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Byron
NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - June 2010
Date of the NIP: - 8 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 13 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - C252 West Parade Worthing
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - It was early morning on a fairly clear road. I was speeding on Motorbike and clocked by the police traveling at 42 mph in a 30mph zone. I have no doubt that I was breaking the speed limit.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:49:51 +0000
peterguk
If you completed the S.172 and returned it within 28 days, you'll likely have received a COFP, £60 and 3 points. No need to attend court.

ETA

Offence in June? Are we missing some of the story?
Byron
In addition to the above.

I have a court date set for the 15/10/2010 and i intend to plead guilty and attend court.

I already have 3 points on my license that expire this month but as the offence occurred in June receiving 3 or more points will put me over 6 points. As I have only had my bike license (my only licence) for 1.5 years this will cause the DVLA to revoke it.

I am hoping the court will impose a short ban instead of point so that I can on biking without retaking my test. Does anyone have any advice for what i should mention in court? I have recently attended a speed awareness course for an offence 2 days prior. I also had some severe personal issues at the time but i am unsure if I should mention this to the court. My employer is writing me a letter to state that I need my bike for commuting to work and also working out of hours but this will be a long way from saying i risk losing my job.

I am considering using the motor lawyers website and getting them to help me prepare what to say in court. This will cost £245 so i am unsure if it is the right thing to do. Obviously if it works it will be more than worth the money. Does anyone has any experience with them?

Thanks
The Rookie
The courts have specific guidelines to not grant a short ban ILO 3points where the accused is seeking to avoid having their licence revoked.

I can only suggest squealing pitifully like a stuck pig really!

I'm not sure how you'll convice the court that a short ban is reasonable when you can do a CBT and be back on a 125 in pretty short order?

Simon
Byron
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 11:38) *
The courts have specific guidelines to not grant a short ban ILO 3points where the accused is seeking to avoid having their licence revoked.

I can only suggest squealing pitifully like a stuck pig really!

I'm not sure how you'll convice the court that a short ban is reasonable when you can do a CBT and be back on a 125 in pretty short order?

Simon


Hi Simon,

That's pretty bad news. Buying a new motorbike that I can ride on a CBT would not really be an option financially but I doubt that will make much different to the courts. It seems I have little hope of keep my licence.

Has anyone had any dealling with motorlawyers.co.uk I considering their help in preparing for court but not sure if that will just add more cost and little benefit?

Cheers

Tom
peterguk
QUOTE (Byron @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 12:41) *
Has anyone had any dealling with motorlawyers.co.uk I considering their help in preparing for court but not sure if that will just add more cost and little benefit?


Well judging by their knowledge of service of NIPs, you'd be better off taking advice here and representing yourself...! ;

If you are the registered keeper of the vehicle and the ISSUE date on the Notice of Intended Prosecution is more than 14 days after the offence, then you can reject it. This only applies if it is dated more than 14 days after the alleged offence. It does not apply if it is dated within 14 days but received more than 14 days after the offence.

The requirement on the prosecution is only to prove that the original NIP was served within 14 days. It does not have to reach you within that period of time and indeed, if the prosecution can show that it was issued, it does not actually have to reach you at all.
rolleyes.gif

They sound much better working for the other side laugh.gif

http://motorlawyers.co.uk/procedure/notice...prosecution.htm
desktop_demon
My advice to the OP is: "do the defence yourself". In this case, I doubt any motoring lawyers will help more than the ad hoc advice received on this forum. I have seen the results of motoring lawyers in action. While they, no doubt, have some success stories, the case I saw was a "car crash" in itself. And the court fines/costs were merely doubled by the bill they presented to the convicted defendant.

Anyway Worthing magistrates are as good a "grumpy bench" as one could hope to find. Young drivers and riders prepare for the full wrath of Major Tubthumper-Gusset, DFC and bar..... It is rumoured that the Worthing magistrates unofficial motto is, "You all deserve a jolly good thrashing..." As Simon says the only defence they like is the defendant squealing like a stuck pig and preferably in a suit.

However if the OP's dad is a member of the local lodge then there may be some salvation .....
Byron
Thanks desktop demon, maybe motor lawyers will be of no use then. It's nice to hear that my chances or success are even more reduced because I was speeding in Worthing.

Are there any important things to point out to persuade a court to give me a ban rather than points? Will the speed awareness course work in my favour or just prove that I sped on more than one occasion? Is it worth pointing out personal issues at the time or does that just make it sound like I was not fit to ride?

Cheers
Pancras
QUOTE (Byron @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 14:35) *
Are there any important things to point out to persuade a court to give me a ban rather than points?

There are a number of issues here -

1) Magistrates have clear guidance not to disqualify in circumstances where they would normally award points simply so the driver avoids licence revocation under the new drivers regulations - so on this score, you are already swimming against the tide.

2) What argument are you going to offer in favour of a disqualification? Because the magistrates could easily turn that argument around and suggest that the exact same reasons could apply if the licence was revoked.

3) If you mention that your riding skills have improved following on from your speed awareness course, then this introduces another speeding offence which they will not otherwise be aware of.

4) The magistrates might take the view that you having to pass another driving test would not be a bad thing - how are you going to counter this position?
Byron
Thanks Pancras, these are all good points that i will need to address. Do you have any idea the standard length that a short band could be (if such a standard exists)
Byron
Would it be so bad to mention the the speed awareness as the speeding offences were so close together that could argue that my riding skills have improved and my speeding issues resolved. Surely the other speeding offence and the fact that i attended the course will be on record for them to see?
jobo
bans tend to be between 7 and 56 days, for 42 in a 30 it would be only seven days, but this is your problem, your not even at at speed that warrants a ban and you would be in a lot stronger position if you had been caught doing 60

personally i thing your only chance is if they take pity on you and decided to ditch their own guidelines other wise hot ebay for a cheep 125
Pancras
QUOTE (Byron @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 17:06) *
Thanks Pancras, these are all good points that i will need to address. Do you have any idea the standard length that a short band could be (if such a standard exists)

Difficult to say, because 42 in a 30 would never normally be in ban territory, so it would sit outside the sentencing guidelines.

Short bans are normally either 14, 21 or 28 days, but 7 days could be possible. I really don't think you will be able to convince them that they should ban you, however, I wish you good luck.
dom
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 17:24) *
bans tend to be between 7 and 56 days, for 42 in a 30 it would be only seven days, but this is your problem, your not even at at speed that warrants a ban and you would be in a lot stronger position if you had been caught doing 60

personally i thing your only chance is if they take pity on you and decided to ditch their own guidelines other wise hot ebay for a cheep 125



Random thought - can you do a Newton to argue the speed up?


Dom
Mayhem007
Couldn't you just pre-empt the courts decision, by arranging a CBT and driving for the period after the court case. Take a couple of weeks holiday.

Sign up with riding school, where you hire the bike, which I believe is only like £30 quid a lesson. You have enough experience to sail through the test.

Then you should be back on the road.
Byron
QUOTE (dom @ Sat, 6 Nov 2010 - 04:43) *
QUOTE (jobo @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 17:24) *
bans tend to be between 7 and 56 days, for 42 in a 30 it would be only seven days, but this is your problem, your not even at at speed that warrants a ban and you would be in a lot stronger position if you had been caught doing 60

personally i thing your only chance is if they take pity on you and decided to ditch their own guidelines other wise hot ebay for a cheep 125



Random thought - can you do a Newton to argue the speed up?


Dom


Thanks Dom but what is a Newton?

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sat, 6 Nov 2010 - 08:37) *
Couldn't you just pre-empt the courts decision, by arranging a CBT and driving for the period after the court case. Take a couple of weeks holiday.

Sign up with riding school, where you hire the bike, which I believe is only like £30 quid a lesson. You have enough experience to sail through the test.

Then you should be back on the road.


This is seeming like my only option, unfortunately I think I would need at least a days training to get a try a the new cone assault course in the test. I have no more holiday for this year and likely to be pretty skint after the fine so the retest would have to wait until next year. If only I had found this site before I decided to take this to court!

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sat, 6 Nov 2010 - 08:37) *
Couldn't you just pre-empt the courts decision, by arranging a CBT and driving for the period after the court case. Take a couple of weeks holiday.

Sign up with riding school, where you hire the bike, which I believe is only like £30 quid a lesson. You have enough experience to sail through the test.

Then you should be back on the road.


This is seeming like my only option, unfortunately I think I would need at least a days training to get a try a the new cone assault course in the test. I have no more holiday for this year and likely to be pretty skint after the fine so the retest would have to wait until next year. If only I had found this site before I decided to take this to court!

QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sat, 6 Nov 2010 - 08:37) *
Couldn't you just pre-empt the courts decision, by arranging a CBT and driving for the period after the court case. Take a couple of weeks holiday.

Sign up with riding school, where you hire the bike, which I believe is only like £30 quid a lesson. You have enough experience to sail through the test.

Then you should be back on the road.


This is seeming like my only option, unfortunately I think I would need at least a days training to get a try a the new cone assault course in the test. I have no more holiday for this year and likely to be pretty skint after the fine so the retest would have to wait until next year. If only I had found this site before I decided to take this to court!
Logician
QUOTE (Byron @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 17:22) *
Would it be so bad to mention the the speed awareness as the speeding offences were so close together that could argue that my riding skills have improved and my speeding issues resolved. Surely the other speeding offence and the fact that i attended the course will be on record for them to see?

No, they will have no idea you were clocked again and did a SAC. The SAC is an alternative to any other action. The court will only have access to your licence or DVLA driver record.
Byron
QUOTE (Mayhem007 @ Sat, 6 Nov 2010 - 08:37) *
Couldn't you just pre-empt the courts decision, by arranging a CBT and driving for the period after the court case. Take a couple of weeks holiday.

Sign up with riding school, where you hire the bike, which I believe is only like £30 quid a lesson. You have enough experience to sail through the test.

Then you should be back on the road.


I would need to apply for a provisional license again once my current license has been revoked (I guess I could not do this before I actually lose my full license). A provisional alone can take 3 weeks to arrive at which time I would need to book a theory test and find time for the practical refresher and tests. This would effectively be a ban of several months assuming that I was able to find the money and get time off work to do each element immediately.

Is this something the court is likely to take into account when I ask for 7-14 day ban as an alternative?

Is the fact that my previous 3 points were obtained 3 years ago on provisional license something that can work in my favour or will the court simply ignore all this?
The Rookie
You can't apply until it's revoked and this can take a while, so you'll have to have the forms filled ready to go......

How old exactly are the points, are they more than 3 years before the alleged offence date? The court have no hand in the revokation process, DVLA wll just do it 'by the book'.

Simon
Byron
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 15:00) *
You can't apply until it's revoked and this can take a while, so you'll have to have the forms filled ready to go......

How old exactly are the points, are they more than 3 years before the alleged offence date? The court have no hand in the revokation process, DVLA wll just do it 'by the book'.

Simon


Thanks Simon. My original points are 3 years old this month so as of the actual offence they would be closer to 2 and half years old so I am pretty screwed. If only I'd been going at 60mph and I might be better off!
Byron
I went to court today. They gave me 4 points and £60 fine. The reason for this is that the court did not believe i would have have my license revoked by the DVLA as my original 3 points were awarded before I passed my test and the new drivers act required 6 points in the first 2 years after passing the test. They believed I had been given incorrect information so mirrored the conditional offer sent by the police, albeit with an additional point for my insurance company to enjoy!

I asked them to double check they were correct as this is not what it says on the direct.gov website and not what I have been advised by various lawyers and this forum. I guess I will have to wait and see what the DVLA say when they return my license.

Does anyone know if the court are correct? Will my license just be returned with 7 points in total but still valid?

Thanks for all your advice, if nothing else you saved me £300 that I nearly paid to motorlawyers.com to help me prepare for court!
nemo
QUOTE (Byron @ Mon, 15 Nov 2010 - 12:24) *
Does anyone know if the court are correct?

Unfortunately, the court has given you duff information. If your points total reaches 6 or more within two years of first becoming qualified, then your licence is liable to be revoked.

It matters not if some of those points were acquired before you first passed a test.
AntonyMMM
The Direct Gov website is fairly clear on the point:

Penalty points gained before passing your driving test
Any penalty points you gain before passing your first driving test are taken into account. However, having six or more doesn’t mean your licence will be revoked straight after you pass your test.

Gaining further points after passing your test, taking your total to six or more, will mean your licence will be revoked.


By that - you will shortly receive notification that your license has been revoked (although I believe you can still drive up until that notification)
Logician
The information you were given was wrong, it is illogical that points before your test should count, but unfortunately they do. However, the court could not have given you less than three anyway, so you are no worse off.
Byron
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Mon, 15 Nov 2010 - 12:36) *
The Direct Gov website is fairly clear on the point:

Penalty points gained before passing your driving test
Any penalty points you gain before passing your first driving test are taken into account. However, having six or more doesn’t mean your licence will be revoked straight after you pass your test.

Gaining further points after passing your test, taking your total to six or more, will mean your licence will be revoked.


By that - you will shortly receive notification that your license has been revoked (although I believe you can still drive up until that notification)


So if the court gave me a judgement based on their own miss-understanding of the law will i have any chance of recourse? I went to court to plead for a ban rahter than points but they assured there were no danger of losing my licence so points would not be a problem?
nemo
QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Mon, 15 Nov 2010 - 12:36) *
By that - you will shortly receive notification that your license has been revoked (although I believe you can still drive up until that notification)

To avoid the commission of offences of driving otherwise than in accordance with a licence (albeit unknowingly), statute requires that a notice of revocation is served upon the offender. The notice must specify the date upon which the licence will be revoked, and the date of revocation must not be earlier than the date of service of the notice.


CuriousOrange
You might have (as I vaguely recall this having been claimed elsewhere here by regulars, and others will have better advice if so). But a sticky issue is that magistrates have been told in their guidelines not to give bans instead of points to avoid licence revocations.

So it's a matter of arguing that the court made a mistake and could have done something which they weren't supposed to do in the first place.
dawmdt
QUOTE (CuriousOrange @ Mon, 15 Nov 2010 - 12:47) *
You might have (as I vaguely recall this having been claimed elsewhere here by regulars, and others will have better advice if so). But a sticky issue is that magistrates have been told in their guidelines not to give bans instead of points to avoid licence revocations.

So it's a matter of arguing that the court made a mistake and could have done something which they weren't supposed to do in the first place.


Although aren't they also supposed to consider hardship to others? Does that take precedent?

It sounds like they gave his hardship claim some credence but decided it was irrelevant because he wouldn't become banned anyway...?
CuriousOrange
Exceptional hardship is only referred to in the context of a totting ban.

(Incidentally, the guidelines also say when the court is considering a discretionary disqualification, points should be applied instead if they would result in a totting ban, which very much runs counter to  the usual tactic proposed here of asking for ban instead of points in situations where a ban would not normally be considered!)

For new drivers, the guidelines state "An offender liable for an endorsement which will cause the licence to be revoked under the new drivers’ provisions may ask the court to disqualify rather than impose points. This will avoid the requirement to take a further test. Generally, this would be inappropriate since it would circumvent the clear intention of Parliament."





It's not 100% clear from the OP whether the court actually intended to help him avoid revocation, or they were just telling him it wouldn't happen (i.e. if they'd know it would happen would they still have applied the points regardless?).




Byron
It seemed clear to me that the magistrate did not intend for me to lose my license and I have no doubt that he would have made a different ruling if he believed the DVLA would revoke my license.

His decision to only fine me £60 was due to the fact that he believed I had acted on incorrect information when rejecting the conditional offer from the police as my license was never in danger.

Interestingly when discussing the law and looking it up in various legal books he also said that it would make little sense for points awarded prior to the full test to count in the 2 years probationary period and that they are only there for totting up offences when reaching 12 points. It seems very strange to me that the court can get this so wrong but there is little room for interpretation on the direct.gov website.

If the DVLA do revoke my license do I have any opportunity to dispute this as the court would clearly have made a mistake?
peterguk
QUOTE (Byron @ Tue, 16 Nov 2010 - 21:45) *
If the DVLA do revoke my license do I have any opportunity to dispute this as the court would clearly have made a mistake?


Revocation by DVLA is an administrative affair. They have nothing to do with the whys and wherefores.

If your sentence was outside of guidelines, you could appeal to the Crown Court, but since a short term ban is advised against in sentencing guidlines, it would seem difficult to see what argument you could present. And as already stated above, one less point will still result in revocation.
AntonyMMM
The sentence has been given by the court so the 4 points stand , and therefore your licence WILL be revoked. This is an automatic process that DVLA have no discretion over.

I assume you pleaded guilty, so you cannot appeal against conviction - Your only possible recourse would be to submit an appeal against sentence to get the case moved to the Crown Court, and try and argue your case there ... you need to submit a notice of appeal to the Magistrates court where the case was heard within 21 days of the sentence. I would start by contacting the clerks office at the court for advice on the procedure.

I believe (though others may know better) that once you notify DVLA of your appeal, the revocation process will pause, pending the outcome of the appeal.

..peterguk has summed up the legal position nicely though - although you have a right to appeal, I suspect you are going to struggle to get any sort of result that will keep your licence from being revoked.
The Rookie
The trouble is the appeal is effectively a rertrail at this first stage, so even though the mags got it wrong and may have given you a short ban had they got it right, this carries no weight at the appeal and you are into a lottery of trying to convince the appeal judge to not follow guidelines all over again.

Simon
Byron
Oh well, I had resigned myself to doing the test again anyway but it is somehow more annoying now that I know I could have gotten away with it if the magistrates had an understanding of the law they were upholding.

At least the fine was a lot smaller than I was expecting, and these are the best months to be off the bike!

Thanks for all your advice.
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