

See PCN attached.

Any advice if there are any grounds for appeal?

I once read on these forums that if it doesnt say the Juction/name of crossroads the PCN is invalid. is that correct?

Thanks to anyone who can help!!

Regards,

Loshlesab
dave-o
Take a look on Google Street View and check whether there is (was) a sign.
Earl Purple
You have blanked out the location so I can't see what it says but it appears from the pictures you are somewhere close to St Pancras International station and turned presumably out of Wellers Court into Pancras Road towards Euston Road, a direction reserved only for buses and taxis. Google streetview does not show Wellers Court so I can't see what signs there were there.

In order for a turn to be banned there must be a traffic order in place banning the turn.
loshlesab
Picture from Streetview attached.

This might be a dated picture though.

Thanks.
Earl Purple
I was partially right in the location in that it is near St Pancras International and that it was Pancras Road southbound you were turning into. There is a no-left-turn sign on the traffic light with an exemption statement. The entrance itself also has a no-motor-vehicles sign also wtih the exemption. Such signage would be invisible from Goods Way (and is from Camley Street too, it would appear) so they put in also a no-left-turn sign.

This location has created issues before on here.

It would be interesting to know fi there is a specific traffic order for the left turn rather than the vehicle class restriction on the target road, and whether the latter alone would be enough if the no-left-turn sign were simply there to enforce it or whether the no-left-turn requires its own traffic order. (The legal people on here might answer that).

Also whether one sign on the traffic light is enough (could easily be obscured by the vehicle in front) or whether better signage is required.

(For future reference your correct route is to continue ahead then make the left into Midland Road then right to get back to Euston Road).
loshlesab
Earl Purple,

Thanks.

I was on Goodsway with Camley Street on my right and Pancras Road on my left.
loshlesab
Guys,

Anyone else who can help me?

I really don't want to pay this fine!

Thanks.

L
dave-o
As suggested, you could get hold of the traffic order and look for anomalies.
loshlesab
Thanks.

Where would i get hold of that?

dave-o
Usually at the town hall.
bama
at "the principle offices" of the council - it may not be the Town Hall.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/schedule/2/made


plus see
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?...filesize=119808

lots of posts by me on this subject. use site search to dig them out.
loshlesab
I have spoken to Camden Council today.

The chap said that the traffic order has been approved and i asked him to fax it to me. Still waiting.
bama
"approved" ? ?

they get "made" - placed under the seal of the council

"approved" doesn't mean it has been made.

of course he may just be clueless.

keep at them
dave-o
QUOTE (loshlesab @ Tue, 14 Dec 2010 - 22:55) *
The chap said that the traffic order has been approved and i asked him to fax it to me. Still waiting.



Did you take his name and title and audibly state the date and time?
loshlesab
I chased him again today but he isnt in the office!

I will chase tomorrow again.

Thanks for your help.
dave-o
QUOTE (loshlesab @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:08) *
I chased him again today but he isnt in the office!

I will chase tomorrow again.



Welcome to the crazy world of trying to get a straight answer out of council parking enforcement by phone!

See you back here in a few days when you realise you have just been fobbed off.
DancingDad
Camden comingle the payment and reps periods into one...should be two different ones.
loshlesab
What do you suggest me doing?

How about the fact that is doesn’t say on the PCN what the exact location was where i did the prohibited left turn? I seem to remember that it need to say what the crossroads are.
dave-o
QUOTE (loshlesab @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:14) *
What do you suggest me doing?
it need to say what the crossroads are.



Finding out where TROs are kept, go there in person and take a copy. Like nuking them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
loshlesab
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:14) *
Camden comingle the payment and reps periods into one...should be two different ones.


can you elaborate please?

QUOTE (dave-o @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:18) *
QUOTE (loshlesab @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:14) *
What do you suggest me doing?
it need to say what the crossroads are.



Finding out where TROs are kept, go there in person and take a copy. Like nuking them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.


I was meant to write the following but half of it got lost.



How about the fact that is doesn’t say on the PCN what the exact location was where i did the prohibited left turn? I seem to remember that it need to say what the crossroads are.
dave-o
QUOTE (loshlesab @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:21) *
How about the fact that is doesn’t say on the PCN what the exact location was where i did the prohibited left turn? I seem to remember that it need to say what the crossroads are.


Possibly, if the road stated is long, and there are other junctions.
loshlesab
QUOTE (dave-o @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:25) *
QUOTE (loshlesab @ Wed, 15 Dec 2010 - 11:21) *
How about the fact that is doesn’t say on the PCN what the exact location was where i did the prohibited left turn? I seem to remember that it need to say what the crossroads are.


Possibly, if the road stated is long, and there are other junctions.


See attached for location.

Any chance?

cream70
Did the OP manage to obtain a traffic order for that location?

QUOTE
A local authority may have to refund tens of thousands of pounds after 50 motorists a day were fined for making a wrong turn - even though a road sign instructed them to do so.

Camden council admits 1,414 drivers could have been wrongly given penalty notices for making a right-hand turn towards Midland Road at King's Cross, just as a diversion sign indicated.

The motorists were filmed by a CCTV car parked near the turning in Camley Street during a four-week period in October and November last year during which the sign was in place. They were issued with fines through the post.

Locksmith Laurence Wynter, 45, won an appeal against his fine after he returned to the site next to St Pancras station and took photographs.

He said: "I am livid because I have spent a lot of time defending myself. I have had to go back to the site myself to get evidence, which most people wouldn't have done.

"I wanted the council at least to pay me back what it cost me to park when I went back to the junction, but they point-blank refused. The council should let off all the other people who have been caught."

Camden council claims the diversion sign had been tampered with and denied the CCTV car was purposefully trying to catch out motorists. A spokesman said: "As roadworks were undertaken at Pancras Way, diversion signs were erected to ensure that motorists followed the correct road layout.

"After a penalty charge notice was issued to a motorist it was reported to the council that signage may have been in place that directed motorists incorrectly. After visiting the site, officers from the council found that a temporary sign had been tampered with.

"As other signage showing the correct diversion route was in place a decision was taken to remove the temporary sign that had been tampered with.

"Where representations have been made to the council we have considered appeals, dealing with each one on a case-by-case basis and cancelling where appropriate."


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