Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Asbo - warning letter incoming
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
jaggedx
Just had the local BiBs around second time in 2 weeks.

Same main Bib - this time issuing an ASBO for driving dangerously.

Same incident cited as 2 weeks ago. (chased up the following morning for incident number)
Charges gone.
officer had to call me to tell me. came out with some excuse about thinking not having been NIP'd first but "too late" to call to clarify now no charge.

Based on 2 "bus drivers" driving in same car alleging i drove dangerously. Plod made his "synopsis" of these witness statments nearly a full month after incident.

some details.

these bus drivers - took mobile pictures of myself while i was driving on left hand lane, while they were on right side.
(which at the time i thought if they were stupid enough to complain the police would have charged them for Dangerous Driving)

no accident or failure to stop occurred.

now it seems this individual policeman and his partner (stood there saying nothing) have decided to get myself and my car marked for "routine checks".

clean license
never stopped
immediately informed solicitor of events (advised to let it alone since no charges) (informing 1st thing tomorrow again of new development)
car newish - recent MOT
driver as job

no previous of any sort. criminal/civil/motoring etc.

in my thirties with a young family - now extremely concerned by the attentions of the local Bibs (since i chased up 1st alleged incident)
reading all the stories of how in Scotland, this is target police work for young drivers.

constantly drive everyday - now feeling extremely vulnerable.

thanks for any advice.
hoping my solicitor will do something this time.

cheers
j

Logician
Something has gone wrong, try again.
Logician
The police cannot issue an ASBO, they have to apply to a court to issue it. An ASBO for dangerous driving is quite absurd and I trust they would be laughed out of court if they tried that.
jaggedx
thanks for the quick reply logician

the non-emergency line would not give me the details past incident number - just letter for asbo warning.

very concerned that local bib now to make life hell.

looking at michael lyon's motoring offences website.

cheers
j
peterguk
Sure it's not a S.59?
jobo
Scotland peter, same thing different name
peterguk
QUOTE (jobo @ Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 23:55) *
Scotland peter, same thing different name


OK, thanks icon_redface.gif

But S.59 doesn't need court involvemnet in UK does it?
jaggedx
yes i think could be it.

which has me feeling vunerable since never got nipped.

until get proper legal advice - feel personally like this bib going out of his way to harass. (dont know the guy, never in any trouble. stay off the radar - until now)
Logician
No, it doesn't. An iniquitous power, in my view.
peterguk
QUOTE (jaggedx @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 00:00) *
yes i think could be it.

which has me feeling vunerable since never got nipped.

until get proper legal advice - feel personally like this bib going out of his way to harass. (dont know the guy, never in any trouble. stay off the radar - until now)


Don't know about Scotland, but no NIP necessary for S.59 in England, sdince there is no prosecution.
jaggedx
but the police have to actually witness the event?

no accident - nothing happened.

just 2 witnesses in of same vehicle (who out to cause mayhem i guess, i just left down to experience then all this occurs)

ty anyhows.

very informative reading on this site.
jobo
it isnt strictly true to say the copper have to witness the event, however it is true to say they can only issue one when they have belief that your driving was dad enough to warrant one and its hard to see how they can do that with just two random motorists to say so,

id be sending a letter of complaint to the CC, pointing out it was issued outside the requirements of law( probably )
jaggedx
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=52154

some good info on there that i found.

looks like im bad position due to this particular Bib and 2 drivers.

from the article
...
The Law Society of Scotland was more helpful and suggested the term ASBO was misleading - the police were, in effect, using powers under the Anti-social Behaviour, etc (Scotland) Act 2004, which allow the police to deal with the anti-social use of motor vehicles either on public roads or off road. I was told: "In the first instance, police are required to warn the person and when a warning has already been issued the police then have the power to stop and to seize and remove the vehicle."

The measure was introduced by the parliament in 2005 and, while police must have reasonable grounds that either careless and inconsiderate driving and/or illegal off-road driving has occurred, they must also have reasonable grounds for believing the vehicle is or has been used in a manner causing, or likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public - ie there has to be an anti-social element to the circumstances.

The measure, I was assured, wasn't designed to be an alternative to criminal road traffic offences such as speeding or careless driving, but was created ostensibly to counter the archetypal "boy racer". Ken Dale-Risk, a lecturer in Criminal Law and Human Rights at Napier University Centre for Law, says ASBOs and on-the-spot-fines are "an increasing part of the Scottish legal landscape", but motoring ASBOs are quite unusual: "The impression I form is that there is a drift towards summary justice, which has a lower burden of proof - the balance of probability as opposed to beyond reasonable doubt. However, I am somewhat surprised to see ASBO legislation being applied to standard road traffic violations. There may well be a human rights element to this 'shortcut to justice', where, if the police consider 'anti-social driving' is continuing, there is a danger of the vehicle being impounded. Access to due process is denied and the consequences are disproportionate to the conduct."

...

Pete D
There is rarely smoke without fire. What on earth were you doing that got the two witnesses attention. Pete D
jaggedx
they seemed to be rather annoyed that they did not manage to run me in to an incoming vehicle whilst eventually overtaking them.
(they speeding up and slowing down when overtaking them on an adjoining road)

realized myself that things were going wrong fast when they were trying to maneuver me into parking areas by coming up on my right side on a dual carriage. (no way in hell i was stopping to get myself road raged by these 2 witnesses)

Mrs, advised me to make complaint but naively thought it was wasting police time - since it was my word against theirs.

now it seems they have the local constabulary making me out to be boy racer.
captain swoop
WHy not give us the full story of what happened using full sentances?

It's hard to follow yourposts.
jaggedx
aye sorry about the disjointed follow on post.

however, i choose no comment after confirming my vehicle details - hence i am still a bit apprehensive of disclosure on internet.

anyhows - got a call from Micheal Llyon solicitors, since charge of dangerous driving, been disappeared by the Bib, then its now a civil matter. ie. asbo.

tomorrow may bring the actual letter.

Contacted own solicitor about the event of yesterday - i.e. them returning using the previous visits' details to issue this warning letter.

Spoke to my work about it - and how the Bib asked me not to inform them of his charge on the previous visit.

Found so far to be open about the situation with my boss to be at least one less thing to worry about.

However the initial visit when charged, then not charged 1 day afterwards - is now looking suspicious. Hopefully something can be done about the incredibly bad logic and judgment of this even resulting in a visit to my home in the first place.

Possibly looking at the legality of using out of date, non NIP, no solicitor interview, charged without arrest. evidence to be of extremely poor quality, and possibly non submittable due to the witnesses incriminating themselves in the process.

Just Scots Law is a complete nightmare, and misuse of Police powers was until now not something of my concern.

Really slapped me on my face this time.

Found only way to get to sleep last night was decide to fight this if possible.

Personally did not want this situation to become a drama but with this particular approach used by this Bib towards myself for no reason. Left feeling vunerable and majorly P'sd O'd.

pardon my french.

cheers
j
Will update when know more.


peterguk
QUOTE (jaggedx @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 16:24) *
Possibly looking at the legality of using out of date, non NIP, no solicitor interview, charged without arrest. evidence to be of extremely poor quality, and possibly non submittable due to the witnesses incriminating themselves in the process.


Interview? You've not mentioned that before....

Didn't think solicitor had to be present in Scotland (wasn't it in the news recently)..
jobo
no mate i wouldnt go it the mechanics of the event, but you could try explaining what went on afterwards to us if you want

as it is, see my post above on action re the asbo
jaggedx
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 16:41) *
QUOTE (jaggedx @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 16:24) *
Possibly looking at the legality of using out of date, non NIP, no solicitor interview, charged without arrest. evidence to be of extremely poor quality, and possibly non submittable due to the witnesses incriminating themselves in the process.


Interview? You've not mentioned that before....

Didn't think solicitor had to be present in Scotland (wasn't it in the news recently)..


aye - to be clear, no interview conducted.

just - yes driver, yes your car. then pretty much straight into charging me.

didn't give details of whom. or copy of complaint etc.

chased up the issue - as it was unclear who and what station they were from (didnt give details at all)

bib who charged phoned following day to say now no charge.

that was where i left the situation - apart from meeting solicitor and taking advice to leave it alone, if they (police) were.

QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 16:45) *
no mate i wouldnt go it the mechanics of the event, but you could try explaining what went on afterwards to us if you want

as it is, see my post above on action re the asbo



hopefully might get to relax a little tonight and take stock of events.

more i look at the situation - a lot of the entire thing looks out of requirement of the law. though will need solicitor to confirm this.

cheers for all the feedback.

j
captain swoop
Sorry, I still can't follow what's going on.
jobo
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 19:29) *
Sorry, I still can't follow what's going on.


il summarise for you

op get reported by two people he had some sort of running argument with

the police turn up at his door and tell him he will be prosecuted for it ( dangerous or careless ?)

the police then contact him and say they wont prosecute him

then turn up again a week or so later and say he is getting an asbo, the Scottish equivalent of a section 59 warning
captain swoop
QUOTE (jobo @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 20:49) *
QUOTE (captain swoop @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 19:29) *
Sorry, I still can't follow what's going on.


il summarise for you

op get reported by two people he had some sort of running argument with

the police turn up at his door and tell him he will be prosecuted for it ( dangerous or careless ?)

the police then contact him and say they wont prosecute him

then turn up again a week or so later and say he is getting an asbo, the Scottish equivalent of a section 59 warning


I thought that's what it was. thanks.
Roverboy
As i believe, a s59 (or Scottish equivalent) is on the cars VRM which means ANPR picks you up for a pull. If you are concerned at the attention this will get you and the inconvenience it will cause, if possible, I would be tempted to sell the car and replace it with another thus you personally becoming invisible to ANPR and it's attentions.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.