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JDale82
Hi guys,

First time postee on here after searching the net to help with my predicament. I havent had a PCN before (lucky me) but as it always happens i've now got 3 in one week!!!

I started work in Wembley last week (Oct 11th) and drive from nth Hampshire everyday and have been presented with 3 PCN's for driving down a bus lane on Wembley High Road. These were on 3 seperate mornings and have arrived in the post a week after they happened.....3 consecutive days of recieving £120 fines through the post was not fun mad.gif !!

Anyway, I did drive down the bus lane so I cant say that i didnt, however the reason was because the bus lane finishes about 5 meters before a set of traffic lights allowing normal traffic to line up side by side. No one was filling the gap so i thought i would, this meant driving down the bus lane for about 10-15 meters. I probably would be happy to pay the reduced fee of £60 for 1 of the PCN's but i think 3 is OTT. I know pleading ignorance about bus lanes wont wash even though im a 'country lad' so i wanted to know if there was a way of appealing the charge succesfully!!

I have called Brent Council and spoke to a lady from the enquiries, i asked if there was a limit on fines and she said no 'we often get people using the lane on the way to work, going home for lunch and then using it on the way home and they will get 3 in a day'. I was shocked at this but knew she wouldnt hold any power to waive the fee so thanked her for her time and hung up.

Can someone please give me some advice.

P.S I'm getting the PCN's scanned today so will update this thread with them within the next 6 hrs.....feel free to comment until then!!

Many thanks!
J_Edgar
I don't recall ever having seen a Brent LLA 1996 PCN previously, I'll come back when the scans are up.
strollingplayer
If it was only 10-15 metres (this is about 4-5 car lengths) and you were turning onto another road, the contravention is de minimis. AIUI, a bus lane is not supposed to run all the way to a stop line if it is on the left hand side and there is a left turn ahead (for what should be obvious reasons).

QUOTE (TSM 5)
17.8 Where a bus lane passes a junction with a major left-turning flow into the side road, the line to diagram 1049 should be replaced with a broken line to diagram 1010 (see figure 17-1). The broken line should commence 30 m in advance of the junction,
and have the same width as the bus lane line.
It should be accompanied by the advisory direction arrow to diagram 1050 (varied to show a left turn). Detailed dimensions of the permitted variants are shown on the working drawing P 1050 (see para 1.17). At other junctions, the diagram 1049 marking should be terminated approximately 10 m before the junction (or at the junction if the minor road is one-way towards the major road), recommencing beyond the junction in combination with a marking to diagram 1010 (see figure 17-1).

17.9 With-flow bus lanes should normally be stopped short of the Stop line at traffic signal controlled junctions and the carriageway marked with an arrow to diagram 1050 (see figure 17-1). The purpose of this “set-back” is to ensure that full saturation flow can be sustained throughout the green period at traffic signals, thus minimising the delays to other traffic. It also facilitates, and makes safer, left turns at the junction. As a general guide, the length of the set-back (in metres) should normally be twice the minimum green time (in seconds), although it may be necessary to adjust this if there are special local site conditions or to take account of the variations in green time in active-response UTC systems. A with-flow bus lane should be brought up to the Stop line at a traffic signal only if a reduction in capacity of the junction is acceptable, if safe provision can be made for any left-turning traffic and if right-turning traffic can be accommodated in such a way that it does not restrict flow in the ahead lanes.


The council always has the power to cancel a PCN, so anyone that ever tells you that they don't (other than in a personal capacity) is lying, and fettering the council's discretion.

At some point, you will be demanding a copy of the video evidence. Do not accept stills as a substitute, and do not accept attending the council offices as a compromise. You are accused of a contravention which carries a statutory penalties, you are entitled as a matter of public law to see the evidence being used against you. You would be requesting the "supporting information" of the "alleged incident" when the time comes.
JDale82
Thanks for the replies so far. I can't get my scanner working so no doc's to view yet however, after viewig other bus lane PCN's the Brent Council PCN seems to hold significantly less detail. Good or bad I'm not sure, possibly they have missed something vital which would deem it unenforceable or they have made it this way so there is less for them to be tripped up on.

In reply to Strolling Member , yes there is a left turn which does make sense why the bus lane finishes and it does allow you to drive straight on, it should be visible on the scan but the pictures are small and grainy. How long would it take for them to send the video and how would this helpy appeal seeing as I know I drove in the bus lane??

I also looked at the sineage on Friday and will take a picture and post it on Monday.

Thanks guys
DancingDad
Mobile phone or digital camera is good enough for pictures.... see how to post piccies in stickies above.
If you have a close up or macro mode it'llnormally get best results

Could you post a streetview link as well ?
I've just taken a virtual wander down there and can't identify from your description...closest is this but no traffic lights ???
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&...263.75,,0,-4.25
JDale82
Your close Dancing Dad, it's the junction where High Road meets Lancelot/Ealing road. I was travelling east bound. You can see the bus lane on google maps street view but it's dated and changed slightly since then, you will get an idea though.

Fingers crossed I can get the scan on today and will get pics on over lunch tomorrow.

Thanks
Bagshot
Also, what is the actual location as described on the PCN. If it is ambiguous you have a good appeal point. Wembley High Road is highly unlikely to be good enough. We can't tell where the alleged contravention took place. We should be able to from their description of the location.
Michael 194
Wembley High road doesn't exist!

Its just called High Road.

Look at this from streetmap

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=51757...ds.srf&sq=1

Thart on its own could be an appeal point
Bagshot
Royal Mail call it High Road, Wembley. High Streets and High Roads are disambiguated this way throughout London. High Road on its own really would be difficult. Wembley is not enough to say whereabouts on the high road it was. It would need a junction with another road to be reasonable.
strollingplayer
As for the location, "High Road" is a common enough name that it should always be distinguished, and if there are multiple stretches of bus lane they need to be specific as to which one.
JDale82
It does say High Road, Wembley on the PCN. Is this sufficient information for them to enforce the PCN? It also states the Camera number.

Pictures are below and i have put them in order of travel with one of them pointing away from the direction of travel.

PCN pics will be on tomorrow, i stupidly left them on my desk at work tonight!
fuel__2001
At a glance I'm not sure that sign is a permitted variant, I will have a better look later.

Edit -

Managed to have a look at the regs and this sign isn't a permitted variant. Under the regs the only word in the picture of the bus should be 'local'.

Now go back to the EA and ask them to send you a copy of the special authorisation for the sign.
JDale82
OK, so i have managed to get some pic of the 3rd PCN i have received....PLEASE FORGIVE THE POOR QUALITY, I nearly added a new scanner to the large bill after it nearly went out the window!! Hopefully you can click on the attachment and zoom in, i can so fingers crossed.

All the PCN's have the same blurb on them, only difference being the date, which to be honest im not sure i could contest on as i drive up there daily.

Fuel_2001, interesting about the reg's on the sign. So you say i should request a copy of the special dispensation for using this sign?

Any help or comments (constructive and not about the quality of the pics tongue.gif ) are welcome!!

Thank you for all the responses so far!!
DancingDad
You've left your registration in.
And type dates of notices for us will you so we can track dates.
When appealing keep the three as seperate entities, even though chances are same points will be used. Keep your paperwork filed for each seperate so you don't get confused and don't confuse council.

Point of uncertain location is certainly worth trying

And once again we have issue of not allowing informal appeals...which I know aren't prescribed by the acts but is there a common law argument ??
Bagshot
Patas case 2060381000 amongst many others. Admittedly this particular one is a box junction not a bus lane. Would need to dig a bit to see if the same bit of law applies, but basically the case (and others) hinged upon the fact that from the PCN it wasn't possible to determine to exact location of the alleged contravention.
strollingplayer
How long is Hig Road, Wembley? How long is the bus lane? How many junctions across it? How many different bus lanes are there?

These are important questions - if you can't figure out where the contravention may have occurred from the location given, you have a potential winner.
Scaramouche
QUOTE (Bagshot @ Wed, 27 Oct 2010 - 03:58) *
Patas case 2060381000 amongst many others. Admittedly this particular one is a box junction not a bus lane. Would need to dig a bit to see if the same bit of law applies, but basically the case (and others) hinged upon the fact that from the PCN it wasn't possible to determine to exact location of the alleged contravention.



This is it: http://www.davidmarq.com/bama/Adamou%20v%2...02060381000.pdf

You may also wish to consider the grounds for representations as expressed in the Act, and then compare with the PCN:

Representations against penalty charge notice or enforcement notice

2(1)Where it appears to a person on whom a penalty charge notice has been served under section 4 (Penalty charge notices under Part II) of this Act, or paragraph 4 (1) below, or a person on whom an enforcement notice has been served under paragraph 1 above (in this Schedule referred to as “the recipient”) that one or other of the grounds mentioned in sub-paragraph (4) below is satisfied, he may make representations to that effect to the council who served the notice on him.

(2)Any representations under this paragraph must be made in such form as may be specified by the councils, acting through the Joint Committee.

(3)The council may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice or enforcement notice in question was served.

(4)The grounds referred to in sub-paragraph (1) above are—

(a)where the penalty charge notice was served pursuant to the said section 4 or, where an enforcement notice was served, that the recipient—

(i)never was the owner of the vehicle in question;

(ii)had ceased to be its owner before the date on which the penalty charge was alleged to have become payable; or

(iii)became its owner after that date;

(b)that there was no breach of an order or regulations of the type described in subsection (2) of the said section 4;

©that at the time the alleged breach of such order or regulations took place the recipient was not in charge of the vehicle.
Dannydp
I was caught out at exactly the same place and it seems like the layout is bread and butter for Brent council. I am locally based in Wembley and am aware that within 15 meters length the Bus lane ends so I took a decision to break-out and move over to buslane to utilise the space but it seems the wise decision then was a silly one.

I use company car so the notice has gone to Company and it is only after 11 days I have been notified that they have paid £65.00 in fine and will charge £30.00 in admin fee, that makes me repent another decision of mine (Why on earth I decided to opt for company car?).

Anyway, need your advise if you successfully managed to fight your case against Brent council? If so your help will be greatly appreciated.

I share your pain brother.
2cupsofcoffee
Danny, you need to start your own thread for your own case, including scanning, redacting and posting up all (ALL) paperwork received. Use an external host (e.g. tinypic) and post IMG codes.
Dannydp
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