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Dheeraj
I'm after some advice please.

I received a PCN for overstaying my time at a pay and display car park in Hounslow Council Car Park on Wednesday 04th November evening. I had paid for half an hour as my meeting there at the council office was for half an hour only but the meeting overran and I found a PCN for £60 or £30 (if paid in 14 days) on my windscreen. Contravention code is 82 and the time it was issued at was 4.36pm. The pay and display ticket was valid till 4.29pm. I went back to talk to them but the office was closed. I requested one of the other person who parked there to get a ticket which is valid till 5.14pm but I think they take a photograph of the car so that doesn’t seem feasible. I have read somewhere that they should wait for at least 15 minutes from the expiry date which is not complied with in my case and can be a reason for appeal. Please could someone advise how can I appeal against it. I will post the PCN soon if you guys feel that will help.


Many thanks

hcandersen
We need to see the PCN.


HCA
Dheeraj
Attaching the images for PCN: Please advise.



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DancingDad
Can't read the back cos it's too faint.... any chance of a better pic ??
Dheeraj
I tried to get a better picture but it's still not good. the back side is a like that only. If we zoom on the current picture, it's a bit better and can be read apart from small bits.
hcandersen
The PCN is confusing and I wonder whether there might be mileage in this after the notice to owner is served. My point relates to what is stated under Do Not Ignore This Notice. This comprises 5 paragraphs and my concern is in respect of para. 4. Para. 3 refers to the penalty charge associated with the Notice to Owner and how representations are to be made. Para. 4 implies that if representations are made against "the penalty charge" (surely the penalty charge referred to in the immediate preceding para. i.e. the full charge payable under the NTO) within 14 days beginning with the date on which the notice (NTO?) is served " we will allow a further 14 days from the date on which the rejection letter is issued to pay the reduced penalty charge"! I'm not certain this is a winning appeal point, but lack of clarity has been used before as a winning appeal under grounds of Procedural Impropriety.

In the short term you could contact the person with whom you had the meeting and explain your plight and see if this could be dealt with internally.

Rest of PCN looks OK.

HCA



dave-o
Was this an on-street or off-street car park?
Dheeraj
Thanks for your replies. Is 15 min observation which I mentioned in my first message not a point of appeal? Would the ticket which I got from one other parkers having expiry time of 5.45pm help? I will try to speak to the person I met with. The car was parked off-street, in the Hounslow council civic centre visitors car park.
dave-o
QUOTE (Dheeraj @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 14:45) *
Thanks for your replies. Is 15 min observation which I mentioned in my first message not a point of appeal?


No. There is no statutory observation period. Even if there was, he could note the time 14 minutes before it was due to expire and then ticket you 1 minute after it expires. Observation period is not "grace period".

It will be worth requesting the CEO's notes to see when he noted your car and whether he checked his handheld against the P&D machine.

QUOTE (Dheeraj @ Fri, 5 Nov 2010 - 14:45) *
The car was parked off-street, in the Hounslow council civic centre visitors car park.


It's worth getting a copy of the PPO for that car park. These can usually be copied in person at the town hall.
Dheeraj
Thanks all for your replies.

Hi Dave-o, I will try to get these documents. Can we copy CEO’s notes and will they allow to copy or see them without actually appealing against it? What exactly should be checked with the handheld and P&D machine?

PPO, can we get this from the parking office?
Would they provide any evidences say photographs taken etc without actually appealing against it? Thanks
Dheeraj
Thanks all for your replies.

Hi Dave-o, I will try to get these documents. Can we copy CEO’s notes and will they allow to copy or see them without actually appealing against it? What exactly should be checked with the handheld and P&D machine?

PPO, can we get this from the parking office?
Would they provide any evidences say photographs taken etc without actually appealing against it? Thanks
Dheeraj
I have seen the CEO’s notes and it says faulty camera which means they couldn’t take a picture of it and which can be a basis of appeal. They were not aware of PPO so couldn’t take that. Please advise.
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (Dheeraj @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 14:27) *
I have seen the CEO’s notes and it says faulty camera which means they couldn’t take a picture of it and which can be a basis of appeal. They were not aware of PPO so couldn’t take that. Please advise.




who wasn't aware of the PPO? The Council?!!

They HAVE to make Traffic Orders and any public documents available on request, to any interested person, without delay, otherwise they are in Statutory failure! Have you got it in writing that they cannot supply the PPO?

Oh, and the PCN is defective on the front page, as stated in previous Hounslow threads, and quite possibly the Order is defective as well if it's the same as the one in the case below. I think one or other of these possibilities should win it.

An adjudicator has previously judged - in February 2010 I think, on a pepipoo successful case - that the addition of the words 'and unless this PCN is challenged' to the statutory wording on the front page is wrong.

EDIT - found it:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...47415&st=20

...and it was a Hounslow PCN, above thread adjudication was in Feb this year. Maybe bama has the adjudication information and the TRO available by pm? The PCN wording hasn't been changed since then so it's still wrong, and in that case the TRO was defective and it was a car park too, like in the OP's case...

Wonder if they've sorted out the TRO (PPO), if it's the same Order? They clearly haven't bothered to sort out their PCNs!
dave-o
QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 19:48) *
QUOTE (Dheeraj @ Tue, 9 Nov 2010 - 14:27) *
I have seen the CEO’s notes and it says faulty camera which means they couldn’t take a picture of it and which can be a basis of appeal. They were not aware of PPO so couldn’t take that. Please advise.




who wasn't aware of the PPO? The Council?!!

They HAVE to make Traffic Orders and any public documents available on request, to any interested person, without delay, otherwise they are in Statutory failure! Have you got it in writing that they cannot supply the PPO?



Dheeraj - go back in and ask for that PPO again. If they don't give you it, ask them to sign something to the effect thay they are unwilling/unable to do so.

Let them hang themselves.

PPO is "Parking Places Order" by the way.
bama
search for
"statutory failure"
in the parking forum for some posts that should help you
Dheeraj
Thanks for your replies. There was a service desk at council office which can show you any documents related to PCN. When I asked them about PPO, they didn't know what PPO (Parking places order) is. I am not sure if I have to ask some other department about that. I will have to go again to get that PPO which is sometimes difficult because it clashes with work timings.

I appreciate your directions towards statutory failures but what I was wondering about is, since they couldn't take any photograph of display ticket (faulty camera as per CEO's notes), if I ask for some proof when I appeal against it, they won't be able to provide that.I also have another ticket valid till 05.45 pm, which is later than observation time, if they ask, we can produce that.

I am also attaching the copy of CEO's notes.

Thanks



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hcandersen
We do not suggest you falsify your evidence.

The CEO's notes are not in the form required, there must be specific reference to a vehicle registration mark, timings and the issuing of the PCN.


HCA
SchoolRunMum
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 11 Nov 2010 - 17:55) *
We do not suggest you falsify your evidence.

The CEO's notes are not in the form required, there must be specific reference to a vehicle registration mark, timings and the issuing of the PCN.

HCA




Can't believe they've written out the CEOs notes on a comps slip and expect that to be OK!!

That and the other points already made must mean this case will be won in the end by the OP, surely.
Glacier2
Hounslow are just trying it on. Keep fighting.
Dheeraj
Hi, Thanks for your replies. can this CEO’s notes being not in right format be made a basis for appeal. As per CEO’s notes, they couldn’t take a photograph, if I make a representation and ask for some proof of alleged contravention, since they don’t have any, will I not win it then? Do we have 28 days to make an appeal against it?
Glacier2
You need to wait for the Notice to Owner to appeal further.
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