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vivaladaz
hi guys,

basically about 6 months ago i was clocked doing 86 in a 70,
it was from a mobile camera,
The vehicle is leased to my company for me to drive so anything in relation goes firstly to the lease company an then forwarded to my company.
i received the letter from my office at work for the speeding fine and was obviously asking for the drivers details, i sent this off along with
a couple of excuses etc etc.
i have now had a letter turn up still addressed to my company for a court summons with the offence of "failing to provide drivers identity"

im not really sure ho to go about this..as i sub contract for the company and my manager is kind of not interested and just pretty much leaving it up to me..

now do i turn up at court and say that i am the driver and i did send details of this, or will they look at this as the usual excuse....?
what are the consequences?

im kinda stuck in a catch 22 issue here....

one more thing... the court summons is only mentioning the failure to provide driver details and not the actual speeding....??
jobo
assuming they did in fact get it ? what EXACTLY did you write on the form AND in your letter

Who is the summons addressed to ? you or the company secretary etc
vivaladaz
the form is in the grid style in which i gave my details and address
i also stated on the letter that there was no sign or warnings of the "hidden" mobile unit,

the summons is addressed directly to the company
peterguk
QUOTE (vivaladaz @ Mon, 18 Oct 2010 - 17:04) *
the court summons is only mentioning the failure to provide driver details and not the actual speeding....??


Sounds as though they never received your reply. If that's the case, they don't know who was driving, so can't do anyone for speeding.

Was the S.172 you replied to addressed to you or your company? You say it came from your office.....

Did you send Recorded or Special Delivery?
vivaladaz
no it as sent just normal 1st class..... doh

and yes the form was addressed to my company,
jobo
?????????

right well it seems they have cocked up greatly somewhere, either they have summonsed your employer instead of you or they have lost all the replies they did get ?


the good news is its your employers problem and not yours

youve met you obligation by replying,

tell you boss to post here
BaggieBoy
It sounds like they never received it, did you send it special delivery or some other trackable method?

If the summons has been sent to the company, then any conviction can only result in a fine, a company cannot be given points.
peterguk
QUOTE (vivaladaz @ Mon, 18 Oct 2010 - 17:23) *
and yes the form was addressed to my company,


As already stated, company's fault. They should have completed the form, not given it to you to deal with.
vivaladaz
yes i guess so...

although its only a small company with just me and another driver, and i get on well with the boss, so im kinda in a awkward postion...
because he is pretty dam ignorant i can see him getting me to go to court on behalf of the company!
hmmmmm

yes i guess the ball is in thier court really, although i do sub contract for them im not technically an "employee" would this make it be up to me to forward details??
Transit man
QUOTE (vivaladaz @ Mon, 18 Oct 2010 - 17:28) *
i can see him getting me to go to court on behalf of the company!
hmmmmm

Which you could do as a representative of the company. The speeding "problem" has now disappeared, it's now a failure to furnish, the relevant point being, who is the summons addressed to?

QUOTE (vivaladaz @ Mon, 18 Oct 2010 - 17:31) *
yes i guess the ball is in thier court really, although i do sub contract for them im not technically an "employee" would this make it be up to me to forward details??

If you have never received an nip in your own name, then it's nowt to do with you, regardless of your employment status/friendship etc.
vivaladaz
the summons is addressed to my company,

if i did go to court representing the company and give a guilty plea what kind of fine and points are involved? on the summons it says the court fee ill be 35 pound plus any fines

and yes technically i shouldnt go anywhere as nothing on the nip has my name on it!!
jobo
tell him he will get hit with the thick end of a grand , see if that gets his attention

we are still working on the assumption the reply was recieved, if it wasnt, he has a defence if they believe it was posted

or if they are objecting to you completing it, there a defence that the substance of the requirement was met, ie the driver was named was met
vivaladaz
hmmm well i have a meeting with him tomorrow to show him the summons etc, see what he says and how he wants to play this,
the court is a bloody 2 hour drive away which isnt much better
peterguk
QUOTE (vivaladaz @ Mon, 18 Oct 2010 - 17:31) *
although i do sub contract for them im not technically an "employee" would this make it be up to me to forward details??


No. The NIP/S.172 was addressed to the company. The company should have replied with your details, and not given it to you to deal with.

Then you would have received your own S.172, addressed to you, where you would have confirmed you were the driver.
vivaladaz
just dont fancy takng the brunt of this...
seems as though i will be holding my hands up for something i basically have got away ith?

peterguk, yes your right and i ill mention this tomoro when i see him,
ill post up tomorro if it turns out ill be going to court for the company..........

thanks for your advice guys, much appreciated
The Rookie
The S172 request clearly says the addressee has to respond, this your boss failed to do, that was his call and now his liability, it is his fine and not yours, I suggest you give him the summons and tell him it's his to sort out. It's rough, but that's life!

Simon
andy_foster
You say that the notice was addressed to your company.

Do you mean the company that you work for, or a company that you own?
Is the company a limited company, or a partnership or simply Joe Bloggs, trading as ACME rockets?


Assuming that it is the company that you work for, and that they are a limited company...

If the notice was addressed to the company that you work for, any liability under s. 172 to provide the required information rests with them. Whilst I can see no reason that you could not provide the information on their behalf, any failure to do so would be a failure on their part.

The company (who you work for, but are not employed by directly) have been summoned. The good news is that companies cannot be given points. The bad news is that the fine tends to be higher - if convicted.

You are potentially a witness that the information was sent to them - because you sent the information to them. I'm not sure whether you can 'represent' the company in court.

If the court finds (on the balance of probabilities) that the response was properly posted, that might or might not constitute compliance with the legal requirement (AFAIK there is no case law on this narrow point - but if the address to respond to is a PO box, you would have no choice but to post the response (could not hand deliver) it is perhaps difficult to see how an offence could be committed if a response was lost in the post - but in general where statute requires something to be provided, it has to actually be delivered.

However, a far more straightforward defence is that of reasonable practicability (s. 172(7)(b) RTA 1988).
If the court find that the response was properly posted, then unless the scammers wrote back to say that no response had been received, the defendant would have no reason to believe that the requirement had not been complied with, and it would therefore not be reasonably practicable to subsequently comply with it by sending it again.

If a reminder had been sent and ignored, then the reasonable practicability defence would not work.

The bottom line, assuming that the prosecution case is up to scratch, and as it appears to be, is that the defendant needs to convince the court that the response was sent. The fact that the witness is not the defendant potentially helps with credibility.


Alternatively, it is possible that the response was received, but they didn't like your comments and decided to summon the defendant for providing a response that they didn't like - which is not necessarily an offence. What does the witness statement from the tubby in the CTO say about notices sent and received?
vivaladaz
hi andy,

she says....
"following a written response from the registered keeper, at bristol, i caused to be sent on 13th april 2010 by first class post a notice of intended prosecution and request for details of driver under s.172 road traffic act 1988,

to: company secretary

of: " my company"
the nominated driver of pj***** i hereby produce the copy as exhibit no 1...blah blah blah

i hereby produce a standard copy of page 2 reply to notice as exhibit no 2 blah blah blah

no response in accordance with s.172 rta 1988 has been recieved....




Logician
As you say you are a sub-contractor to the company and not even an employee, the court should not accept you as a representative of the company. Your boss is going to have to get involved whether he likes it or not.
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