Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Producing Licence=Pleading Guilty?
FightBack Forums > Queries > Speeding and other Criminal Offences
Pages: 1, 2
fossn
Hi Everyone
I got shot speeding and was given a ticket. 28 days to pay or go to court. I also got asked to produce my licence within 7 days.
I went to the station and produced my licence. The officer gave me a receipt and kept it. I asked why. She said it would be sent away to be endorsed. I said I haven't decided what to do and want it back. She said taking it back meant I was deciding to plead not guilty. I took it back. I got a letter within days saying I had decided to plead not guilty. If I had used the automated fine payment phone line I would get a refund.
The thing is the ticket says I have 28 days to decide. I felt steamrollered by the officer taking my licence like that before I had had time to decide what to do. The producer seems to be having the effect of making up my mind for me as to whether or not I am paying it.
Advice/opinions please.
The Rookie
You did indeed have 28 days to decide, it seems common these days that the front desk gimps haven't a clue how to administer this properly, expecting everybody to accept when they 'produce', you should also have been given the substantiated FPN now they have seen your licence.

Howevere it could be good fortune, I suggest writing an immediate letter of complaint (use online system its faster, most forces have it) complaining about the poor training this guy has had, and how he is removing your legal rights, thye may just write off the ticket by way of apology.

Simon
Gan
If the OP does receive a summons, can he argue "Abuse of process" that the FPN offer was withdrawn before the 28 days ?
CuriousOrange
They didn't withdraw the FPN offer, because an FPN cannot be given until the licence has been surrendered for retention. Just 'seeing the licence' isn't enough.

Not leaving your licence with them means you're opting for the process to continue, i.e. court summons (which isn't necessarily the same as pleading not guilty); however, if you surrender your licence in return for an FPN you can still decide, within the 28 days, to opt for court instead of accepting the FPN, though you have to do this actively.

I don't see that any legal right has been removed, but there could be an outside chance of kicking up a fuss that the latter point above wasn't explained properly which disadvantaged the OP. At the very least if they still end up in court they may be able to argue for points + fine equivalent to the acceptance of the fixed penalty.

I'm guessing it's too late now, but if it were still within the original 7 days then the OP could still surrender their licence in return for an FPN - there's nothing saying it has to be done at the same time as producing.

The Rookie
I'm not sure I agree, he doesn't have to 'surrender' (give up his licence) to get the FPN substantiated, he merely has to 'produce' it for insection, he should have been then given the balance of the 28 day suspended enforcement period within which to accept OR decline the FPN, only after that should any further action occur.

While what he was given at the roadside is not strictly an FPN, it should be substantiated when he produces (as per old 7 day producer protocol) and the 'provivional FPN' be cnverted into a substantive one, as with any FPN he has 28 days from day of issue (confusingly now the date of issue of the provisional) to decide what to do, the desk occifer was forcing him to make that decision in less than the stipulated in law 28 days, how can that not remove that legal right?

If he decided to accept that FPN within the 28 days then and only then did he have to surrender (give up and walk away without) his licence.

Simon
CuriousOrange
The relevant statute is clear: (5) states that you must be given an FPN if you (5b) surrender your licence to be retained and dealt with, within seven days of being given 'a' notice (which is different to an FPN, even though they usually end up being the same piece of paper) by a constable due to not producing your licence for inspection at the time.

The notice given by the constable is effectively nothing more than an entitlement to 'claim your free FPN' on surrendering your licence for retention at the police station. These notices are almost always put bits of paper marked FPN, but they're not FPNs and as the statute makes no description as far as I can see as to what form they take, the constable could just as easily write the 'notice' on the a back of an envelope is s/he chose to.

Surrendering is a separate issue to producing, as in where a constable has required you to produce your driving licence under RTA 1988 S.164). 

If you don't surrender your licence to be retained and dealt with, you can't be given an FPN.

At any point within the 28 days from getting an FPN you can decide to opt for court, but you're not then 'unsurrendering' your licence, you're just not accepting the fixed penalty.

The OP's 'legal right' was to be given an FPN on surrendering their licence for retention. The desk jockey wasn't refusing to do that. The best that can be argued is that she wasn't fully explaining his rights to him (by pointing out that he could surrender his licence to get an FPN but then still opt for court within the 28 days).
jobo
yep you need to surrender in 7 days, if you want to retain the option of accepting the FPN,
roadrunner 163
this is a mine field but the short and sweet is.


the constable may give him a notice stating that if, within seven days after the notice is given, he produces the notice together with his licence and its counterpart in person to a constable or authorised person at the police station specified in the notice (being a police station chosen by the person concerned) and the requirements of subsection (5)(a) and (b) below are met he will then be given a fixed penalty notice in respect of the offence.

5 b he surrenders his licence and its counterpart to the constable or authorised person to be retained and dealt with in accordance with this Part of this Act,

The above gets you the Fixed Penalty Notice.

You still have the remaining time of the 28 days from midnight of the day the notice was issued to request a court appearance.

this will result in the licence being retuned to you at the address on the licence.

Or you pay the fine and the licence get endorsed.
andy_foster
Perhaps one of our regulars ought to see a doctor about his Alzheimers - I have previously and repeatedly explained the law on the matter to him - which is exactly as Curious Orange has stated.

If the notice is misleading, that may well be grounds for a court to apply a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty, but it would help to see the notice.
baggins1234
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 2 Nov 2010 - 14:45) *
Perhaps one of our regulars ought to see a doctor about his Alzheimers - I have previously and repeatedly explained the law on the matter to him - which is exactly as Curious Orange has stated.

If the notice is misleading, that may well be grounds for a court to apply a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty, but it would help to see the notice.


CO and AF are correct.
It should be fully explained on the fixed penalty, mind you, you will probably need a magnifying glass to read it!
mjkerr
QUOTE (fossn @ Tue, 2 Nov 2010 - 08:02) *
I also got asked to produce my licence within 7 days

Did you happen to photocopy this form?
It may have been marked to retain licence and send to the officer, otherwise it is view or record only, and should have been returned to you

However, if you handed over your licence and the FPN at the designated Police Station, they should have given you both back as the FPN needs to go to the relevant court
CuriousOrange
The above is just wrong throughout, for the reasons given previously.

The Rookie
QUOTE (andy_foster @ Tue, 2 Nov 2010 - 14:45) *
Perhaps one of our regulars ought to see a doctor about his Alzheimers - I have previously and repeatedly explained the law on the matter to him - which is exactly as Curious Orange has stated.

If the notice is misleading, that may well be grounds for a court to apply a sentence equivalent to the fixed penalty, but it would help to see the notice.

Having re-read that post I now understand what you meant, but at the time you didn't make it clear (to me), I will admit to misunderstanding the process as its so completley the illogical way to do it!

Simon
fossn
Hi All
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm not sure what the definitive advice is.
I don't have the producer any more the desk officer kept it when I refused to surrender my licence.
I still have the FPN saying I have 28 days to pay or go to court. Incidentally it is headed Endorseable penalty Notice or EPN.
it has the amount £60 to pay. It refers to notes on a seperate part which I no longer have. I don't know whether this was the producer part which was kept at the station or another unknown part I don't have.
Can someone please sum up what I should do/say.
I still have the letter saying :-
" I have been informed that you are unable/unwilling to produce/surrender your driving licence in response to the issue of the above numbered fixed penalty notice"
Cheers.
CuriousOrange
Production of your driving licence (and MOT/insurance) is a separate matter to the speeding ticket. It doesn't matter if you still have any bits of paper related to that or not.

It doesn't matter what it says on the piece of paper you hold in your hand. It's not a fixed penalty notice. 

You could try writing a letter of complaint pointing out that  the procedure wasn't explained properly to you, and they might take pity and decide no further action, but I wouldn't hold your breath.

Most likely you'll just have to wait up to six months or over for a court summons, unless they lose interest.

Out of interest, what was the alleged speed in what limit, and what was the date of the offence?

Logician
Or you could try going back to the police station and saying you did not understand the procedure before and now want the FPN.
CuriousOrange
There's little point doing that, given that the FPN can only be issued if you surrender your licence for retention within seven days of the alleged offence.
Logician
Within 7 days of receiving the NIP, I think, and we do not know when that expires. Also, it is worth a try, if those at the front desk are not too sure what they are doing anyway.
CuriousOrange
Within seven days of being given a notice by the constable, which happens when he/she stops you, i.e. at the time of the alleged offence in this case.

Given the thread was started six days ago, and the OP had already produced and then received a letter "within days", we do know that it's already expired by now.

The OP can certainly hope to confuse the issue by going in late with their bit of paper missing a separate part that they no longer have, if they think that's a useful way to spend their time.
fossn
The FPN was issued on 2/10/10.
I was doing 42mph in a 30 limit.
I can't remember when I produced but the letter is dated the 11/10/10 so they didn't hang about.
Is there any mileage in the fact they refer to the ticket as a Fixed penalty Notice which I had 28 days to decide whether to pay or not?
I'm planning to just sit tight and wait for the summons.
Do they have 6 months to summons me?
jobo
your options are few im afraid

between the desk walla and you not understanding the process, your now waiting for summons

the advice about making a complaint is good, it might not help but wont do any harm and will pass an hour on, shout up if you need help with the letter

they have 6 months to report it for sommons and then a few weeks to send it to you, the chances of them forgetting are slight

this happen to me, in just the circumstances you describe of being told the wrong info at the desk and turning down the chance of an fpn,

i though in for a penny, infor a pound and took it to court and won
andy_foster
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 8 Nov 2010 - 16:56) *
Is there any mileage in the fact they refer to the ticket as a Fixed penalty Notice which I had 28 days to decide whether to pay or not?


If you were disadvantaged by misleading advice or wording, to the extent that you were effectively deprived of the opportunity to avoid liability of the alleged offence in exchange for paying a penalty of £60 and 3 points on your licence, then there would seem to be a strong argument that the court should apply the same penalty - if you plead guilty.

In theory, you lost the opportunity to take a fixed penalty when you hadn't surrendered your licence at the end of the 7th day. Anything that misled you before then is likely to be relevant to the above argument. Anything that misled you after that point cannot be a factor in you not surrendering your licence, but might help to support a claim that you were previously misled.
fossn
Hi
I got an endorseable fixed penalty at the roadside for speeding with a producer( I didn't have my d/l) for 7 days.

I went to the sty 6 days later and produced. The desk officer tried to keep my licence. I objected. She siad if you don't leave it you can't take the fixed penalty. I say I've got 28 days and want to check some proceedural stuff. She says if you take it back you can't take the fixed penalty.
I took it back. She kept the producer part of the ticket. I received a letter 5 days later saying as I didn't produce/surrender my licence I can't pay the fixed penalty and if I did it would be returned and the case would have to go to court.

Question 1) Where are the rules/regulations regarding the issue of fixed penalties for speeding?
Question 2) have I been denied my right to 28 days to decide?
Question 3) Should the issuing officer been aware of the surrendering issue and warned me?
Question 4) Am I entitled to a full copy of the ticket to check whether it says you will lose the right to 28 days if you produce your d/l?
Question 5) has anyone challenged this in court yet?
Question 6) Should I fight it in court?

I remember being stopped years ago for speeding and not having my d/l. The cop said I couldn't have a fixed penalty ticket and gave me a NIP and producer. Obviously nowadays they can check Swansea. Has this changed the rules and is the producer a sneaky way of getting your licence since they have confirmed with Swansea already that you have one?
Pancras
What are the circumstances surrounding the issue of the fixed penalty?

QUOTE
Question 1) Where are the rules/regulations regarding the issue of fixed penalties for speeding?

In order for the fixed penalty to be proceeded with, you must surrender your licence. You have 7 days to surrender this, and following that a further 28 days to either accept the Fixed Penalty and send payment, or to request a court hearing, in which circumstances your licence will be returned to you pending the court hearing.

QUOTE
Question 2) have I been denied my right to 28 days to decide?

You only have the right to decide if you surrender your licence. This is laid out in legislation under s.54(4), (5), (6) and (7) of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.

QUOTE
Question 3) Should the issuing officer been aware of the surrendering issue and warned me?

No. The terms of the ticket are set out on the back of it, and in any event, you was warned that this was the case when you produced your licence.

QUOTE
Question 4) Am I entitled to a full copy of the ticket to check whether it says you will lose the right to 28 days if you produce your d/l?

No

QUOTE
Question 5) has anyone challenged this in court yet?

Not that I am aware of. As it is written into the legislation, then there is nothing to challenge.

QUOTE
Question 6) Should I fight it in court?

The best you can hope for is that when you plead guilty, you ask for the magistrates to impose the same fine and points in respect of the offence that you would have recieved the fixed penalty.
Fredd
@OP: Why you decided to start a new thread to ask the same questions as had already been discussed at length in a previous thread, I have no idea. However they've now been merged.
fossn
order for the fixed penalty to be proceeded with, you must surrender your licence. You have 7 days to surrender this, and following that a further 28 days to either accept the Fixed Penalty and send payment, or to request a court hearing, in which circumstances your licence will be returned to you pending the court hearing.

I didn't get this. I had 7 days to produce my licence. Because I didn't the fixed penalty was withdrawn. Are you saying I have a further 28 days to decide or not. you are contradicting yourself.
jobo
thev surrender and the decision to accept ate not the same thing

if you do surrender you have the option to accept the fpn or contest

if you dont surrender it, then you have no such option to accept the fpn

and it does seem the copper tried to explain this to you
southpaw82
You had seven days to produce your licence in order for an FPN to be issued. What you had (despite what it may say on it) was not an FPN as one can only be issued after your licence has been examined. As speeding is an offence involving obligatory endorsement the officer couldn't give you an FPN without seeing your licence (s. 54(3) Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988). What he instead gives you is a notice under s. 54(4). This requires you to produce and surrender your licence at a police station within seven days. If you do so and are eligible for an FPN (ie under nine points) they must give you an FPN. Since you did not surrender your licence you did not comply with the notice (per s. 54(5)(b) RTOA 88) and as such lost the opportunity to be issued an FPN.

fossn
The Road traffic offenders Act s54 states that if the licence is not surrendered to the officer he can give a 7 day ticket for the licence to be produced and surrendered at a station and then a 28 day fixed penalty notice can be issued.
by giving me a ticket which gives me the 28 days the issuer is jumping the gun. The ticket should only be a 7 day producer/surrender ticket. then I know when I take it to the station with my licence and surrender said licence I have 28 days to decide whether or not to pay or go to court.

The ticket I have clearly gives me 28 days to pay. It tells me how to pay in person or by telephone. It is not a 7 day surrender notice.
southpaw82
QUOTE (fossn @ Sat, 12 Mar 2011 - 19:29) *
It is not a 7 day surrender notice.


Now that's where we come to an interesting legal argument.

1. It is a notice (as opposed to an FPN) because an FPN could not lawfully be issued due to s. 54(4).

2. It is an FPN (albeit issued outside of the strict requirements of s. 54) and you have 28 days to comply with it.

Either way you end up arguing the point in court. Andy Foster has quite an argument around this very point.
Pancras
QUOTE (fossn @ Sat, 12 Mar 2011 - 19:29) *
The Road traffic offenders Act s54 states that if the licence is not surrendered to the officer he can give a 7 day ticket for the licence to be produced and surrendered at a station and then a 28 day fixed penalty notice can be issued.

by giving me a ticket which gives me the 28 days the issuer is jumping the gun. The ticket should only be a 7 day producer/surrender ticket. then I know when I take it to the station with my licence and surrender said licence I have 28 days to decide whether or not to pay or go to court.

The ticket I have clearly gives me 28 days to pay. It tells me how to pay in person or by telephone. It is not a 7 day surrender notice.

You are talking nonsense.

It really is quite simple: You was given a 'provisional' fixed penalty offer at the roadside. It is provisional on the basis that (a) you have eight points or less on your licence and (b) that you produce and surrender your licence at a police station as nominated by you. You produced the licence, but did not surrender it.

At that point the provisional fixed penalty notice was not substantiated, and you will be dealt with in due course by summons for the alleged offence.

Had you surrendered your licence, you would have substantiated the fixed penalty, and that is when the twenty eight days starts where you can choose to accept the fixed penalty offer, and pay the sixty pound fine, or you can decline the offer and request a court hearing.

Because you have never been deemed to have had a fixed penalty offer (because you did not surrender your licence as is required) you have never been in the fixed penalty system. This of course was explained to you at the time you produced:
QUOTE
I went to the sty 6 days later and produced. The desk officer tried to keep my licence. I objected. She siad if you don't leave it you can't take the fixed penalty. I say I've got 28 days and want to check some proceedural stuff. She says if you take it back you can't take the fixed penalty.


You chose to ignore the advice of the person at the counter (who deals with these everyday) and took your licence. At that point you gave up your opportunity of paying the sixty pounds and avoiding court.

To continue to argue that you have a case is futile. You have been advised this by a number of people on here.
fossn
Posted by jobo on this thread

this happen to me, in just the circumstances you describe of being told the wrong info at the desk and turning down the chance of an fpn,

i though in for a penny, infor a pound and took it to court and won


This would seem to indicate that there are people who are being misled.

the ticket does not have anything on it to say it is conditional on surrendering my licence or anything else.

To accept blindly the injustice heaped on the motorist by the system is the most stupid thing anyone can do. there should be a clearly laid out ticket to be issued at the roadside stating you have not surrendered your licence and have 7 days to do so in order to get an FPN. A 'provisional' FPN without any indication that it is a conditional one is not sufficient for the law to be followed as stated in s54.

it does matter what is on a ticket which is issued as a legally enforced document. If it states I have 28 days to pay and tells me how to pay it is an FPN. Doesn't matter if someone says it isn't it is.

the desk officer didn't say if you surrender your licence I will issue a 28 day FPN. She said if I didn't surrender it I no longer had the right to a 28day FPN. thereby fuelling my belief that I already had one. os she siad I can't issue a 28 day FPN without you surrendering your licence we might have got further. I made it clear I wanted more time to decide if I wanted to plead guilty or not. She made it clear that by not surrendering I didn't have that option but never stated any other option. I thought I already had the FPN but I didn't.

In conclusion to continue to argue my case is not futile. Jobo says s/he took it to court and won. I am going to do the same and post my victory on here specially for you.

Pancras
QUOTE (fossn @ Sat, 12 Mar 2011 - 19:57) *
In conclusion to continue to argue my case is not futile. Jobo says s/he took it to court and won. I am going to do the same and post my victory on here specially for you.

I wish you the best of luck.
southpaw82
I am concerned that the victory may be nothing more than a trip to court and being awarded 3 points and a £60 fine (i.e. the same as the FPN).
fossn
I am hoping to get some information on anyone who may have fought this before.

I have scrutinised the ticket and section 4 gives ways to pay.

It states that payment must be made within 28 days of the offence which is untrue unless it is a FPN which it can't be because I didn't give my licence to the officer.

I also have the statement of facts from the officer and he states... I issued Foss with a Fixed Penalty Ticket...

This contravenes the s54 rules because he didn't take my licence and he should have issued a 7 day notice.
The Rookie
There is plenty of case law to support the fact that errors on the FPN are irrelevant to whether or not an offence was commited before it was issued.

Jobo won on an issue unrelated to the fpn as I recall (namely the CPS forgot to bring any evidence).

Simon
andy_foster
Presumably you are referring to DPP v Holden - a defective COFP under s. 75 RTOA 1988 was not a bar to subsequent prosecution some time after the suspended enforcement period had expired. It did not address the question of a fixed penalty being paid when the FPN shouldn't have been issued (if the notice which is both an FPN and not an FPN) is deemed to have been an FPN. How many legal arguments, whether tenuous or not, would enable you to cite Schrodinger's cat?
fossn
My first move is to plead not guilty and have the officer attend.

I will then confirm his statement that he issued a fixed penalty ticket as he said in his statement. I would then ask what a fixed penalty ticket is, why he issued it etc. If he tries syaing it is a FPN/7 day surrender I query the box he ticked on the ticket asking me to produce but not ticked the box asking me to surrender. I ask where the 7 day notification is. I then produce a copy of s54 where it clearly states what to do. I then refer to the words in section 4 of the ticket where it states the fine has to be paid in 28 days which is not true.

I go on to ask how many tickets like this have been issued, whether the desk officer would have issued another FPN as required. AN FOI should reveal how many FPNs have been issued by front desk staff when licences have been surrendered. Worst case scenario the constabulary are looking at having thousands of cases overturned. The CPS may withdraw. In any case I argue the FPN is erroneous and non enforceable.

I move for dismissal. Depends on the clerk to the justices as well. I have fought speed tickets before on technical grounds and won. The clrek loved it. If s/he is sympathetic they may advise the magistrates to dismiss or adjourn.

The magistrates may bottle out and find me guilty. I appeal. I have done this before as well and won. The judge will be more impartial than magistrates who only carry out the clerks orders.

Logician
QUOTE
I will then confirm his statement that he issued a fixed penalty ticket as he said in his statement. I would then ask what a fixed penalty ticket is, why he issued it etc. If he tries syaing it is a FPN/7 day surrender I query the box he ticked on the ticket asking me to produce but not ticked the box asking me to surrender. I ask where the 7 day notification is. I then produce a copy of s54 where it clearly states what to do. I then refer to the words in section 4 of the ticket where it states the fine has to be paid in 28 days which is not true.

He will no doubt say that it is a provisional FPN, as your licence was not surrendrered to him, which could be converted into an actual FPN by surrender of your licence at the station. He will point to the ticked box asking you to produce your licence at the station as the notice to do so. He will agree that the wording of section 4 should state 28 days of the offence if the FPN was fully issued on the date of the offence, or 28 days if it was issued at the police station, but as you declined to surrender your licence the FPN was not issued at the station, so the time by which it should be paid was not relevant to you.
QUOTE
I go on to ask how many tickets like this have been issued, whether the desk officer would have issued another FPN as required. AN FOI should reveal how many FPNs have been issued by front desk staff when licences have been surrendered. Worst case scenario the constabulary are looking at having thousands of cases overturned. The CPS may withdraw. In any case I argue the FPN is erroneous and non enforceable.

It will be pointed out that the number of other FPN notices is entirely irrelevant to your case. The CPS will say that there is no attempt to enforce the FPN, accepting the FPN or not is the decision of the motorist, you decided not to, and the FPN is now irrelevant as you are in court to answer a summons for speeding, a point that will no doubt be supported by the legal adviser who will advise the magistrates that you have been properly summonsed and they should proceed to hear the case.
QUOTE
The magistrates may bottle out and find me guilty. I appeal. I have done this before as well and won. The judge will be more impartial than magistrates who only carry out the clerks orders.

You will explain your complaints about the FPN procedure. The judge will ask why that is relevant to your appeal. You will say you were misled. The judge will say that is all irrelevant, the FPN is an alternative to the matter progressing to court, since it came to court and you were convicted, nothing about the FPN is relevant and dismiss your appeal.
fossn
if the FPN is irrelevant then there is nothing to summons me for.

A notice of prosecution must be issued.

No such notice has been issued.

I bet you just pay up every time the government or its agents ask you to.

Might as well just bend over and say please be gentle.
nemo
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 13:22) *
if the FPN is irrelevant then there is nothing to summons me for.

There is - the offence which was alleged you had committed at the time the officer pulled you over.

QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 13:22) *
A notice of prosecution must be issued.

None is required where the alleged offender has received either a warning of prosecution at the time, or a notice under s.54(4) RTOA 1988 (provisional fixed penalty) has been given.

QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 13:22) *
No such notice has been issued.

As above.

Logician
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 13:22) *
I bet you just pay up every time the government or its agents ask you to.

Might as well just bend over and say please be gentle.

There is no point starting an argument you have no hope of winning, not only do you look pretty stupid putting forward fallacious arguments but the eventual outcome is liable to be a good deal more painful than you could have settled for.
However, have it your way, especially if you have masochistic tendencies!
Pancras
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 13:22) *
I bet you just pay up every time the government or its agents ask you to.

Might as well just bend over and say please be gentle.

I can't help but thinking that your view of this whole procedure is severely misguided, but you are persisting with it, so I will be interested to see what the outcome is.

You was stopped after being alleged to have committed an offence. You was offered a fixed penalty at the time instead of being prosecuted, however as you did not surrender your licence at the time, the fixed penalty was provisional on the basis that you complied with the requirement to produce and surrender your licence at a police station within 7 days.

This would have been in the small print on the back of the ticket, and there would have been two boxes on the front, one stating: Provisional Notice - Licence not surrendered, and another stating Full Notice - Licence surrendered, presumably the 'provisional notice' box was ticked.

On arrival at the Police Station, you was again told by the desk clerk of the requirement to surrender your licence, and you failed to do so, meaning that you lost the right to a Fixed Penalty. Because you was issued with a notice at the time of the offence no NIP is needed, even though that notice was subsequently not substantiated as a result of you failing to comply with the requirements.

So you will proceed to court, and it will be as if no FPN has ever been issued. The magistrates won't be interested in all of your legal arguments about the validity of the FPN, because the legislation is quite clear.

As I said before, I wish you the best of luck, but to continue to argue that you are correct in the face of the advice of a number of contributors on this site is odd. Time will tell who was correct though...
fossn
Would anyone with legal qualifications and a job as a barrister like to make themselves known.

I have been messaging privately on here and elsewhere.

s54 does not say to issue a provisional FPN.

I am literate enough to have read all the ticket very carefully. Nowhere does it state it is provisional. Nowhere does it state I have to surrender my licence within 7 days to get a 'real' FPN.

I am doing this for myself and for all those who mistakenly believe the state is always right and tells the truth to all its citizens.

If anyone on here could offer a definitive LEGAL opinion I would be interested. otherwise its just defeatist to assume the police state is in the right. There are plenty of cases where the state has been proved wrong and not acting according to law.
Pancras
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 15:48) *
I am literate enough to have read all the ticket very carefully. Nowhere does it state it is provisional. Nowhere does it state I have to surrender my licence within 7 days to get a 'real' FPN.

Really?

Care to scan and post your notice, having removed all of the identifying parts?
nemo
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 15:48) *
s54 does not say to issue a provisional FPN.

Whilst it may not use the word 'provisional', the procedure and effect of s.54 RTA 1988 is clear enough:

QUOTE (s.54 Road Traffic Act 1988)
(4) Where—

(a ) the offence appears to the constable to involve obligatory endorsement, and

(b ) the person concerned does not produce his licence and its counterpart for inspection by the constable,

the constable may give him a notice stating that if, within seven days after the notice is given, he produces the notice together with his licence and its counterpart in person to a constable or authorised person at the police station specified in the notice (being a police station chosen by the person concerned) and the requirements of subsection (5)(a) and (b) below are met he will then be given a fixed penalty notice in respect of the offence.

and...

QUOTE (s.54 Road Traffic Act 1988)
(5) If a person to whom a notice has been given under subsection (4) above produces the notice together with his licence and its counterpart in person to a constable or authorised person at the police station specified in the notice within seven days after the notice was so given to him and the following requirements are met, that is—

(a ) the constable or authorised person is satisfied, on inspecting the licence and its counterpart, that he would not be liable to be disqualified under section 35 of this Act if he were convicted of the offence, and

(b ) he surrenders his licence and its counterpart to the constable or authorised person to be retained and dealt with in accordance with this Part of this Act,

the constable or authorised person must give him a fixed penalty notice in respect of the offence to which the notice under subsection (4) above relates.


Pancras
QUOTE (nemo @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 15:57) *
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 15:48) *
s54 does not say to issue a provisional FPN.

Whilst it may not use the word 'provisional', the procedure and effect of s.54 RTA 1988 is clear enough:

This has already been explained once, but the OP either doesn't get it, or doesn't want to get it.
picko
It seems to me that the OP thought that by surrendering his licence meant that he was accepting 3 points and a £60 fine. Now in hindsight he realises that this would not have been the case has decided to fight any summons based upon this mis-understanding. The best you can realistically hope to get from a court appearance is the original 3 points and £60 fine and only if you get your facts right.

Whilst the interpretation that you have been mis-led is quite right, to a point, I don't see you getting away with no fine and points in court. Faced with a wrong defence your fine/costs could be higher. If you accept you were speeding and woudl have accepted the points/fine you should concentrate on getting it set at that level once again
southpaw82
QUOTE (fossn @ Mon, 14 Mar 2011 - 15:48) *
If anyone on here could offer a definitive LEGAL opinion I would be interested


I already have but since it doesn't agree with your non-legal opinion you seem to have ignored it. I've explained how s. 54 works and how your situation leads to a legal argument which could go either way but you seem more interested in being bolshie than learning about the law.
andy_foster
I note that we are advising (or in many cases arguing with) the OP on the wording of a notice that he has, but has not seen fit to show us. I have yet to see an endorseable FPN which does not purport to double up an an s. 54(4) notice (or 'provisional' FPN to be more descriptive - not that such a term appears in the statute), but I have not seen FPNs from every police force service.
If the OP was issued an endorseable FPN which does not have an alter ego, that would potentially make the case far more interesting, and far stronger, but I'm not holding my breath.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2019 Invision Power Services, Inc.