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just call me idiot
Let me start by saying I know I am an idiot and rather than feeling sorry for myself I am really annoyed with myself.  icon_evil.gif

Yesterday at around 3pm I was pulled by a marked car which was parked on the hidden side of a dual carriageway bridge. The dual carriageway had no speed restriction and was almost empty.

After flying by him I watched him join the road and catch me up. I pulled over and sat in the car with him. He explained that I had been caught on a radar device (little black box) which had a digital readout on it.

114mph was showing on the screen and despite the genuine distress on my face and the policeman's sympathy he had no choice but to offer a verbal NIP.

I am 23, I have 4 points already (99mph on a dual carriageway - offence committed last August) for which I attended court.

What are my options...

My mitigating factors include:

a) I was rushing home as I had been staying away for the night and received a text message from my girlfriend who had fallen down the stairs.
B) If banned I will be unable to move house (sale being finalised in 2 weeks)
c) If banned I will lose my job

I need all your wisdom and advice to answer the following questions...

1) I could possibly organise to cover a large fine to keep from a ban but is this likely to be accepted?
2) What is the maximum fine they can impose, is a dual-carriageway the same as a motorway?
2) How long is a ban likely to be for with this offence (and past record)
3) If a ban is issued are the 4 points I have then removed?

_____________________________________________

Also, and this is just an additional note out of interest...

The only document I was given was a green 'producer' certificate with no mention of a speeding offence, simply the 'Offence' box ticked. This is also the only document I signed. I also offered no ID.

The details for the vehicle are wrong also, I was in a BMW 323 coupe, the slip states it is a BMW M3 saloon, does this make any difference?
_____________________________________________


Thanks in advance of your help.
matt1133
QUOTE
a) I was rushing home as I had been staying away for the night and received a text message from my girlfriend who had fallen down the stairs.


did you tell the policeman this? do you still have a record of the message?
just call me idiot
I still have a copy of the text message... did tell the policeman but he fairly said that it did not give a reason to drive at that speed.

In court it may be present some sort of support for me though?

What do you think I should be expecting in terms of sentence?
just call me idiot
Can anyone shed any light on the following...?

1) What is the maximum fine they can impose, is a dual-carriageway classed as a motorway?
2) How long is a ban likely to be for with this offence (and past record)
3) If a ban is issued are the 4 points I have then removed?
4) What impact does a ban have on insurance opposed to 6 points?
just call me idiot
1. Offence committed in England
2. *** Constabulary
3. ***
4. UNKNOWN
5. ***  
6. Verbal NIP given
7. VERBAL
8. I am the RK
9. I hold a UK driving licence
10. I have 4 points
11. Please see above!
andy_foster
QUOTE (just call me idiot)
1) What is the maximum fine they can impose, is a dual-carriageway classed as a motorway?

Level 3 (£1000). No.

QUOTE (just call me idiot)
3) If a ban is issued are the 4 points I have then removed?

IIRC a ban of under 56 days does not affect existing points. 56 days or more removes points from your licence.

QUOTE (just call me idiot)
4) What impact does a ban have on insurance opposed to 6 points?

Get some online quotes.
just call me idiot
Andy, thanks so much for your reply...

I am thinking of handling this the following way...

Plead guilty
State mitigating circumstances
     - Girlfriend had an accident, got the message a few hours later, panicked, rushed home
     - Due to move house at the end of May and will be unable to commute to work - this will impact on my girlfriend due to financial reasons
     - Will miss out on the possibility of a promotion at the end of July if I am banned still - this will impact on my girlfriend due to financial reasons

In your opinion how long a ban am I likely to receive, 1 month, 3 months, 6 months???

Can I say, "I have done wrong, I deserve a ban but to be banned for more than a month would result in major hardship for my partner".
Clear Skies
QUOTE (just call me idiot)
Plead guilty
State mitigating circumstances
     - Girlfriend had an accident, got the message a few hours later, panicked, rushed home".


they won't like it if you tell them more people die from falling , than from speed on the roads..
so best I dont add anything else..

just good luck
rgds
zuegma
I don't think you will get much joy out of the magistrates in mitigation.
Just look at the facts:

1. Young Driver.
2. Fast car
3. Similar offence less than a year before.
4. Driving at 114mph .
5. Driving at this speed on a sunday afternoon (Children about)

What would you do if this was put before you as a magistrate.
I don't think that putting your girlfriends accident as mitigation would help because I am sure that the magistrates will take the opinion that if she was well enough to send a text message, she would have been well enough to call an ambulance. They would just see this as a weak excuse, especially as you said the message was a few hours old.

I would think you are likely to get banned and if the magistrates think you are trying it on with mitigation, they will impose a heavier penalty. If you are going to use anything in mitigation use something solid.

You said that you would lose your job if you were banned and then you said you would only lose out on promotion. Which one is it?
If you will lose your job, get a letter from your employer stating this, losing out on promotion is not a good reason. If you cannot commute to work if you are banned, then you must show the court that there is no other possible way you could get to work. Once again just because this might mean you have to take a 3 hour journey on public transport rather than a 30 car drive is not a good reason.

As for insurance, I would advise you to change your car to something a lot smaller as you are going to find it very difficult to find someone to insure you and if you do, the premium will be huge. Try getting a few quotes now to see what I mean.

You might want to invest in a pushbike, be careful you don't get done for riding furiously though..........
just call me idiot
@ Lee et al...

Some good points there, thanks everyone!

I think you are right, so...

Attending court and showing full sorrow and disgrace at my actions. Stating in mitigation that I will lose my job if banned which will have huge knock-on effects for my partner and the payment of our mortgage etc.

what sentence should I expect?


IMHO I would rather receive a short ban than 6 points as this will leave me with 4 points following the ban rather than 10 points for the next 3 years.

Is there any scope in saying to the magistrate, "I deserve a ban but it must be no more than one month!"

My thoughts were, if a letter from my employer stated, Mr X is due to take on more travel based projects within his current role from (*hearing date plus one month) therefore, if he was to lose his license we would have no choice but to terminate his employment with us in favour of someone who is able to travel by car.
YSD
Hi there.
Have you received your summons yet?
I've just been to court and pleaded guilty to 102 in a 60 - got 6 points + 300 fine.
Your conduct in court and how you play your mitigation hand can influence the outcome. Make sure you wear a suit. You'll be suprised by how many people don't dress up for the occasion - what impression does that give? You need to convince them that you are taking this very seriously. Make sure you address the mags and other court staff as either sir or madam - appear humble and try and look a little shell shocked (which is remarkably easy to do when you're there in court!!).
Once your up it's all over in a flash so you'll need to plan what your going to say - it's far too easy to forget something important because you're nervous. Write out your structure and main points and use this to prompt you (take care not to read it out word for word).
Bob Sprocket and Chadders' mitigation examples are text book stuff, use these as a guide: [forum link]

The 2 main points in my case which prevented me from getting a ban were the fact that I held a clean license previously and that I had been on a Bikesafe training course since getting stopped - I showed the mags a certificate and they seemed to like that a great deal - they looked at each other and at the certificate and started nodding their heads! If you show that you've taken/are taking steps to improve your driving then it will be taken into consideration and may just tip the balnce in your favour. Get your self booked onto a course now - it's time well spent, and will make you a safer driver.

The level of fine you get is based on your means enquiry form, the max fine for motorways is £2500 and for 60 roads is £1000 (I'm not sure about dual carriageways but someone earlier mentioned £1000 which seems to make sense). It's highly unlikely you'll get fined the max - you'd have to be a big earner to get that. If you enter a timely guilty plea then whatever fine they give you will be reduced by a 3rd - they will mention this during summing up.

At the end of the day it's important to remember that it's not the end of the world - you're still in one piece. Try and relax a bit and be happy in the knowledge that you wont make the same mistake again (will you?)  :wink:
keyhole
jcmi

I've attended the local Magistates Court many times now as a spectator.
(not a masochist - just early retired!)

Most of the motoring cases there are for guys about to lose their licence, ie, they currently have 9 points and are likely to pick up another 3.

In all of these cases the magistrates have encouraged the accused to explain any hardship that the loss of their licence might cause.  And in many situations I am sure that had the guy tried a bit harder he would have kept his licence - maybe had a higher fine.

One stupid chap actually said 'No problem - my wife will have to drive me to work .....

So if your case does go to trial, do yourself a favour and have a really good sob-story ready.
polus
QUOTE
5. Driving at this speed on a sunday afternoon (Children about)


rolleyes.gif errr ok.
just call me idiot
Thank you one and all for your comments... still no summons yet but the offence wasn't all that long ago; I expect it to appear when the weather starts to get cold and wet and I have to start catching the bus!  :cry:

I am going to book myself onto a driving course and change my attitude to driving and just hope that when I am in front of the mags that this comes across on my side.

I am going to start drawing up mitigation; with 4 points already my aim is to ask for a short ban rather than push for 6 points as most people do.

Can anyone think of some good ways to go about this  :?:
keyhole
jcmi

You are beginning to lose me now.....

You said that you would lose your job if you get banned.......and now you are considering asking to be banned!

Surely it's better to get 6 points, and to try hard not to collect any more in the next 3 years.  A ban will not sit very well with your insurers.

good luck anyway...
YSD
jcmi - you can't actually persuade the mags to give you what you think will be best for you, it really is up to them. All you can do is show them how good you really are, how much you're aware of the mistake you've made and how punishing you could affect other people. Do you best in court and see what happens. If you do get banned remember that insurers will ask you if you've received any disqualifications in the last 10 years. You really need to make sure that you don't keep making mistakes otherwise you'll run out of options. Good luck, and do you best, ok?
andy_foster
I thought that only applied to drink drive bans?
Insider
Its only 5 years AFAIK
due to the rehabilitation of offenders act.  :wink:
YSD
Carol Nash ask for details of speeding offences in the last 5 years, and any disqualifications (not just DD) in the last 10.
jeffreyarcher
QUOTE (YSD)
Carol Nash ask for details of speeding offences in the last 5 years, and any disqualifications (not just DD) in the last 10.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.
QUOTE ([url=http://www.lawontheweb.co.uk/rehabact.htm)
Law on the Web[/url]]The rehabilitation period for a disqualification is the length of the disqualification.
Insider
QUOTE ([url=http://www.ivillage.co.uk/motoring/accidentsoffences/articles/0 @ ,637760_640334-2,00.html)
iVillage/Law on the Web[/url]]Applying For Insurance
If the proposal form asks whether the applicant has any previous convictions, the answer can be 'no' if the convictions are spent. This is the case even if the conviction is relevant to the risk which the insurers will underwrite. (For example, spent motoring convictions are not required on a proposal form for motor insurance.)


Maybe Bob_Sprockett can give us some words of wisdom  :wink:
just call me idiot
Insider, is this correct? It seems to contradict common knowledge on the subject...

When it says past convictions spent, what does this mean? If a month ban received, after this is served and someone is legally driving again, they do not have to disclose the ban?

Does this apply if the insurers ask for any convictions received in the last 5 years?
Insider
QUOTE
Insider, is this correct? It seems to contradict common knowledge on the subject...


I'd love to be 'positive' and as yes it is, but i'm not sure to be honest which is why I wondered about BobS. i'll send him a pm to direct him here.  

This is my understanding, but it may not be correct.
Technically if a conviction is 'spent' for the purposes of the Rehab acts, then it effectively ceases to exist for all normal purposes, unless it is an exempted situation or job where you have to tell them about every conviction for ever n ever.
So as your insurance company is not an exempted situation, or job etc, you shouldn't have to tell them about spent convictions. However, I think some proper advice is needed  :lol:
just call me idiot
Insider... this would be an amzing fact for everyone should it be confirmed...

"Watch this space", as they say!
Bob_Sprocket
Hi,

Its in the Resettlement of Offenders Act as ammended. In effect you have to disclose most motoring convictions that occured in the last five years the only exceptions are the more serious DR and DD offence codes which have a manditory disqualification for which the period is 11 years.

If a proposal for asks "have you ever" and the answer would be "yes but more than 5 or 11 years respectively" then you can just answer no because they are not allowed to ask that question and mean "ever".

It would be interesting if someone went through the complaints process on this one and it got to the FSA because I think that they may well fine the company asking a question in this way.

Disqualifications through totting up or short term speeding bans are in the 5 year category.

Any doubts on this refer to the RoOA.

Best wishes

Bob
just call me idiot
Thanks for your help Bob...

Excuse my ignorance, but what is DR and DD?

QUOTE
Disqualifications through totting up or short term speeding bans are in the 5 year category.


- Do these form part of some sort of definitive list or is this a judgement call?

I suppose what I am asking is, "Is it worth the risk to not declare a 1 month ban (example) or would you be left with a void policy?"
pklnm
IMHO I would rather receive a short ban than 6 points as this will leave me with 4 points following the ban rather than 10 points for the next 3 years.

Is there any scope in saying to the magistrate, "I deserve a ban but it must be no more than one month!"


I don't think you're in any position to appear to be dictating what the sentence should be to the magistrates - as many have said in these fora, humility is the name of the game

As for your ban/points preference, this suggests you would like a bit more scope to drive at the margin or beyond - can you not instead treat this as a learning experience and adapt your driving accordingly?

Not what you want to hear I guess but sometimes you have to be CTBK
Bob_Sprocket
QUOTE (just call me idiot)
Excuse my ignorance, but what is DR and DD?


By the way this is not a complete list of offences with mandatory bans.

DR = Alchohol and drugs related offences
DD = Range from dangerous driving to causing death by dangerous driving

QUOTE (just call me idiot)
QUOTE
Disqualifications through totting up or short term speeding bans are in the 5 year category.


- Do these form part of some sort of definitive list or is this a judgement call?

I suppose what I am asking is, "Is it worth the risk to not declare a 1 month ban (example) or would you be left with a void policy?"
 

It depends how the question is asked. Some ask "have you incurred any speeding convictions in the last 5 years?" You answer yes.

They may well then ask for the code, points and fine. You might be able to answer this SP30 6pts £300 fine. You would have to make your own decision about whether you needed to disclose a short term ban under the catch all declaration at the end of the proposal.

To be honest I think that if you are in a relatively difficult position you would be better going through a local broker. Tell them that you have had the short term ban and they will know whether the insurers they would recomend to you would need to/want to know this.

Interestingly when I took out insurance for my motor cycle last year I was asked if I had any pending prosecutions. This year at renewal I rang to tell them about one I have pending and they said that they did not need me to inform them until it was settled.

Best wishes

Bob
just call me idiot
Thats interesting, thanks Bob!

I have a friend who is nearing the end of a 12 month ban for riding his motorbike whilst over the drink limit.

Would this come under the DD header and so would not need to be declared? Just wondered if I could brighten his afternoon!!!
Bob_Sprocket
QUOTE (just call me idiot)
Thats interesting, thanks Bob!

I have a friend who is nearing the end of a 12 month ban for riding his motorbike whilst over the drink limit.

Would this come under the DD header and so would not need to be declared? Just wondered if I could brighten his afternoon!!!


That'll probably be a DR offence code and he will have to disclose it for 11 years.

Bob
andy_foster
QUOTE (just call me idiot)
When it says past convictions spent, what does this mean? If a month ban received, after this is served and someone is legally driving again, they do not have to disclose the ban?

Does this apply if the insurers ask for any convictions received in the last 5 years?


According to the web site (famous last words) if there is a fine with the ban, then it is spent after 5 years.
YSD
QUOTE (Bob_Sprocket)
Hi,

Its in the Resettlement of Offenders Act as ammended. In effect you have to disclose most motoring convictions that occured in the last five years the only exceptions are the more serious DR and DD offence codes which have a manditory disqualification for which the period is 11 years.

If a proposal for asks "have you ever" and the answer would be "yes but more than 5 or 11 years respectively" then you can just answer no because they are not allowed to ask that question and mean "ever".

It would be interesting if someone went through the complaints process on this one and it got to the FSA because I think that they may well fine the company asking a question in this way.

Disqualifications through totting up or short term speeding bans are in the 5 year category.

Any doubts on this refer to the RoOA.

Best wishes

Bob


Thanks Bob,
I wonder how they'd respond if you challenged them over this when you were asking for a quote? I might just try this out later!
andyjflet
Hi Just call me an Idiot

Try not to beat yourself up too much about it, Ive been through similar and became very matter of fact about it, you cant change it when they dish out your punishment so try and live with it.

I had 3 points and recently went to court for a 82 in a 50 incident, took a year to come to trial and I fought it first time, unfortunately this just gave them time to gather the evidence they previously forgot and made a watertight case.

I can confirm that wearing a suit, being polite, looking humble and shell shocked, maybe even distressed will help your case, I offered mitigating circumstances regarding loss of employment and my IAM certificate. Luckily my employer is based 500 miles away so I couldnt get a "desk job" and with a big telling off and £350 fine I got another 6 points. Not ideal I know but I actually quite like driving really slow now and holding up the traffic ! Particularly as I drive a 330Ci Sport.

Good luck mate and hope it works out for you, start driving slowly from now on, and one more thing, I use the train whenever I can now to London to reduce any possible risk.
just call me idiot
andyjflet, thanks a lot for your kind words... the thought of standing in front of a mag and actually hearing the speed I was doing read out sends shivers up my spine... I hope this is enough to make me cry on the day!!!

I am starting to compile mitigation and I hope I come across well, however, we will see!

Thanks again... and remember... slow and steady wins the race!
matt1133
Mitigation:
[forum link]
just call me idiot
QUOTE
Mitigation:  http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=4183&highlight=mitigation


Thanks dude! Applied for my Driver Improvement Course today as well... £150 for 1.5 days... ouch! Plus I get to spend the day with TWOCers and other such scum  :evil:
chadders
Money well spent though when going down the mitigation route, as YSD showed. Of course, on your 'Statement of Income' form, you can list that under 'other expenditure' - when mags work out your fine, they should consider that, and it will act as a little reminder.
just call me idiot
Thats a great little tip - I hadn't though of that!

What about Pepipoo membership ... could I disclose that once I pay!!!
just call me idiot
OK - Summons received - I am due to appear in 2 weeks time.

- A couple of questions regarding the bundle (I will try and scan later)

The witness statement from the officer who pulled me over (one officer in car) states that my car was a BMW M3 Saloon which is actually wrong, I drive a 323 Coupe.

icon_arrow.gif  Does this have any impact?



The witness statement, whilst signed by the officer, is not signed by a corroborator or witnessed by anyone - this part is left blank

icon_arrow.gif   Does this have any impact?


- Do I have to tell the court immediately how I wish to plead? In your great experience, what are the pros and cons of doing this now or when appearing?
Broadsword
QUOTE
The witness statement from the officer who pulled me over (one officer in car) states that my car was a BMW M3 Saloon which is actually wrong, I drive a 323 Coupe.  

 Does this have any impact
No, (hmmmm....there again......."officer, you say my clients car is a BMW M3 Saloon whereas in actual fact it is a BMW 323 Coupe, you have made a mistake. What else are you mistaken about?"

QUOTE
The witness statement, whilst signed by the officer, is not signed by a corroborator or witnessed by anyone - this part is left blank  

  Does this have any impact?


No Im afraid, Police Officers signatures on statements are no longer "witnessed" by another officer (mores the shame!)
BikerPaul
QUOTE (andy_foster)
QUOTE (just call me idiot)

When it says past convictions spent, what does this mean? If a month ban received, after this is served and someone is legally driving again, they do not have to disclose the ban?

Does this apply if the insurers ask for any convictions received in the last 5 years?


According to the web site (famous last words) if there is a fine with the ban, then it is spent after 5 years.


You do not have to declare any "spent" convictions. This includes motoring offences.
Buzzzzzz
QUOTE (just call me idiot)
OK - Summons received - I am due to appear in 2 weeks time.

- A couple of questions regarding the bundle (I will try and scan later)

The witness statement from the officer who pulled me over (one officer in car) states that my car was a BMW M3 Saloon which is actually wrong, I drive a 323 Coupe.

icon_arrow.gif  Does this have any impact?


I was done for 112 on the M23 earlier this year. I was actually summoned twice for the same offence. It appears that the nice policemen forgot he'd already done it!! However, when he wrote the second statement, he was in a different police car?? It was also a different time of day. I was represented by Robert Dobson and he said this would be seen as an 'honest' mistake by the court as they always beleive anything the police say!! So the fact that he got your car wrong will be seen as an 'honest' mistake!!
just call me idiot
OK...

Had my morning with the mags...



14 day ban
0 points
£200 fine


A result I think you will agree!

Put in a hell of a lot of work to prepare, construct a mitigation statement and some other goodies which really helped me no end  :wink:  !!!
TTonigmr2
0 points is a bit of a result.
T
just call me idiot
Yeah... I was so pleased!

To be honest I felt I did really well in the room and delivered it perfectly. Plus I had a real ACE up my sleeve which I demonstrated in court and the mags loved it, commended me highly on my ACE whilst summing up!
REG OLIVER
I KNOW ITS NOT MUCH USE NOW BUT DID THE HIGHWAY HAVE CAMEAR SIGNS DISPLAYED AND IF SO DID THEY CONFORM TO THE DfT REGULATIONS FOR SIZE ETC. a RECENT CASE HERE WAS THAT THE SIGNS FOR A DUAL GARRIAGEWAY WERE NOT OF THE CORRECT SIZE AND OVERGROWN. THE NIP WAS WITHDRAWN . NEITHER SCAMERA PARTNERSHIP OR HIGHWAYS ADMITTED BEING WRONG BUT NO PROSECUTION TOOK PLACE AND NEW LARGER SIGNS WERE INSTALLED. NEVER BELIEVE AN OFFICERS STATEMENTS OR CLAIMS. REGARDS REG OLIVER
Rallyman72
RO - no need to SHOUT!
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